We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN. How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

Edited September 5, 2018 by mhobin

We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN. How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

 

No, not P2W. In fact, if there was something opposite of P2W, it would be making crafted gear BiS...

Edited September 5, 2018 by Joonbeams

The easiest way to make money to buy the new gear will be to buy a few rare items off the CM and then sell it. You can buy a character boost off the CM, then spend money on a few hyper crates,sell them, and have a top level toon. Spend an extra hundred bucks and you can have a BiS toon before running one heroic or doing a storyline quest.

It's not a direct P2W but it is a P2W nevertheless.It encourages players to buy cc in order to obtain the new gear from GTN and i would argue that this is what the studio aims for.

White knights will tell you that it's not though, as the second poster, ignoring the obvious encouraged customer behavior

Edited September 5, 2018 by giorgo

I'm going to be that one guy, but...

 

I detest complicated gearing systems. If I can in fact simply buy my way to the top, I will be satisfied.

 

Ideally, however, is to not have so many tiers so we can avoid all the mumbo jumbo in the first place.

 

It's just a cheap way to get people to play longer.

 

Normals, Heroics, Mythics...

Story, Hard, Master...

 

I much prefer just one difficulty with one set of gear. Very simple. Obviously some people do like difficulty tiers and gear tiers, and it is a way for the devs to add more content without too much work, but that ain't for me.

Edited September 5, 2018 by ForfiniteStories

I fail to see how this is P2W? It's P2SG (Pay to skip grind).

 

You can't buy the new gear directly from Bioware, no matter how much you give them, which is P2W imo...all you can do is buy it from other players who've earned it by doing the things necessary IN GAME to earn it...this isn't P2W at all...you're literally buying it from other players.

We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN. How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

 

I just got back to game a few months ago myself after a couple years break. I suggest working a tradeskill up, like synthweaving and then craft stuff for credits. Craft critical augs, the 236 rated sell well.

 

It doesn't take long to get a decent roll of credits coming in if you stay diligent and craft for profit not blowing creds on stuff you don't need.

 

That's what I have been doing, and I been able to get my toons geared with 236 augs as well as 240s on my main. I find crafting much more lucrative now than it has been in the past, because the items are always in need.

 

I see CM items dropping in price because they are so commonly bought now from CM, I don't think it's efficient turning CM items into credits honestly speaking, not anymore.

It's not a direct P2W but it is a P2W nevertheless.It encourages players to buy cc in order to obtain the new gear from GTN and i would argue that this is what the studio aims for.

White knights will tell you that it's not though, as the second poster, ignoring the obvious encouraged customer behavior

 

It's very easy to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being a white knight, but that doesn't make you any less wrong. That is what you are. Wrong. Incredibly, violently, wrong. If you think that there is any aspect of your post that is not wrong, then that simply indicates that you are either unaware of what the terms in question mean, or you're just too bitter to be objective.

 

Whether they do it well remains to be seen (and in fact, my one earlier post about this gear crafting has been a mildly negative one, and if you think I am a white knight, I will invite you to take a look at my posting history, and see that you'd be wrong again) but grind does not equal P2W. The moment that you spend real money to be able to afford an item ingame, that has already been crafted by someone else, is the moment that you spend real money to avoid doing something you could've been doing at the same time that the original crafter did it.

 

Think about it a little.

 

I think this new tier is a bad idea, to me it sounds like yet another way to keep people occupied with another pointless grind, presumably to mask the lack of new content, but that still doesn't make it pay to win. It will never be pay to win as long as the stats all originate from game mechanics. If people are unwilling to actually go through those mechanics, perhaps because BW hopes that it will somehow in more income for them, then it's STILL not pay to win.

It's not a direct P2W but it is a P2W nevertheless.It encourages players to buy cc in order to obtain the new gear from GTN and i would argue that this is what the studio aims for.

