My fellow ShadowSins,

 

This class has gone from utility godhood to useless, to kinda good, to useless, to bad, to getting there and now good again. Homogenization has spread across the board, so a lot of the original finesse our Shadows and Assassins use to spew out is seemingly gone. Do not think that is a bad thing. Sometimes complexity needs to be reduced. For example, think on technology. We're not trying to complicate things as we evolve, we try to simplify it too and make it more convenient etc.

 

Now, let's get to the juicy bits.

 

 

DARKNESS / KINETIC COMBAT

Ah my Darkness, my how you've grown. You were the original spec that MADE Sins into the utility monsters that they were and then much of your special talents were removed, taken or even given to other classes. We've seen some dark ages with Darkness devolving to by far, the worst tank in both PvE and PvP. So where is Darkness now?

 

Darkness is in a very strong spot.

 

Let's line up the goodies of it, shall we? Darkness does good damage, has respectable tanking output and the best part? It's a counter to inquisitors / consulars! Especially those pesky Hatred / Serenity builds. This gives Darkness an almost guaranteed spot in group ranked and of course the warzones alike. Naturally its defensives are on point too, making it a tanky fighter actually capable of withstanding damage!

 

Onto the best part. The utility. My goodness, the utility. The utility on Darkness is unreal. As if pull, shroud, guard, taunt, spike, electrocute, reduce accuracy, aoe-slow, aoe-damage debuff, wasn't enough - Darkness now features a healing debuff that can be used as a single target attack or an AoE (Thrash / DS or Lacerate)

 

Darkness is in a great spot and it's very fun in its current incarnation.

Useful, gets the job done and an awesome team player.

 

 

HATRED / SERENITY

Little disorientated with the name change. Particularly, the name 'Hatred' sounds quite childish. Serenity on the other hand, ain't too bad. So I'm going to start with the obvious of this spec. This spec is Tier 1 at the moment. It's not because of its damage perse. It's because of it's cleave ability. Now before we get into the hate on this spec (no pun intended), let's talk about what this spec used to be.

 

In one word: Useless.

 

. The cleanse mechanic, the way it used to be, disabled this spec from ever showing its face. Not to mention, this spec was never good. For years we're talking here. Madness / Balance Assassins / Shadows did fluff damage at best for nearly 4 years! According to BW's philosophy on the previously asked questions, this spec is actually doing what it's supposed to - YEARS after release.

 

This spec does not need a nerf on damage. Heck, even before the grand buffs, one could spec Madness, go into a warzone and top damage by far. Of course that'd be assuming the healers weren't cleansing or DPS / Tanks weren't shutting him down and yeah, a lot of it was fluff damage. Anyway, that being said, a revert to the cleanse mechanic will revert this spec into total uselessness so beware. A cap on the amount of targets in PvP for DF concerning DoT spread will be a more effective nerf.

 

However, none of those nerfs should see the light of day if PTs and Sorcs don't get slapped either, because they too are absolutely stupid at the moment.

 

Enjoy Hatred / Serenity. It's actually doing its role for once.

 

 

DECEPTION / INFILTRATION

My how you have fallen into a total shame. This spec is not fine. This spec is not fine at all and stop comparing it to Hatred because it has nothing to do with that. This spec is pathetic on its own. I look directly at PTs when I think about this spec. They have higher burst, more survivability, more ranged attacks AND immunity to being kited? And, what does this spec have?

 

A bloody cool end-game animation, no doubt! Probably the coolest in game!

 

And that's about it. This spec is now completely useless. The increased damage on Spike / Spinning Kick was unwanted, unneeded and a useless change. The increased damage on LS as well, serves no purpose because hey - Infiltration totally does great damage in PvE, huh?

 

There were many methods to increase sustained output without increasing the burst. These forums had many good suggestions that I need not repeat if one does the research to find it.

 

Maul's damage is unbelievably low. For such a tedious ability (getting behind people and its 'only-use-on-proc mechanics), it's disheartening to see its payoff so unworthy. Maul's damage MUST be increased once more. Reduce Spike, reduce LS damage and return duplicity to what it was. This simply isn't acceptable for a LIGHT-ARMORED-CLASS with LESS BURST AND DAMAGE than a HEAVY-ARMORED CLASS.

 

It's illogical and cringe-worthy.

