IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

 

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

 

I'm a merc since launch. I have tons to complain about. However, Icehawk is right. I would like more engagement from the developers and the fact we got 2 posts from you so quickly in a single thread is a step in the right direction. We just want to be heard, and thats not asking too much.

 

If I may make a suggestion, or rather steal an idea, why not have class advocates? Dedicated players of a single AC who listen to their respective individual communities and complie bugs/fixes/suggestions into a single stickied thread at the top of each AC forum? It would make it far easier to both community and develpers to see what issues need to be addressed. The community will see the top issues and all current feedback from developers. Its a win-win scenario. Just a thought. =)

IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

 

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

 

Yeah, I'd just like to point out that the mess this community is in, and the vitriol spouted on these forums (part of which I'll admit I participate in) is a largely self-inflicted wound on your (BW's) part. The lack of communication has turned questions into rants.

 

I get that you want to 'reward' good behaviour, but if you continue to skip the threads and posts that have over time become heated (or worse), then you'll just let the wounds fester. You have a lot (and I mean a LOT) of damage repair to do. Fix the problems with communication rather than sulking and taking your ball home (again, not aimed at you personally).

 

On to the meat of the issue:

 

Everyone, it's important to remember that the answers Jonathan gave are just a few examples of metrics our analytics team looks at for certain specific purposes. Class balancing overall is much more complicated than looking at a couple stats - these were just a few examples of things the analytics team looks at and it wasn't intended as a comprehensive deep-dive into PvP balancing. It also wasn't a statement that we feel everything is completely perfect. We're always looking at player feedback, testing, and much more to to adjust the classes, and will continue to do so.

 

Evidence STRONGLY suggests otherwise. Balance is not improving. The difference between the most and least optimal classes is larger than it has ever been, and CC, considered by many to have long been out of control was made worse. The devs don't seem to get what is obviously wrong to anyone who spends any real amount of time PvPing - which has caused, and continues to cause a great deal of frustration. It is like they are flying blind - and posts about statistics and their use are an obvious target.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Jherad

Class advocates seldom help long term. Now, if they came up with a small committee (private) of opinions to solicit, that might be more useful.

 

Still, if the dev staff (someone) is spending about 30 minutes a day reading through the PvP forum, over the course of a few weeks they should have no diffuclty seperating the actual reality from the QQing that makes up 90% of this forum.

 

Oh, and I agree with the last paragraph of Jherad's above.

Edited December 5, 2012 by islander

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

 

+ 1 for State of the Game and Q & A dedicated to PVP, an excellent idea.

Class advocates seldom help long term. Now, if they came up with a small committee (private) of opinions to solicit, that might be more useful.

 

Still, if the dev staff (someone) is spending about 30 minutes a day reading through the PvP forum, over the course of a few weeks they should have no diffuclty seperating the actual reality from the QQing that makes up 90% of this forum.

 

Oh, and I agree with the last paragraph of Jherad's above.

 

Great points, I agree with them all!

 

I really like your suggestion of a small (private) committee as well. I think having several players, representing all classes and skill levels, would be best, but that may be too large of a pool - 8 minimum. Selecting 1 person narrows the feedback to only that players perspective. I'd love to see the opinions of players starting PvP (basically the challenges they see), players who casually PvP and those who have mastered it (top Ranked players). Have them sign NDAs and make a private forum for them.

Its good to see a nice thread but here is my take.

 

Some classes like shadows with stelth can tip the tides of the objectives like no other class stealth restelth sprint and defences make them better than others at protecting and capturing objectives.

 

Fix by Buff mercs a better stelth scan with snear Vig guardian presance proc an icon if aany enemy is in 10m

 

 

Smash/ sweep has a counter 2 classes have 30% aoe damage reduction Tactic/AP and Infili and ss/snipers have 60% .

 

And force bubble could work the other way when it breakes u can not be cc'd for 3 sec just need to be higher up the tree.