White knights will tell you that it's not though, as the second poster, ignoring the obvious encouraged customer behavior

 

I think there are many here who would take issue with you referring to me as a white knight:rolleyes:. But I'll take it as a compliment. In any event, I don't think you understand what P2W really is - term just gets tossed around willy nilly.

 

P2W == letting you: a)buy items that others cannot that and/or b) get items faster than others by buying them instead of getting them through gameplay, where those items give you an advantage in the game.

 

So, for example, if the Tier 5 gear was available in the CM, it would be P2W. If the schematics or the mats for them were sold on the CM, it would be P2W.

 

Now, we don't know exactly how this will work yet (new crafting tier, new mats, BoP, BoL, etc.). But assuming just normal market, there will be 3 ways to get this gear (assuming no BoP/BoL):

1. Farm the schematics and mats, and craft, all by yourself
   
2. Farm the schematics and/or mats, buy the other (mats/schematics) of GTN, craft all by yourself
   
3. Buy the fully crafted gear (again, assuming it's not BoP) off the GTN
   

 

Now, because option 1 is possible at all, the P2W argument is almost completely neutered by itself. You can literally get BiS gear without paying a dime of real money. But even if you look at options 2 and 3, those are P2W because you can earn all the credits to buy that stuff off GTN, without spending a dime of real cash (as a long time crafter who's made a boatload of money solely from crafting without selling a single CM item (until very recently), I know this to be true.

 

Now, there is a possibility that someone can use cash to buy CM items, sell those items, then use those credits to buy mats/schems and/or crafted gear off the GTN. But that doesn't equal P2W, because you can do every bit of that without buying a single CM item -- and in many instances, you can do it faster.

 

In other words -- and I speak confidently for most crafters here -- the absolute fastest way for me to get this BiS gear will be options 1 or 2, and prolly 2 (if the schematics and mats end up requiring end game content). I won't need to spend a dime on the CM. In fact, I will likely make a lot of in-game money selling/crafting during this period...

I think there are many here who would take issue with you referring to me as a white knight:rolleyes:. But I'll take it as a compliment. In any event, I don't think you understand what P2W really is - term just gets tossed around willy nilly.

 

P2W == letting you: a)buy items that others cannot that and/or b) get items faster than others by buying them instead of getting them through gameplay, where those items give you an advantage in the game.

 

So, for example, if the Tier 5 gear was available in the CM, it would be P2W. If the schematics or the mats for them were sold on the CM, it would be P2W.

 

Now, we don't know exactly how this will work yet (new crafting tier, new mats, BoP, BoL, etc.). But assuming just normal market, there will be 3 ways to get this gear (assuming no BoP/BoL):

1. Farm the schematics and mats, and craft, all by yourself
   
2. Farm the schematics and/or mats, buy the other (mats/schematics) of GTN, craft all by yourself
   
3. Buy the fully crafted gear (again, assuming it's not BoP) off the GTN
   

 

Now, because option 1 is possible at all, the P2W argument is almost completely neutered by itself. You can literally get BiS gear without paying a dime of real money. But even if you look at options 2 and 3, those are P2W because you can earn all the credits to buy that stuff off GTN, without spending a dime of real cash (as a long time crafter who's made a boatload of money solely from crafting without selling a single CM item (until very recently), I know this to be true.

 

Now, there is a possibility that someone can use cash to buy CM items, sell those items, then use those credits to buy mats/schems and/or crafted gear off the GTN. But that doesn't equal P2W, because you can do every bit of that without buying a single CM item -- and in many instances, you can do it faster.

 

In other words -- and I speak confidently for most crafters here -- the absolute fastest way for me to get this BiS gear will be options 1 or 2, and prolly 2 (if the schematics and mats end up requiring end game content). I won't need to spend a dime on the CM. In fact, I will likely make a lot of in-game money selling/crafting during this period...

