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Rebalancing of Defensive CD's in the PT trees:

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Rebalancing of Defensive CD's in the PT trees:

Megatfx's Avatar


Megatfx
11.26.2013 , 02:17 PM | #1
The reason why AP tanks are viable is because as a DPS tree it has too many strong passive and reactive defensive CD's while having Taunt and Guard. You give Marauders Taunt and Guard and you'd see smash tanks in full DPS gear. The "damage" that AP's can do while in Ion Cell is not why they are strong, take a look at Vengeance Juggs, they can still put out strong burst while in Tank stance, but they are squishy regardless of the fact they are in Tank stance because they are a DPS tree.

The defensive CD imbalance began when AP was given energy rebounder, and then their AoE damage reduction skill was given 30% damage reduction while stunned on top of that while Pyrotechs were given "Degauss" which gives us a 25% chance to resist ANYTHING in the game for 6 seconds.

While Degauss is situationally incredible, it requires too much RNG for me to even consider it a fair trade for Energy Rebounder. Degauss feels more like a PT Tank skill vice a Pyrotech defensive CD. I've had situations where it's resisted 0 attacks while being tunneled by 2 dps and I've had situations where it's been godlike and resisted 80+% of all attacks during it's 6 second window. I've had it not resist a smash, but then resist a Battering Assault (Low damage rage builder for marauder), and vice versa.

It is not a real defensive ability, but more like a roll of the dice, for me to feel like Degauss is a true defensive CD it needs to have at least a 50% defense chance during it's 6 second window but tbh I want degauss scrapped.

What I'd like to see for talent changes is a few things and I know the die hard AP's are going to hate me for saying it, but AP is too strong defensive wise and Pyro is too weak.

Degauss - give it to Tanks, defense chance is a tank ability and is in more in line with Shield Techs abilities over Pyro.

Then do 1 of the next two things:
Replace Degauss with Energy Rebounder while separating the 30% AoE damage reduction talent with the 30% reduced damage while stunned talent in the AP tree so that way they still have to spend those two points for that defense.

Or:
Replace Degauss with 30% AoE damage reduction in the Pyro tree while leaving 30% damage reduction while stunned in the same spot on the AP tree and leaving Energy Rebounder in AP.


The only reason why AP tanks are so successful is that they have incredibly strong defensive CD's, have taunt, and guard. How many tanks would wear DPS gear if they had 30% aoe damage reduction, 30% damage reduction while stunned, and a talent that reduced the CD of Saber Ward every they get hit with an attack? Pretty sure EVERY tank in the game would.

Same thing with Marauders, they have really strong defensive's, you give them Taunt and Guard and you'd see Carnage or Rage Marauder tanks in arena. The reason why AP Tanks are so strong is not the damage, as Vengeance juggs in tank stance can put out equivalent damage as single target, it's that we are twice as strong as they are defensive CD wise.

If they spread the defensive CD's in the AP tree to Pyro more evenly as I've mentioned above then it would immediately destroy AP tanks in Arena as they'd not have enough passive damage reduction to main tank, but they'd still have enough defensive CD's to be a main DPS in Arena.

It would also open up Pyro as a more viable 4v4 spec in Arena and give us a CHOICE between "AP or Pyro" not which one is better, but which one works for your team or your playstyle.

CDWthoon's Avatar


CDWthoon
11.26.2013 , 06:14 PM | #2
I honestly do agree with you on the fact that the defensive capabilities need to be dispersed more wisely. From my experience in 4v4 ranked team scenarios, I do find that these AP tanks are priority #1 for single target focus, and in most cases they melt rapidly provided efficient CCs of the healer. However, I've been 37/7/2 practically since launch on my Vanguard/PT for PvE and PvP tanking purposes. What I'm finding is, regardless of the conventional mitigation chances in consideration of guard splash damage, the 16% defense, 35% shield, and 50% absorb I attain are essentially useless in scenarios in which the opposing group focuses the tank with armor penetration or DoTs. Sure, there's oil slick, yet melee can just relocate, and ranged don't even have to worry about it. Reactive Shield's 25% dmg reduction with a 13% up time is nice, when it's rarely available. The shoulder cannon heal I have is hardly noticeable in a situation where dpsers yielding 800-1300 dps are focusing, and Adrenaline Rush is on a three minute cooldown after possibly healing for at most 30% of my health. Is it truly logical, when adjacent tank classes have such a wide array of utility cool downs (50% defense chance cool downs, 50% damage reduction cool downs, immunity to tech and force for 4 seconds, complete reflection to tech and force for 3-5s, stealth, a 30ish meter escape teleport, 1/3 health increases for around 20 seconds), to merely give a legitimate tank spec 25% damage reduction and momentary, minor heals? Seeing dps have more defensive passives and cool downs in relation to the tank tree is a bit puzzling.