Absolutely. Just like WoW failed to do this, refusing to have seperate effects for PvP and PvE ultimately hurt the game. Any game.

 

PVE and PVP balance can be achieved by a bigger variety of gear set bonus. I use Mercs as an ex PVE wise they are fine just add set bonus on pvp gear that makes the agro dump reset tech override and knock back. Plus make knock back reduce accuracy by 50% for 3 sec and the merc is fixed . You don't need sepperat trees just gear.

Edited December 5, 2012 by RyderQuanTy
grammer

Great points, I agree with them all!

 

I really like your suggestion of a small (private) committee as well. I think having several players, representing all classes and skill levels, would be best, but that may be too large of a pool - 8 minimum. Selecting 1 person narrows the feedback to only that players perspective. I'd love to see the opinions of players starting PvP (basically the challenges they see), players who casually PvP and those who have mastered it (top Ranked players). Have them sign NDAs and make a private forum for them.

 

Yeah, not gonna happen in a million years (no offense intended to you). Community engagement is at an all time low - even forum moderation has gone to the dogs. A separate forum for a select few with close access to devs is asking a lot even for a game which hasn't pared down its staff to a skeleton crew. Which this one has.

 

All of this is just so much forum wankery (like the class feedback threads) without BW buy-in.

For 12 months I've been saying that ToR's ingame statistical collection system is revolutionary but the human (developer's) interpretation of those statistics is fatally flawed. Those flaws have been mentioned by others in this thread, but principally revolve around the inability of the collected statistics to control for variance in player quality/skill. I think very few people in the subscriber community doubt these issues anymore.

 

The real question is can BW summon the courage to admit they can no longer use their ingame statistics as a metric to manage class (im)balance? And here the indications are not good. Jonathan Crow's Q&A shows that the ingame statistics still occupy a large amount of dev time and analysis. They probably still have multiple bodies devoted to management and maintenance of that system. Those people will argue til their last breath that the ingame statistical system should still be used - their jobs depend on it. They are an institutional road block to change. The sad thing is, if the code for that statistics collection were completely ripped out, it would relieve server CPU cycles and actually make the game more responsive.

Yeah, not gonna happen in a million years (no offense intended to you). Community engagement is at an all time low - even forum moderation has gone to the dogs. A separate forum for a select few with close access to devs is asking a lot even for a game which hasn't pared down its staff to a skeleton crew. Which this one has.

 

All of this is just so much forum wankery (like the class feedback threads) without BW buy-in.

Oh, I completely agree. I've given up hope that they'll ever change...just offering ideas for us to debate, not them to read.

 

For 12 months I've been saying that ToR's ingame statistical collection system is revolutionary but the human (developer's) interpretation of those statistics is fatally flawed.

This is EXACTLY the problem!!!

 

Numbers only tell PART of the story and it's easy to skew them to get your desired results. Look no further than the referenced Dev Blog and you'll see where he says Operation participation increased with the release of TFB, and that that was their intention...only a moron would have thought otherwise. New loot, new gear, new content...it's not that Operations suddenly became better, it's that it was NEW!!!

What a fail reply

 

They claim to love player feedback, yet there are 946 pages of topics in Merc PvP and there are maybe 3 dev replies, none of which have any information at all.

I**snip**

 

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

Hello,

 

First as general feedback on PvP, from a player perspective, it got worse in each iteration since 1.2.

 

For now the mains issue are:

• Way too much stuns
  
• Large disparate balance among the classes
  
• Gear having a too huge impact on combat outcome
  
• PvE changes impacting PvP
  
• Impossibility for PUG players to do ranked WZ
  
• Obliging pugs to fight againts pre-mades
  
• Being forced to play specific WZ even if we don't like them
  
• Lack of world PvP
  

 

More specifically I play both a Jug and a Gunnery Trooper in PvP.

 

For now I don't even log my Trooper anymore since you removed the knock back and reduced the range of the cryo grenade. Because, a gunnery Trooper was mostly fun in Hutball.