 

In every P2W game you can grind out the items in game. But paying money gets you the items faster. For example: buy a character boost, buy 2 hypercrates, sell hypercrates, buy BiS gear. Look I just got a max level toon paying real money.

 

Call it P2W or pay to skip the grind it is all the same.

In every P2W game you can grind out the items in game. But paying money gets you the items faster. For example: buy a character boost, buy 2 hypercrates, sell hypercrates, buy BiS gear. Look I just got a max level toon paying real money.

 

Call it P2W or pay to skip the grind it is all the same.

 

Your are missing the fine point Joonbeams is making, and you really need to pay attention to that fine point.

 

Pay to win is not pay to win if you're using credits to buy from other players using the in-game auction house (GTN) for in-game produced (crafted) items.

 

It's pay to win if you're paying $ to the maker of the game for items not otherwise available in the game that are game-affecting.

 

Massive difference. Don't toss the phrase "P2W" around unless you mean definition #2.

 

You are not limited to how you raise the credits to pay those players on the auction house for the items crafted.

If you want to kill fleshraiders in the gnarls on Tython for the next 3 years to earn the credits off the corpse drops, go for it. Wear yourself out doing heroics. There's other ways to make credits. No one is twisting your arm behind your back forcing you to buy items off the cartel market to sell for credits on the GTN. It was merely one suggested way of earning credits. It is not the only way.

In every P2W game you can grind out the items in game. But paying money gets you the items faster. For example: buy a character boost, buy 2 hypercrates, sell hypercrates, buy BiS gear. Look I just got a max level toon paying real money.

 

Call it P2W or pay to skip the grind it is all the same.

 

But again, the fastest way for me to get this gear will be by keeping my IRL cash in my pocket and using in-game credits. If option in the game that allows you to purchase items with real money is a slower path to gear, is that still P2W?

 

I'm not saying I don't see the argument, I do. But it's pretty convoluted and/or hard to see how this new way of speeding up grind is different. Crafted gear has nearly always been just under BiS too, meaning you could get to grinding end game stuff faster by crafting all along. Or are you saying everything has been P2W: XP boosts, quick travel unlocks, companion gifts, etc.?

 

I think the general knock on P2W systems is when you can buy superior items with cash or buy BiS items with cash immediately that would otherwise require you to grind. Because no one will have to be "grinding" here for this gear other than simply collecting mats and schematics which anyone can do without doing playable content (presumably - we don't know yet how this works), I don't see how this fits in the P2W mold...

Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

 

...is one of the definitions so skip the 'i will educate you what P2W is".

What is interesting here though, which most people seem to completely ignore, is the reason the studio made this decision. They clearly have metrics showing an increase of cc purchases since the introduction of the new augments. What worked well for them with the augments, they hope it will work even better with the new gear.It's a cash grab.

We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN. How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

 

If this is your belief..... then you do not know what P2W actually means. It is generally accepted to mean ---> you have to pay real money to obtain an item and cannot obtain the item in game any other way. If something can be acquired in game from other players.. then it's not P2W.

 

Your actual complaint is that you fear the gear will be out of your credit price range. That is a different issue entirely and something that enterprising players have worked out long ago and do not suffer from lack of credits.

 

As for the actual gear.... I doubt it represents benefit in proportion to the costs. If so.. then simply ignore and move on. And.. just as the release of 246 crafted drove the prices of 230-240 crafted gear prices down notably in the player economy, I expect the new gear will push down prices of the 246 gear (which honestly in todays player economy was already pretty modestly priced).

 

Personally, I am surprised to see yet another gear tier released this late into 5.x... which to me indicates we are at least 6-8 months from 6.0. In other words.. it's something for players to grind for until 6.0... in other words.. a distraction.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Andryah

Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

 

...is one of the definitions so skip the 'i will educate you what P2W is"....

 

But no one will have to 'grind' weeks/months. You just need to buy/sell on the GTN and/or craft. You don't need to do any content (presumably since we don't really know yet how this works, e.g. things could be BoL, etc.).