 

Here's where it gets better. This spec is SO kiteable! On top of its low-armored state, people can kite around this spec as if it's nothing. Do you not see a disturbing issue there BW? That makes no sense whatsoever. It also has no self healing, making it a pain for healers to carry (yes, I said carry) and why should they? Other specs can take care of themselves better but this one needs to be strapped to the backpack of others?

 

I haven't seen this spec this bad in years.

Two steps forward, one step back I suppose.

 

Anyway,

. Enjoy.

 

Please leave your own opinions and reports on our class as well.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Xinika

I must admit I have been away for a little while but as I got acquainted with my shadow I definitely noticed the problems you refer to.

 

My opinions:

 

Darkness:

It currently does too much damage in pvp. If nothing else, the harnessed darkness damage buff should only boost damage against non-player characters.

 

Hatred:

The big issue with this spec that I see is that it has too much self healing. It is too easy to spread the DoTs and leeching strike heals for too much. DoT spreading imo was a dumb idea to begin with, but I doubt BW will remove it, so at the very least the imbibe ability should be redone. Raising the self healing for leeching strike and death field (an AoE attack) by 100% is too much.

 

Deception:

It is definitely not as bad as you say, but it is severely lacking. The burst has not only not been adjusted to the hp, it has actually been nerfed. Our force management was made more difficult, for some stupid reason we need to waste a utility in order to have more DR than a f*cking sorc, our whirlwind cast was moved back to 2 seconds-most people don't notice this, but this was one of our best weapons against being kited.

 

Even after all that, the spec is still not THAT horrible, but severely lacking.

 

I think it seems horrible because it has lost its place in the current meta game. There is no place this spec belongs now. Before you could use it in ranked for the hard switch comp, now ... meh. In regs it was never that great, it was either good for node guarding, stealing a node, or finishing off enemies that were already weakened. Now that it's burst has been weakened, any ranged attack it could've had has been taken away, TTK has gone up, other classes have been buffed, WW cast time went up to 2 and ranged classes getting more mobility; I wouldn't put this spec as the best at any of these. Maybe node guarding, but the lack of a range attack limits how far away from the node you can hide (we miss you death field), I would still think a scrapper or op healer would be better.

 

Even the marauder-currently the worst class in the game-has a place in the meta if he can find a pocket healer. This spec, well I would recommend healers don't waste time trying to heal it.

 

EDIT-I posted this in another topic, but I will just post a wishlist I made for this spec (#7 was a whine more than an actual wish):

 

1. make lift/WW a 1 second cast again, reverting this to 2 seconds made absolutely 0 sense (see what I did there?).

2. bring back imposed weakness on LS.

3. increase our DR; unless I choose the utility, my sorc has more DR than my assassin, I just think that makes no sense. The +30% should be default as we are a melee spec, we shouldn't have to waste a utility on it.

4. raise the crit bonus from 5% to 9% again, we are a burst spec after all.

5. as xinika said, move the damage from LS and spike back to discharge.

6. make all the lacerate utilities default, having an AoE attack that is actually semi usable should not be something we should sacrifice utilities for (although I am glad they finally lowered the cost).

7. If they're not nerfing the PT, bring our damage up to their levels and make the duplicity proc every 6 seconds, have force speed last for 5 seconds and make discharge off GCD (too much? PTs have that and more).

8. Dark stability should only protect us against roots and snares, protecting from us from anything else is a bit much.

9. force lightning should be 30m by default. It really sucks being the only class/spec that is not able to do anything when someone is +10m away from you. If you can slow him down until your force speed comes back, stop a cap or even do a bit of damage from a distance, it would be lovely. Maybe make this a utility? Or maybe allow force slow to be used via utility?

10. If they are not putting the imposed weakness back on low slash, have it auto crit.

 

But if all that is too much, at the very least just increase our burst and bring back the WW cast time to 1 second.

Edited January 13, 2015 by sithBracer

I'm not really seeing all the hate towards Deception. We still have THREE abilities that hit between 10k-13k, with guaranteed crits. So burst...check.

 

Parses on dummies don't mean anything, in real raids no Hatred spec is out parsing my deception spec except on trash and who cares? Marauders are and some ranged depending on the fight. Too many mechanics are screwing melee all together.