Now I can't anymore stop opponents nor knock them off either in defense or attack.

In the other WZ the Gunnery Trooper is mostly a static sheep.

 

Now the Jug while not perfect is still very fun.

 

 

Regarding the statistics, your data will tell you my Jugg always performs worse than the Tropper. Still with the Jugg I have a heavy impact on the team victory. However with the Trooper even being always in the top 3 DPSer I don't have such impact.

 

Thing is it's not because you deal lots of damage or die less than you have such an impact on a WZ outcome.

 

Let me take an example: with the Trooper I can do decent burst (but not enough to kill before being killed) and AoE damage, still at the end I'm dead and let's say the opponents are half alive. Thing is they'll have plenty time to heal up while I and team-mates re-spawn. However with my Jugg the damage is more directed, when I'm finished with an opponent or assisting a team mate it's game over for them huge difference.

=> Your stats won't tell you that.

 

With the Jugg I have more CC and can slow down and immobilize enemies a lot during a WZ.

The few seconds I delayed an opponent without even doing any damage, allowed me or my team mates to actually focus on less enemies and finish them off: big impact on say a caping or reaching a key point.

=> One again the data won't tell you that.

 

 

Then, if Hutball is such an issue with CC, you should put it apart from others WZ and either disable specific skills or have WZ effects changing them. Because the PvP now stands as having too often our keyboards being removed from ourselves. You have to admit it's very frustrating to keep watching your character being beaten like a rag doll.

 

 

So going forward, suggestion:

1. Seriously reduce stuns and roots chains
   
2. Give some beef to the mercs and gunery trooper and or mobility and use the feedback on the PvP classes topics you started.
   
3. Allow players to actually choose to which WZ to queue and allow them again to re-queue automatically
   
4. Start separating PvP skills from PvE ones
   
5. Reduce drastically the impact of Gear in PvP (cf Rift)
   
6. Allow players to opt out premades encounters
   
7. Allow players to opt in for ranked WZ PUGSonly
   
8. If possible add a teamspeak/ventrilo option for PvP (cf DDO)
   
9. Add more rewards: XP, Credits and gear in PvP
   
10. Allow players to jump into neutral cantias after WZ so they can socialize with their "enemies" (cf SWG)
    
11. Let players toggle a skip cut-scene in WZ (gets boring to space skip them after the first 1000 time)
    
12. Add mail boxes in the PvP mission zone in the space fleet if not better GTN too
    

 

 

One thing I would like to see is allow players to heal themselves more often.

Let me explain. It takes too long in PvP before being actually considered out of combat.

Thing is if a character is not actively being hit/shooted at then well, let him heal.

If the player was smart enough to get out of range/sight and isn't pursued actively then don't make him/her wait dozens of seconds to be able to start healing.

It's just frustrating to have to wait that long for the timer to finish.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Deewe

Everyone, it's important to remember that the answers Jonathan gave are just a few examples of metrics our analytics team looks at for certain specific purposes. Class balancing overall is much more complicated than looking at a couple stats - these were just a few examples of things the analytics team looks at and it wasn't intended as a comprehensive deep-dive into PvP balancing. It also wasn't a statement that we feel everything is completely perfect. We're always looking at player feedback, testing, and much more to to adjust the classes, and will continue to do so.

 

Thank you for replying. However, the problem here is that we do not believe you.

 

Why do we not believe you? Well, here's some reasons.

 

1- Dark Infusion for sorcs was bugged to double cast, which I think we can all agree being able to get off two instant big heals back to back was a big problem. However- rather than seeing if a single DI proc would still be a problem- as intended after all- it was simply removed altogether and resurgence's buff was made all but useless.

 

Either a- that was a grossly heavy handed nerf that went way past what was necessary, or b- you couldn't fix the bug so you broke the ability entirely. Either way, that doesn't look good.