-Hochschirm, PoT5
-Caroth, JC

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
11.27.2013 , 08:48 AM | #3
I have to agree with the post. The 30% damage reduction while stunned should go
to the pyro tree somewhere (that or the AOE damage reduction). the two should be split because together they are a bit over the top.

What makes it over the top is the fact that it's passive. It doesn't take any skill or intelligence to get such a massive benefit. At least for undying rage, you have to click a button.

I would let AP keep rebounder, because that and kolto overload with automated defenses would be ridiculously overpowered.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
11.27.2013 , 10:29 AM | #4
Looking at AP from dps prescriptive (playing 8-36-2), not tank, are AP PTs OP? No. They are in a good spot in terms of damage output and survivability. The problem is the tank is leveraging on all DCDs and adding to them ion cylinder and 5% armor from trees, while maintaining 75-80% of the damage output.

Best way to resolve the AP hybrid tanks situation, is tie rebounder (both reduction to shield CD and the rebounder shield) to HEGC. And/or tie the 30% aoe reduction to HECG. This way, AP tanks loses a lot of mitigation.

Pyro needs a low CD DCD. Degauss does not fulfill this role. It is too RNG based on such a low chance.

There is no reason to do the same mistake BW made at 2.0, rob Jack to give John. Instead of trying to take from AP and give pyro, pyro needs to be provided its own DCDs. AP tank hybrid is not working as intended as there should be no such thing as dps spec being able to tank effectively in dps gear. A change need to occur to prevent AP from running in ion cylinder, that is not linking PFT to HECG, because that would kill the hybrid dps in PvE, which is the highest parsing and runs pyro/AP hybrid.

A buff to pyro is needed and I do not mind BW killing the AP hybrid tank. However, the changes should not come at AP dps expense. Again, AP as dps is defiantly strong, but not OP. There is no reason to nerf them.

Kooziejr's Avatar


Kooziejr
11.28.2013 , 09:40 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
I have to agree with the post. The 30% damage reduction while stunned should go
to the pyro tree somewhere (that or the AOE damage reduction). the two should be split because together they are a bit over the top.

What makes it over the top is the fact that it's passive. It doesn't take any skill or intelligence to get such a massive benefit. At least for undying rage, you have to click a button.

I would let AP keep rebounder, because that and kolto overload with automated defenses would be ridiculously overpowered.
Pyro needs no more love. The spec is easy mode offence and should get NO PASSIVE DEFENCE whatsoever. Pyro is an anti dot spec. AP is anti AOE spec. They are different and do not need changing. I feel equally well armoured and pull the same dps for both. However, the skill required for pyro is just next to none. 2 button noob rotation.
Koozie
/creampie

ScytheEleven's Avatar


ScytheEleven
11.28.2013 , 10:09 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kooziejr View Post
Pyro needs no more love. The spec is easy mode offence and should get NO PASSIVE DEFENCE whatsoever. Pyro is an anti dot spec. AP is anti AOE spec. They are different and do not need changing. I feel equally well armoured and pull the same dps for both. However, the skill required for pyro is just next to none. 2 button noob rotation.
This (to an extent). How many DoT classes do you see getting a 30% AoE reduction? Off the top of my head, I can't think of one. Lethality/DF gets a DoT damage reduction, same as Assault/Pyro. Typically, AoE heavy classes get some sort of AoE defense...just like DoT classes get some sort of DoT defense.

AP/Tactics is in a GREAT spot right now and is a blast to play in PVP. Don't go ruining it for those of us that love it. If you want to tie certain talents to HEGC to prevent Ion Cell AP users, doesn't bother me.
Kendiaro - Powertech
Dasmon - Gunslinger

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
11.28.2013 , 03:26 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kooziejr View Post
Pyro needs no more love. The spec is easy mode offence and should get NO PASSIVE DEFENCE whatsoever. Pyro is an anti dot spec. AP is anti AOE spec. They are different and do not need changing. I feel equally well armoured and pull the same dps for both. However, the skill required for pyro is just next to none. 2 button noob rotation.
Oh no, not another 'pyro is easy, AP is hard' thread. I used to think the same thing, until I really spent some quality loving time with pyro.