 

Power management? We have two abilities to boost regen in combat. It's never a problem unless you screw up your rotation, which is pretty hard to do these days.

 

For PvP, bleh, it's ridiculous in this game anyway. Trying to balance that hot mess pointless.

I'm not really seeing all the hate towards Deception. We still have THREE abilities that hit between 10k-13k, with guaranteed crits. So burst...check.

 

Parses on dummies don't mean anything, in real raids no Hatred spec is out parsing my deception spec except on trash and who cares? Marauders are and some ranged depending on the fight. Too many mechanics are screwing melee all together.

 

Power management? We have two abilities to boost regen in combat. It's never a problem unless you screw up your rotation, which is pretty hard to do these days.

 

For PvP, bleh, it's ridiculous in this game anyway. Trying to balance that hot mess pointless.

 

You're really funny if you think Hatred isn't out-damaging Deception in real raids. On every single boss fight, my Hatred performance is better than my Deception. I just play Deception to play something different every once in a while.

They usually stay just above me on the parse, about 200 higher, until the execute phase when I pass them and end up about 200 higher.

 

I trust the numbers guys, the theory crafters and the guide writers but in practice, in actual combat, the difference is so minimal it's a ridiculous thing to debate.

Xin,

 

This is Nos the sorc from release.. Good to see you back and also playing with Nob. He is a good sin, please tell him Doc said hello. I think you hit the nail on the head better then you have before TBH. This class was a utility beast and has lost some of that, but then again it is our own fault. I play on the same server as you (My Shadow is Doc) and I can tell you that I have never been lifted, or knocked back by any Sin/Shadow while in ranked. It is rather sad that DPS has taken a front seat to utility, peeling and winning. Really enjoyed the video and looking forward to killing you again

 

Also I have Nos still on this server and in the same gear we battled in at 50 lol!

 

Also have you done much testing with Accuracy/Alacrity/etc...

 

Doc

No need for her to tell me, I've been reading this thread. Hi Doc :].

 

As per my thoughts, they are mostly aligned with the OP here.

 

Hatred

 

I believe in order for Hatred to be "fixed" there has to be either a nerf to our utilities in hatred, which would affect sins in every spec the way things are now, or they have to nerf the way that DoTs are spread via death field. Perhaps putting a cap limit to how many targets death field can hit, or giving a lesser version of the DoTs to the targets that it spreads to, or making them spread via lacerate instead of death field.

 

Deception

 

Why was duplicity on low slash taken away? I really don't understand. I've played deception like once or twice for lulz since the patch, it's not really good for much else. Though the one thing I will say a comp of 2-3 coordinated deception sins in an arena game could utterly annihilate an opponent with coordinated burst. But hell, AP PTs or Lightning Sorcs could do that even better. The one advantage they get on their burst is the surprise attack from stealth, meaning they could reach people hanging back in arenas and burst them down. Still, this spec is lacking compared to some other burst specs, fix it please.

 

Darkness

 

Lol Darkness, there are sooooo many things to do as a Darkness sin with DPS gear in ranked arenas right now.

 

Ideally, a darkness sin has to:

 

-Keep their 20% mortal strike effect on the enemy, yet it lasts only 6 seconds long. Spread via lacerate, or thrash if they are not clumped together.

-Keep their eye on the ops frame to swap for guards.

-Use your taunts on cooldown. Likely you'll have to focus target their highest dps to single target taunt fast enough without losing performance elsewhere.

-Use Wither/Slow Time every time it is up.

-Have their Discharge effect on physical damage type enemies for the reduced accuracy it inflicts upon them.

-Know when to knockback root.

-Pull in stray targets when the time is right.

-Spike/Electrocute an enemy when the time is right.

-Keep an eye for Energize procs, possibly Frontal Maul procs if you have time.

-Keep an eye on your health to use defensives at the proper time, if you are guard swapping effectively, you'll always be losing HP, sometimes rapidly if PTs are bursting.

-Use D. Volts at the proper time, preferably with Recklessness up, though Recklessness also gives 30% shield absorption while it is up.

 

Darkness sin is in a very strong spot right now, seeing as the other best classes/specs are all mainly force/tech users. Our Shroud blocks Shoulder Cannon, and purges Hatred DoTs, not to mention blocking the burst of lightning sorcs. With Disjunction and Shroud of Madness we can get 9 seconds of shroud! This makes us very survivable against the current meta right now, and we can do potentially 1500-2000 dps on top of that!