 

2- 1.2 came out before you could look at any pre-season RWZ, you had nothing but uncompetitive pvp to balance off of- yet 1.2 had the largest (un)balancing changes the game has seen- to multiple classes at that. So, the only assumption is either a- you based those nerfs off of the whines of people who didn't know what they were talking about, or b- you based it off of metrics in normals which are packed with bad players rather than waiting to get stats from the best players in RWZ.

 

Either way- again, it doesn't look good.

 

3- Stun bubble- after months of asking for buffs to damage, mobility, healing cast times, synergy of high tier talents, pure builds- what do we get? A hybrid buff to CC.

 

Either a- you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to what we were saying, or b- you knew we had problems and tossed in something you should have known you were going to end up nerfing anyway just to appease us shortly.

 

Either way- do I need to keep saying this?

 

And now- we know you guys are looking at a nerf to sorc stun bubble, removing the group utility of it, etc... which, ironically if you removed it from being a group stun bubble buff- that would actually be not only a nerf from now, but a nerf from launch when it was a mez that at least effected everyone.

 

Hilarious isn't it?!

 

And you want me to sit here and say 'oh geez golly gee whiz pops, they have metrics, they know what's swell and what ain't!'

 

**** that noise. Do you think we're really that stupid? It looks like you're ignoring stats from RWZ, you're ignoring what your playerbase is saying, you're interpretting your metrics wrong- and you've been doing so for months while this game dropped from 2 million to half a million subs, went from dozens of strong pvp queue servers to a few, and went f2p.

 

We are past the point where we're going to just believe what you say- you took a game where you were at one point 'surprised how popular pvp is' to a point where there is a fire raging and rather than bringing in fire fighters you're sitting back roasting marshmallows.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP.

 

Keep in mind that this thread here appeared because people don't want to accept your data revealed in that answer. So State of Game focused on PvP is quite likely to be met with same reaction(not saying Q&A is any better, since reaction is pretty much same, plus "omg they picked wrong questions").

IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

 

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

 

The problem some of us have is we know these dev's aren't running their first rodeo. Some of us have played multiple mmo's over time and community feedback is a topic of concern in every one I've played. They've all had varying levels of feedback from the developers but from where we sit it looks like we've got to beg through you to hear anything. Any time you respond the post blows up and thrives but there are so many other threads that aren't addressed.

 

Any additional feedback at all is greatly appreciated and will help you keep subs.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Alizaro

IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

 

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

 

Seriously? I don't want to be utterly negative here, but pvp is one of the most ignored part of the game for the moment... how many times did we get the usual "we are looking into it" stuff, and yet nothing happens. How can you allow these things to go on for MONTHS? I actually don't mind if a class is a bit OP, I can deal with it (lolsmash maras), it happens. But what pisses me off is that mercenary class in basically non-existent in pvp, as well as dps operatives. And these are not beind addressed. How come? They are clearly broken, no doubt about it. And nothing is done about it. I don't even want to mention the also non-existent world pvp. Yeah, it's easier to just scrap it and never talk about it again... but is it something the players like... hell no. Ofc there comes the other problem with the engine capabilities, which is another topic.

 

So, to sum up, yo had plenty of feedback on these matters from the pvp community, and you say you appreciate it. Well, I don't think so. If you did, you would have done something about these issues by now. These are not problems introduced in the latest patch, they are around for quite a while. So what are you waiting for exactly?

Allison- Thank you for your response.

 

I Agree with several of my counterparts in this thread. When I first played my SORC in PVP I initially couldn't stand PVP for that reason. After several weeks of FACE rolls and getting the L2P out during my PVP education I found the following:

 

Bubble = Bad idea / Temp Fix to a lack of higher DPS for SORC/SAGE.

- DO NOT remove unless you plan on killing off SORC/SAGE's in all PVP or replace with serious DPS BUFF.

