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[Topic] Which of the OG Companions should/could viably be same/sex romanceable?


SithtobeJedi

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I've seen the topic covered when the new patches come out, and it's always a discussion when returning companions should be given the option to be same sexed romanced. What I hear as a counter argument to this usually comes in one of three forms.

 

1) Their characters are already established so 'turning' them bi-sexual would be against their character and make no sense.

2) Not every OG companion should have a same sex option as that's not how it works in the real world.(Often citing Mass Effect and Dragon Age as examples as they have a dose of both)

3) Indifference

 

My response to this however is that the argument that all of the OG Companions were "all established as not being bi-sexual/lesbian" is leaving out one important detail. The truth of the matter is, they were all written during a time when the people creating TOR had no intentions of even having same sex romances as options in the game, so when you have that mentality from the get go, that is the nature of how the characters were created. They weren't created with that option in mind, and to me, that is a very big point that people have left out of that side of the argument.

 

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They weren't created with the same mentality that went into Mass Effect of even Dragon Age where BIOWARE had a plan and went "These characters will be bi-sexual/gay/lesbian and these characters will be straight, and then wrote the rest accordingly.

 

They were created with the mentality that there wasn't going to be any Same-Sex stuff period in the game, so it never even entered into the equation of implementing or not implementing it into the character personalities in terms of romance. It was straightforward. Pun intended.

 

Because even back then, we remember when at the time Community Manager Sean Dahlberg was going around closing threads, and verbally saying both out loud, and within anything LGBT related

 

"These are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.

 

Thread closed."

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What this means to me was that the game was not initially approached with anything LGBT related or in mind at all. Unlike Mass Effect and Dragon Age, it never entered into the equations whether or not the OG Companions would/could be bi-sexual/gay as it related to romance of the main character because even if they were it was never considered as an option. So because it was considered that it would never be an option during development, it never came into the equation whether or not they could viably be romanced by the same sex, as the game was not created from the standpoint of even having this in mind.

 

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However times changed, the community rebelled, and Bioware had to apologize. But it cannot be denied, that in the original game's design at some point in TOR's original development it was decided that same-sex romances wasn't in line with the universe, because the 'terms' didn't exist. So it never entered the equation as far as if any companion was, or was not, in terms of romantic options. This is a big point.

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So bearing that in mind let's fast forward to now. The reason I bring up that little fact is because those that say "The OG Companions were already written as straight with no compromise." to me, has more to do with how they entered into their early development of the game that same sex was a no, for the overall scheme of the game so it never came up as a character romance option, and the most they intended it would appear would be as a throwaway trait(the situation with Kaliyo for example).

 

Because of this, I don't believe that the OG Companions ever got a chance when it came to character development, for it to be decided whether or not it was viable storywise that they could be romanced by the same gender. They never got the chance to be written with that as an option in mind where a developer could go "Yes that fits his/her character/personality" and "No, that doesn't fit his/her character/personality."

 

The more recent creations were written with that in mind, which is why we got the companions we have now with that in mind. However I think that it would be very viable to go back and look at the OG Companions we had upon launch and ask ourselves or at least analyze/give our opinions on which of them, if the option for same sex had been available back then, would have been, and/or should be in the future, capable of being same/sex romanced.

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Therefore, I'd like to open up a discussion on the OG Companion characters. Which do you all feel could be written as bi-sexual or gay viably, and which do you think should be romanceable options for same sex? And why?

 

Obviously it can't be all of them, but you only have to comment on the characters you're familiar with, but I think it's good to get this kind of discussion going in a structured way. Instead of only putting it out there that we'd like the OG Companions to be same sex romanceable. Instead, actually start giving out names of some specifically, and give the reasons why.

 

So let's get down to it!!! :) I'll mark both the Romanceable and Non-Romanceable companions for the sake of keeping things neat, but for the sake of discussion of the topic at hand, they'll all be 'Romanceable'. Don't forget, they can be pan/bi-sexual as well(such as in Vector's case where I'd personally figure gender wouldn't matter) I'll also keep track here of those whom are mentioned. I'll put numbers next to the ones that get more than one mention.

============================

Kaliyo: █ █ █

Mako: █ █

DS Jaesa: █ █

Vector: █

Akaavi Spar: █ █

Risha: █

Doc: █

Quinn: █ █

Pierce: █

Broonmark: █

============================

OG COMPANIONS:

 

EMPIRE:

  • Sith Warrior:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Vette

  • Malavai Quinn

  • Jaesa Willsaam

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • Lieutenant Pierce

  • Broonmark

 

  • Sith Inquisitor:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Khem Val

  • Andronikos Revel

  • Ashara Zavros

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • Talos Drellik

  • Xalek

 

  • Imperial Agent:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Kaliyo Djannis

  • Vector Hyllus

  • Raina Temple

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • Dr. Eckard Lokin

  • SCORPIO

  • Bounty Hunter:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Mako

  • Torian Cadera

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • Blizz

  • Gault Rennow

  • Skadge

 