With AP, your defenses are all passive, all you have to do is run in, and hit your attacks in a certain sequence. Use flamethrower when the stacks are up. Sometimes, hit shield if someone attacks you. AOE is a joke to you, and stunning you is better than using shields.

With pyro, your attacks can be used out of sequence (all six or so that you need) but you REALLY need to be good on the stuns and defensive cooldowns to stay alive. That means using the right ones at the right time, and every tool at your disposal (shields, kolto, chaff, electro-dart, grenades, adrenals, carbonize, etc). Pyro is squishy if you just stand there.

So, I have respect for both.

Kooziejr's Avatar


Kooziejr
11.28.2013 , 07:10 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
Oh no, not another 'pyro is easy, AP is hard' thread. I used to think the same thing, until I really spent some quality loving time with pyro.

With AP, your defenses are all passive, all you have to do is run in, and hit your attacks in a certain sequence. Use flamethrower when the stacks are up. Sometimes, hit shield if someone attacks you. AOE is a joke to you, and stunning you is better than using shields.

With pyro, your attacks can be used out of sequence (all six or so that you need) but you REALLY need to be good on the stuns and defensive cooldowns to stay alive. That means using the right ones at the right time, and every tool at your disposal (shields, kolto, chaff, electro-dart, grenades, adrenals, carbonize, etc). Pyro is squishy if you just stand there.

So, I have respect for both.
For the most part it is flame burst rail shot. Neither are easy. But the offence is pyro is much easier than AP and the burst is significantly higher without using cooldowns. On the other hand, AP offence is much harder but use of defensive cooldowns is probably a fair bit easier because of the passive nature. Let's not try and make Pyro OP again because it will get nerfed into the ground...it is in a good place! Trust me I play pyro too and love it (will post a video later today to show I am not just a bad pyro having a QQ). Just don't think there needs to be any changes made to either of the DPS specs at the point in time as they are self sufficient. The tank hybrid Is a joke. The way to fix it is simple. Put ION gas stance 4th row up the tree. so you can't get AOE damage reduction - would suck at low levels (less than 25) but who cares about lowbies.

I agree that pyro is "squishier" in some senses. But you get the freedom of extra range with low cooldown on Railshot and 10m abilities. It should and will never get an AOE dmg reduction or stun reduction because it isn't an AOE/heavy melee class. Don't forget pyro does heal on AOE damage taken. with 30k health when you get smashed or take ANY AOE damage you heal for 800 or so. So you already have an AOE damage reduction as pyro. (granted other PT specs get this too but it already has passive AOE defence).

Let us not forget you get a perma 40% slow with a 10 metre ability (APs slow is a 4m ability hence it being a heavy melee class). If you get an AOE dmg reduction that ability by default would be removed from flame burst and put to rocket punch every 9 seconds or something stupid like that. Be careful what you wish for because it will come back and bite you in the arse.

Starting to see my point?
Koozie
/creampie

KainrycKarr's Avatar


KainrycKarr
11.29.2013 , 12:25 AM | #9
As someone who spent the first year and a half playing AP when it was terrible, can ya'll please leave my spec alone? AP is finally nice and viable and now ya'll wanna go messin' with it.

But seriously, just tie more things to HEGC. It keeps coming down to some variation of AP Hybrid being over the top. Granted, this variation isn't *that* over the top compared to previous hybrids and the original Pyro spec.

Just tie the flamethrower buff and energy rebounder or the 30% while stunned/AoE to HEGC. It's the simplest solution to the hybrid.

Remember, the more you try to balance around the hybrids, the more you hurt the guys like me who just wanna play the full spec.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
11.29.2013 , 07:51 AM | #10
Going back to Pyro easy argument, how easy/difficult a spec has absolutely no impact on its performance and should not. I don't play AP, because its easy, its not, I play it because it is effective. We all played pyro pre 2.0 because it was effective. TBH, how complicated is AP compared to pyro? it is just positioning of PFT. Spec easiness of play and effectiveness are not correlated, neither is player reference, so lets drop AP is "hard" and pyro is "easy" argument. It does not work.

For the damage output. While pyro has decent output, AP is way more effective. The aoe pressure from PFT and the damage SC offers are light years ahead of anything pyro offers. Add to that, pyro over reliance on RNG crossing your fingers for critics and RS proc, not to mention over reliance on dots that are easily removable, and will need 2-3 globals to be reapplied. You have aoe damage spec with strong off the aoe damage, and a spec that is a dot spec with RNG reliance for any burst.

Pyro needs either more damage or more DCDs to be comparable.