- While this does "Help" it's a bad solution long term (But the ONLY Utility a DPS SORC/SAGE Brings)

- Squishy class should be putting out the MOST if not EQUAL to our button smashing Warriors due to armor

Couple Classes lack TRUE DPS in PVP & PVE (You know SORC/SAGE is on the list)

- Seriously need to BUFF SORC's anyways (Same issue in PVE & PVP DPS Range)

- Can't speak to other classes, but I felt that having my face melted by a dual wielding button masher while stunned the whole time was not very fun to play.

- When in range I should be able to do just as much damage. (Then getting melted would seem okay since it got them off the CAP)

Overgeared "Pre-Made" groups slaughter PUG's = No FUN.

- EWH geared shouldn't be matched with anyone below 900 Expertise

- Live stream mentioned a solution in the works

You want to have FUN? Play a dual wielder or Stealth.

- Great advantages of both classes, but should have equal skills on all classes

- The FoTM just got a nerf, but rDPS classes should get a BUFF instead or NERF again.

 

My Thoughts (Basic / simple):

Healers = Very Squishy with high survival / heavy shield

mDPS = Spikey with good DPS

rDPS = Squishy with great DPS

Tank = Very Spikey with ok DPS

 

I now like to play PVP after learning the ropes and gear, but I'll take my Maurader instead due to the sheer difference in the BALANCE of the game and run within a PVP Pre-Made group. (Yes, I feel it's kinda silly that in order to have FUN I must use the same in-balance issues everyone has mentioned)

Edited December 5, 2012 by dscount

All this has to be taken with a grain of salt. There hasn't been any real and meaningful new development since 1.2 bombed and destroyed this game. Everything that came out after 1.2 was already in development. So anything that would be considered new was thrown down the well while EA fired half the dev team and reconsolidated to put the other half developing the free to play option to salvage what little they could from the long list of really poor choices that were made from beta on. No patch has had any real and meaningful testing done as evident by the game breaking bugs that have forced them to shut down the servers almost every patch including the ftp launch. PTR is a joke atm, the latest patch is nothing more than a bone thrown in for content that was interrupted due to the ftp development. The team will get time off for the holidays and then either the axe will start falling again or with a sigh of releif the devs can get to work actually making this game better. Don't expect any class balance ideas to go through until February or March, which for me will be way, way to late.

Thank you for replying. However, the problem here is that we do not believe you..

 

Please don't appoint yourself spokesman for the community. Less of the "we".

Please don't appoint yourself spokesman for the community. Less of the "we".

 

Agreed.

By the comments made by Jonothan I suppose they don't see statistics that include k/d ratios like this...

 

I'd personally like to see their calculations. I just don't see their "statistics" matching what actually goes on with the WZ matchup issues. Where are the K/D ratios for live WZs?

I'd personally like to see their calculations

 

Now that would be interesting. I liked the graph of % player base in type of play area over time (though the way it was presented didn't give you concurrent numbers logged in for each area, a more sensitive figure).

 

I'm in a bit of two minds actually. It would be refreshing for Bioware to be open and release the numbers they collect, at least the ones they don't feel are too sensitive. If done wrong though, this could lead to the sort of mechanical deconstruction that makes the game less fun, and created the cookie-cutter specs every serious raider had to run in WoW. They may prefer to keep the bonnet down on the game.

So...i will start with a link to the QA in question- http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/22564-jonathan-crow-answers-questions-regarding

 

 

In particular in want to highlight the following; "We pay very close attention to both engagement and balance in PvP. Some things we examine are player kill to death ratios and average rewards gained for every class to make sure that balance is maintained across the board.

 

And ; Balance-wise, kill/death ratios are well-balanced, with all Advanced Classes having kill/death ratios very close to each other.

 

I guess that means that dps sorc/sage and dps merc/trooper is perfectly fine? What about Shieldtech PTs? According to these metrics, "kill/death ratios are well-balanced" across all AC...