 

REPUBLIC:

  • Jedi Knight:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Kira Carsen

  • Doc

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • T7-O1

  • Sgt. Fideltin Rusk

  • Lord Scourge

 

  • Jedi Consular:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Nadia Grell

  • Lt. Felix Iresso

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • Qyzen Fess

  • Tharan Cedrax

  • Zenith

 

  • Smuggler:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Corso Riggs

  • Risha

  • Akaavi Spar

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • Bowdaar

  • Languss Tuno

 

  • Trooper:
  • ROMANCEABLE
    • Aric Jorgan

  • Elara Dorne

  • NON-ROMANCEABLE
    • M1-4X

  • Tanno Vik

  • Sgt. Yuun

 

 

Have fun! And as always please try to keep the discussion productive ^_^

 

:ph_thank_you:

Edited by SithtobeJedi
Needed to get the Smuggler/Trooper Companions correct.
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Gualt already has a significant other, Hylo Visz, so shouldn't be on any romancable lists at all.. it's like half his entire history and future, and she's too important to him as a character. Edited by Asmodesu
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Would like to point out that you mixed up Risha, Elara, Tanno, Bowdaar, Languss Tuno and Forex. Elara, Forex, and Tanno are Trooper. Risha, Languss Tuno and Bowdaar is Smuggler.

 

DS Jaesa never seemed to care who she "did it" with. So I'd say she's defs Bi. But at the time of making her romance they were still under Lucas and he didn't want same sex romances. Had he not been in control I am pretty sure we'd have seen a f/f romance with her.

Edited by iFenris
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One of the original companions is bi-sexual : Akaavi Spar. If you romance her and talk about the Mandalorian concept of "love" she will tell you that phrase in Mando'a, the one meaning " I will know you forever". If you tell her that phrase, she will say something like " no man or woman have ever told me that" . Sure, by "woman" you could understand mother,sister, clan sister, but here she is definitely talking about "woman" as in "lover", not as in "family/clan member".
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Based on an assumption that they will not rewrite the dialogue *words* (including the post-marriage letters) and they will not re-record those dialogues in any way(1):

 

Aric Jorgan is straight. In the flirt conversations, he talks about the Trooper as being a woman, using that word.

 

Doc's final romance-series conversations with a female non-human Knight don't make sense if the knight is male. (He talks about their need to adopt if they want children being driven by questions of (potential) genetic incompatibility.)

 

Quinn's post-marriage letters to the Warrior include references to the effect that pregnancy will have on her ability to fight. That's obviously not relevant to a male/male relationship.

 

For Corso, a male/male relationship seems (to me) to be inconsistent with his general attitude towards women, but I may be reading too much into that.

 

I think there are similar things that you can find in most of the other romances.

 

DS Jaesa is NOT a pure lesbian - when she mentions her drunken exploits with an Imperial soldier early in the romance ("It's fuzzy"), she uses the word "him". But it's long enough since I did that that I don't remember whether she refers to the Warrior as a man rather than a sex-independent term. I have a niggling feeling that she does.

 

Caveat lector: I've done most of them once only. Ashara and Raina Temple, not at all, and I'm just starting Smuggler/Akaavi (just beginning Hoth) for the first time.

 

Fussy point: I've seen other posts lying around that suggested that the drive to be straight-only when the game released didn't come, as such, from Bioware, but from George himself. (Certainly it seems incosisten with the way they wrote their other games.)

 

My gut feel is that it's impractical, at this point, to change it just for the few whose writing is ambiguous, given that there are several "important" ones who are definitely NOT ambiguous in their writing, for one reason or another. (Aric uses the word "woman", Quinn talks about pregnancy in the letter, Corso's sexuality seems tied to his gentlemanly attitude to women, etc.).

 

Yes, all those things *could* be fixed, but at a cost of developer, writer, tester, and so on time that could be, I think, better used elsewhere. It's a shame, in a way, because I would have liked for my first Commando to be able to romance Elara, but she couldn't.

 

So,to recap:

* They *could* do this, given a freedom to rewrite romance arcs and other story elements and (re)record romance dialogues.

* Doing so would be take a measure of time away from building *new* content.

* That amount of time would be substantial.

* It would prevent that time being spent on new stuff.

* I personally would prefer to see new stuff rather than modifications to old stuff.

* If they did do it, I would probably make use of it for certain characters.

 

(Final note: I'm not convinced by the arguments for Kaliyo's "bi" nature, but I don't care to enter a debate about *why* that's the case. It comes down to my opinion versus other people's, and that's generally a source of futile bickering.)

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Kaliyo claims she isn't romantically attracted to women, but I don't really believe her. One of the recurring notes in her personal story (both her vanilla companion quests and Anarchy in Paradise) is how terrible she is at really knowing and understanding herself. So I personally would lean towards putting her on the list.