 

Summary

 

My only complaint about Darkness is a core complaint I've always had with how it operates. I think giving us an ability we have to channel is stupid. Considering the fact that sometimes we have to rapidly guard swap depending on the situation, or taunt, which would break that channel. But damn, D. Volts hits like a truck! I've done up to 25k damage over the duration with it and killed targets in ranked!

 

Hatred does massive pressure damage and has enough survivability/utility by itself. It's at the top of the pyramid right now as far as DPS go.

 

Deception is not worth taking, especially compared to the other 2 specs we have right now. I cannot speak for PvE, but for the current meta, Darkness is quite powerful as a tank, while Hatred is undeniably strong, even borderline OP, as a DPS.

 

 

Overall, I would say... Assassins, this is OUR time right now(unless you choose to play deception.)

Edited January 13, 2015 by NamikazeNaruto

I feel the same way you do pretty much. Infiltration feels so much weaker now than Serenity in both damage output (sustained AND burst) and survivability. I feel that the only way to get good burst from Infiltration is to just roll massive crit rating and pray you get the crits you need on key abilities (ie Force Breach, Shadow Strike, Spinning Strike) for you to have any killing power in that spec because there is nothing worse than seeing Shadow Strike hits for only 3-4k w/ proc. I can't really comment on PvE between Infiltration and Serenity (mainly because I tank on my shadow for PvE) but I will say there isn't a single fight I have seen so far where I feel I would do better in Infiltration than Serenity.

They usually stay just above me on the parse, about 200 higher, until the execute phase when I pass them and end up about 200 higher.

 

I trust the numbers guys, the theory crafters and the guide writers but in practice, in actual combat, the difference is so minimal it's a ridiculous thing to debate.

 

Then those that you play with aren't terribly good. I pass my own Deception numbers in Hatred by 400 to 600 (and up to 2k on Malaphar). The Hatred execute phase is almost as good as Deception's, just harder to do correctly.

 

And if you really think that the people who write the guides and do the theorycrafting then you're either not paying attention or deluding yourself. If you look at Dulfy's guides, almost all of them that are relevant for 3.0 are written by some of the best players of each class in the game.

always sayd it, since 3.0 lol of revan was realeased, BRING BACK THE OLD deception, with a non bugged animation, and with current force regen or Surgin charge, bring bacl double duplicity, decreased ls damage, and increase maul damage to 30 % on duplicity, prioblem solved, delete dark strability and fadeout from sins

I wanted to post a little more than just "I agree" but the fact is that I've been busy untill now.

 

I'll take a bit more time later.. but very quickly summarizing:

 

Infiltration/Deception is crap. Not because it isn't any threat, but we're having nearly equal burst to what we had before 3.0 the only difference is that healthpools shot up by 25% and healing by about the same.

 

 

Darkness/Combat is amazing. Most don't realize it, but it's véry capable right now.

To the point where you could just troll the hell out of people with 3 of them in a single team.

 

 

And Hatred/Serenity.. oh that spec.. It is so beyond anything and everything else in this game i sometimes get bored of how easy it is to completely annihilate people with it.

I wanted to post a little more than just "I agree" but the fact is that I've been busy untill now.

 

I'll take a bit more time later.. but very quickly summarizing:

 

Infiltration/Deception is crap. Not because it isn't any threat, but we're having nearly equal burst to what we had before 3.0 the only difference is that healthpools shot up by 25% and healing by about the same.

 

 

Darkness/Combat is amazing. Most don't realize it, but it's véry capable right now.

To the point where you could just troll the hell out of people with 3 of them in a single team.

 

 

And Hatred/Serenity.. oh that spec.. It is so beyond anything and everything else in this game i sometimes get bored of how easy it is to completely annihilate people with it.

 

good to hear about the tanking spec.. started leveling a shadow just to throw some rocks around was going to try out combat with it

Thank you Xinika for Mad day! Madnes/Hatred (nice name) best spec ever. Edited January 13, 2015 by DrthTorkwemada

They usually stay just above me on the parse, about 200 higher, until the execute phase when I pass them and end up about 200 higher.

 

I trust the numbers guys, the theory crafters and the guide writers but in practice, in actual combat, the difference is so minimal it's a ridiculous thing to debate.