 

For real?! I simply cannot comprehend how this could possibly be true when you have some classes who clearly have great difficulties to perform on a adequate level. Hell, even i am getting interested in rolling something like a shadow these days...

 

You pretty much summed it up yourself in 8 words. Bioware would never release such statistics randomly w/o spending lots of time watching pvp and reassuring all of us that everything is 'working as intended'. Bioware is a company full of smart and capable sentinels and they obviously know what they are doing. Just look at commandos/mercs.....

Edited December 6, 2012 by OldRepublicRevan

Allison- Thank you for your response.

 

I Agree with several of my counterparts in this thread. When I first played my SORC in PVP I initially couldn't stand PVP for that reason. After several weeks of FACE rolls and getting the L2P out during my PVP education I found the following:

 

Bubble = Bad idea / Temp Fix to a lack of higher DPS for SORC/SAGE.

- DO NOT remove unless you plan on killing off SORC/SAGE's in all PVP or replace with serious DPS BUFF.

- While this does "Help" it's a bad solution long term (But the ONLY Utility a DPS SORC/SAGE Brings)

- Squishy class should be putting out the MOST if not EQUAL to our button smashing Warriors due to armor

Couple Classes lack TRUE DPS in PVP & PVE (You know SORC/SAGE is on the list)

- Seriously need to BUFF SORC's anyways (Same issue in PVE & PVP DPS Range)

- Can't speak to other classes, but I felt that having my face melted by a dual wielding button masher while stunned the whole time was not very fun to play.

- When in range I should be able to do just as much damage. (Then getting melted would seem okay since it got them off the CAP)

Overgeared "Pre-Made" groups slaughter PUG's = No FUN.

- EWH geared shouldn't be matched with anyone below 900 Expertise

- Live stream mentioned a solution in the works

You want to have FUN? Play a dual wielder or Stealth.

- Great advantages of both classes, but should have equal skills on all classes

- The FoTM just got a nerf, but rDPS classes should get a BUFF instead or NERF again.

 

My Thoughts (Basic / simple):

Healers = Very Squishy with high survival / heavy shield

mDPS = Spikey with good DPS

rDPS = Squishy with great DPS

Tank = Very Spikey with ok DPS

 

I now like to play PVP after learning the ropes and gear, but I'll take my Maurader instead due to the sheer difference in the BALANCE of the game and run within a PVP Pre-Made group. (Yes, I feel it's kinda silly that in order to have FUN I must use the same in-balance issues everyone has mentioned)

 

Healers = Very Squishy with high survival / heavy shield

mDPS = Spikey with good DPS

rDPS = Squishy with great DPS

Tank = Very Spikey with ok DPS

 

I lol'd at that one for real. If by great you mean below mediocre then I totally agree but if not then good sir I must say you are a retarded one indeed.

I've been subscribed since the launch of this game and every time we do get a message it's something along the lines of "we're looking at the metrics & will keep you informed'.

 

Then after that message, we hear nothing for at least a month, by then usually a patch goes life that either a class gets nerfed way too much (operatives/sorcs) or buffed when not necessary (smash spec). How about we try 1 change at a time instead of multiple nerfs/buffs on top of each other?

 

Also there is still a class that is not viable for high lvl competitive ranked pvp (mercenaries). Don't look at metrics for them, just look how easy they're shut down by any other class.

 

And on top of that, when pretty much the entire pvp community asked for less stuns, 'the team' changed the resolve system so that you don't even have to coordinate stuns anymore, effectively creating more CC oportunities.

 

I do understand that pvp balance is a lot tougher to do than pve balance, but making weird decisions like buffing an aoe spec that already did fine in pvp, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

 

To summarize: A lot of very weird decisions & lack of communication (saying you'll monitor something is NOT considered communication) made me lose faith in the alleged pvp department of this game.

I'll probably stay subbed anyway because I enjoy a challenge as combat sentinel, but I can see why people that love their mercernaries or sages, but don't want to play the hybrid spec, might leave this game.