 

It is true that someone would be able to start a brand new account, buy a master's datacron, buy some CM items, sell those items in GTN, then take those earnings and buy crafted gear. And yes, for that person, it would be faster than the other new player that didn't do that. But no new player would be (should be) able to gear faster than a veteran (and I mean relatively short-term vet) by this new system though, given the multiple ways to earn millions of credits solely in game, and given that no 'grind' is required other than buying/selling on GTN or crafting. So to ignore the fact that veteran players will be able to get the same BiS gear just as fast (actually faster) without having to spend a dime of real cash, and without having to grind beyond the GTN, is really just a convoluted attempt to retrofit a label onto this that doesn't really fit...

If this is your belief..... then you do not know what P2W actually means. It is generally accepted to mean ---> you have to pay real money to obtain an item and cannot obtain the item in game any other way. If something can be acquired in game from other players.. then it's not P2W.

 

Your actual complaint is that you fear the gear will be out of your credit price range. That is a different issue entirely and something that enterprising players have worked out long ago and do not suffer from lack of credits.

 

As for the actual gear.... I doubt it represents benefit in proportion to the costs. If so.. then simply ignore and move on. And.. just as the release of 246 crafted drove the prices of 230-240 crafted gear prices down notably in the player economy, I expect the new gear will push down prices of the 246 gear (which honestly in todays player economy was already pretty modestly priced).

 

Personally, I am surprised to see yet another gear tier released this late into 5.x... which to me indicates we are at least 6-8 months from 6.0. In other words.. it's something for players to grind for until 6.0... in other words.. a distraction.

P2W has many definitions and interpretations.Not to my surprise, you chosed the one that fits your narrative. Could it be that you are cherry picking .

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

But no one will have to 'grind' weeks/months. You just need to buy/sell on the GTN and/or craft. You don't need to do any content (presumably since we don't really know yet how this works, e.g. things could be BoL, etc.).

 

It is true that someone would be able to start a brand new account, buy a master's datacron, buy some CM items, sell those items in GTN, then take those earnings and buy crafted gear. And yes, for that person, it would be faster than the other new player that didn't do that. But no new player would be (should be) able to gear faster than a veteran (and I mean relatively short-term vet) by this new system though, given the multiple ways to earn millions of credits solely in game, and given that no 'grind' is required other than buying/selling on GTN or crafting. So to ignore the fact that veteran players will be able to get the same BiS gear just as fast (actually faster) without having to spend a dime of real cash, and without having to grind beyond the GTN, is really just a convoluted attempt to retrofit a label onto this that doesn't really fit...

I understand your argument but not everyone is into crafting (which by itself requires you to farm the mats or buy them) and certainly not everyone has a few hundreds of millions of credits to gear his alts.

If a new or returning player comes and asks what is the fastest way to get BiS gear, the honest answer is, buy a hypercrate, sell it on GTN and then buy the new gear.That is a very strong arguement for P2W.

 

EDIT : I am personally not into crafting btw, but after 7 years in this game i have more than 2 billion credits. That doesn't change my point of view about the malicious way of thinking the studio has in this case of the new tier of gear.

Edited September 5, 2018 by giorgo

I don’t think I can conclude anything from that livestream. For all we know, they could be static pieces (not orange custom) of gear with a set bonus, bound to legacy only, stacking with 248 set boni. That is, there will be no way to sell them on the GTN. Edited September 5, 2018 by phalczen

I understand your argument but not everyone is into crafting (which by itself requires you to farm the mats or buy them) and certainly not everyone has a few hundreds of credits to gear his alts.

If a new or returning player comes and asks what is the fastest way to get BiS gear, the honest answer is, buy a hypercrate, sell it on GTN and then buy the new gear.That is a very strong arguement for P2W.