 

tell them to watch some guides. LoL.

 

HAtred burst phase is not so easy to handle, and easy draining force if u are not care enough.

 

I play deception when I have many swap targets if I'm lazy to do it..

Xin,

 

This is Nos the sorc from release.. Good to see you back and also playing with Nob. He is a good sin, please tell him Doc said hello. I think you hit the nail on the head better then you have before TBH. This class was a utility beast and has lost some of that, but then again it is our own fault. I play on the same server as you (My Shadow is Doc) and I can tell you that I have never been lifted, or knocked back by any Sin/Shadow while in ranked. It is rather sad that DPS has taken a front seat to utility, peeling and winning. Really enjoyed the video and looking forward to killing you again

 

Also I have Nos still on this server and in the same gear we battled in at 50 lol!

 

Also have you done much testing with Accuracy/Alacrity/etc...

 

Doc

Nos, you are like an ancient relic to my eyes. Can still remember the time I had just hit 50 and saw you destroying everything on your sorc. Good to see you. Now, as far as the Acc / Alac etc - I have come to a realization. Hatred needs a mix of stats.

 

- AT LEAST 94% Accuracy / 95% Accuracy Preferred.

- 22 - 24% Crit

- 68 - 71% Surge

- 2 - 3% Alacrity

- Rest Power

- All WP Augments

 

I'll have better follow up responses tomorrow on some of the views on this thread. It's late, sleep, etc.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Xinika

- AT LEAST 94% Accuracy / 95% Accuracy Preferred.

 

Currently with no accuracy augments I'm sitting at ~94.50% accuracy (don't remember the exact number) - with BiS enhancements. It would be a waste to add another enhancement right? Or maybe add 1 accuracy augment?

My stats as Serenity are as follows:

 

Accuracy: 94,43%

Crit: 24,53%

Surge: 68,60%

Alacrity: 3,30%

 

I've been testing this setup for a few days and it definitely feels better than giving up the Accuracy altogether. But I wonder what stats do you recommend for tank with DPS gear, Xinika? I like the idea and may eventually give it a try.

If you're going for accuracy.. at least cap it in a way that most won't be dodging you anymore (Aka get 95% or forget it completely) imo

 

And crit is bad.. like really.. for PvP, skip it. At MAX 23% @ melee.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Evolixe

When discussing these stats i.e 25% crit does this include self buffs or is that without buffs?

 

Thanks

Deception - easy to be kited in grp, cause lack of range attacks. No matter buff u maul dmg or not - they will be dead for grp. Was viable only for hardswitches, cause incredible burst. Not sure that they can retrieve dat burst. There is a lot of other spec that can derp much better. Edited January 14, 2015 by helpmewin

When discussing these stats i.e 25% crit does this include self buffs or is that without buffs?

 

Thanks

 

All-in. Stims, Buffs.. everything.

Thank you!

This spec does not need a nerf on damage. Heck, even before the grand buffs, one could spec Madness, go into a warzone and top damage by far. Of course that'd be assuming the healers weren't cleansing or DPS / Tanks weren't shutting him down and yeah, a lot of it was fluff damage. Anyway, that being said, a revert to the cleanse mechanic will revert this spec into total uselessness so beware. A cap on the amount of targets in PvP for DF concerning DoT spread will be a more effective nerf.

 

However, none of those nerfs should see the light of day if PTs and Sorcs don't get slapped either, because they too are absolutely stupid at the moment.

 

Enjoy Hatred / Serenity. It's actually doing its role for once.

 

Doing what it's supposed to doesn't mean it's fine, because it's doing it too well. Like a healer is supposed to heal, but doesn't make it balanced if it could crit for 20k and pull 6k HPS without a sweat.

Obvious hyperbole aside Hatred is in the same boat and deserves a nerf.

a) Weren't you the one that suggested cleanse as the primary solution? Change of heart? Is this another long thought and measured decision or will you change again after a week? Anything not to nerf your class.

 

b) Have you ever played 2.10 madness sins?

a) Weren't you the one that suggested cleanse as the primary solution? Change of heart? Is this another long thought and measured decision or will you change again after a week? Anything not to nerf your class.

 

b) Have you ever played 2.10 madness sins?

 

Are you really this thick or just acting like it?