 

Fair enough. Very fair. But the reason this is pretty trivial in the end (again, assuming it works as we're saying) is because there are multiple ways a player can, without spending any real cash, get what it takes to be BiS --AND-- do so without having to grind the hardest content, learn mechanics, etc. Just simply buy/sell/craft. In game players will benefit too, such as crafters (and in theory portions of the game where the mats drop will see spikes, which is beneficial too).

 

But yes, in the broadest of definitions it's P2W in theory (just like an XP boost or unlock is). But because the 'grind' being bypassed is literally just the 'grind' to get in-game credits that come from multiple sources anyway, and doesn't even require any content at all (e.g. you can get credits just from crafting), it has almost none of the 'ick factor' associated with blatant P2W schemes....

I just got back to game a few months ago myself after a couple years break. I suggest working a tradeskill up, like synthweaving and then craft stuff for credits. Craft critical augs, the 236 rated sell well.

 

It doesn't take long to get a decent roll of credits coming in if you stay diligent and craft for profit not blowing creds on stuff you don't need.

 

That's what I have been doing, and I been able to get my toons geared with 236 augs as well as 240s on my main. I find crafting much more lucrative now than it has been in the past, because the items are always in need.

 

I see CM items dropping in price because they are so commonly bought now from CM, I don't think it's efficient turning CM items into credits honestly speaking, not anymore.

 

I agree with you.

I was never good at turning CC bought hypercrates into in game credits in the first place, but now...

I bought one off the GTN last night for around 92 million and opened every pack.

Going on average prices on the GTN for some of the "rarer" items I could conceivably sell them for 56 million.

 

I'd have lots of other stuff left over, but not 36 million worth.

We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN. How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

 

Why are you posting this everywhere?

 

If you are just coming back to the game, you should ask around how to grind rare mats to craft 240 augs and 246 gear.

 

How about instead of spreading falsehoods, you learn the latest system?

Edited September 5, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

P2W has many definitions and interpretations.Not to my surprise, you chosed the one that fits your narrative. Could it be that you are cherry picking .

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

 

That is some hot irony you have cooking there. Not to mention.. if you actually read your linked definition... it proves my point, not yours.

 

Unlike you.... I stick with the generally accepted definition by MMO players who know the difference. You are cherry picking one that fits your particular narrative.

 

Now.. you can choose to make this game P2C (pay to compete) by admitting you are bad at building in game wealth when you play an MMO.. and instead must tap the cash shop.. spend real money, and then sell the items for in game currency to get the credits you need. But that is by your choice.. it is in no way forced upon you by the game. There are many players of SWTOR who have everything they dream of having.. and have never spent real money or CCs to do so.

 

This game is not hard to be completely self-sufficient in.. and I encourage you to actually try, rather then throw corner case use of terms and definitions to complain.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Andryah

We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN. How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

 

It really depends on your definition of Pay to Win.

 

Mine has always been "Buy highest level gear directly from (insert game company) using real world cash."

 

This isn't that.

 

There's a middleman in there, the player who crafts the items and decides what the price to list on the GTN is going to be.

 

Since it isn't direct, it isn't P2W.

It's not a direct P2W but it is a P2W nevertheless.It encourages players to buy cc in order to obtain the new gear from GTN and i would argue that this is what the studio aims for.

White knights will tell you that it's not though, as the second poster, ignoring the obvious encouraged customer behavior

 

You sound like a whale if you think buying CC is the way to get rare mats for crafting. L2P and stop calling everyone a white knight for disagreeing with your noobery.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

How is it pay to win - when mats have to be gatherd,

the item has to be crafted,

and has to be sold

 

- with all things obtained ingame.

 

 

besides the fact we don't even know the stats for said item, or what you'll need to make them.

they might be +2 stat increase from 248 (like the 240 augments).....

 

If you decide you can't play the game and get the mats/scematics yourself, doesn't make it play to win, YOU decide you want to buy it off the GTN, and you decide to spend real money to get credits to buy it off the gtn