 

Mako, I could see. Maybe not for anyone else, but definitely for her Grand Champion. (And for Coral. I mean, uh, forget I said anything. <.<)

 

Vector, probably. I have to imagine that when you're hooked up to a hive mind of alien bugs, things like humanoid genders (or humanoids, period) don't seem all that important.

 

Quinn would give it a try if he thought it would advance his career, but then he died on Iokath so it doesn't much matter. :rak_03:

 

Risha, I mean... aristocrat. Says it all, really.

 

Doc. Nobody can be that aggressively "oh, yes, I am 100% into women" without trying to hide something.

 

Gualt already has a significant other, Hylo Visz, so shouldn't be on any romancable lists at all.. it's like half his entire history and future, and she's too important to him as a character.

 

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a threesome to me.

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Would like to point out that you mixed up Risha, Elara, Tanno, Bowdaar, Languss Tuno and Forex. Elara, Forex, and Tanno are Trooper. Risha, Languss Tuno and Bowdaar is Smuggler.

 

Fixed ;)

 

DS Jaesa never seemed to care who she "did it" with. So I'd say she's defs Bi.

 

I would agree with that, experiencing the freedom with her emotions that she once had to surpress can lead to many truths she didn't allow herself to feel or acknowledge due to the restrictive nature of the Jedi and 'feelings'.

 

One of the original companions is bi-sexual : Akaavi Spar. If you romance her and talk about the Mandalorian concept of "love" she will tell you that phrase in Mando'a, the one meaning " I will know you forever". If you tell her that phrase, she will say something like " no man or woman have ever told me that" . Sure, by "woman" you could understand mother,sister, clan sister, but here she is definitely talking about "woman" as in "lover", not as in "family/clan member".

 

Agreed, she is very much so talking about a woman in terms of love she is capable of giving. Therefore there's no reason imo she shouldn't be a romanceable option for a female character as well, it wouldn't break her lore, and seeing her again there should be the dialogue options to pursue such. 100% agreed there.

 

 

Kaliyo claims she isn't romantically attracted to women, but I don't really believe her. One of the recurring notes in her personal story (both her vanilla companion quests and Anarchy in Paradise) is how terrible she is at really knowing and understanding herself. So I personally would lean towards putting her on the list.

 

I very much can see this being the case as well, kind of like Jack in the Mass Effect series. As she grows more into understanding herself, and her feelings for the player she commits to them, but it's really ONLY for the player to get that close to her in such a way. Kaliyo could very much be the same way. She honestly could address it the way Jack does with her 'attracted to you but not looking for love, too many issues" etc perspective, but eventually come around as you grow closer. It would make her harder to romance but possible, more so about how much she grows to care about/love you. Not like we haven't seen BioWare do similar.

 

Mako, I could see. Maybe not for anyone else, but definitely for her Grand Champion. (And for Coral. I mean, uh, forget I said anything. <.<)

 

Agreed, I could see Mako as well, but only for her Champion, and to be honest Mako is probably one of the ones I wanted to romance the most on my Bounty Hunter. It just fit, and I couldn't put it into words. But yes, it most definitely would be something she only felt for the main character's bounty hunter and if any other woman tried they'd fail.

 

Vector, probably. I have to imagine that when you're hooked up to a hive mind of alien bugs, things like humanoid genders (or humanoids, period) don't seem all that important.

 

Yes, you make a very good point there, there's a strong chance gender may not likely matter all things considered in his case.

 

Quinn would give it a try if he thought it would advance his career, but then he died on Iokath so it doesn't much matter. :rak_03:

 

Quinn seems the type to do whatever is necessary to get ahead or play whatever role he needed to play.

 

Risha, I mean... aristocrat. Says it all, really.

 

:eek::D

Edited by SithtobeJedi
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I had a long post in response but the stupid forums deleted it. I'll try to remember as much of it as I can.

 

Anyway, queer people don't have any one personality type. I fail to see how you can conclude anything anything about the class companions' respective sexualities based on what "makes sense with their personality." Any of them could have been queer. But by the same token, I don't think any individual companion needed to be written as queer for their character to make sense.

 

Dark Jaesa might be a promiscuous hedonist (at least, at first) but that doesn't mean she can't have preferences. In fact, late in the game she specifically mentions that "uncomplicated strong men" are "her type." Just because someone is promiscuous doesn't mean they are necessarily bisexual. And just because someone is a promiscuous bisexual doesn't mean that they are willing to have sex with anyone. Isabela from Dragon Age 2 is a good example of that.

 

Vector could theoretically be bisexual, but I don't think him being a Joiner would have anything to do with it. Are you saying that the Joining process also erases sexuality? Would a lesbian become physically or romantically attracted to men if the Kiliks got their hands on her?

 

Also I went back and looked up Akaavi's romance conversations. She says "I have only heard it in stories. No man or women I knew ever said it." That doesn't necessarily imply she was talking about her partners saying it to her. It sounds to me more like she meant that no Mandalorian she has known has ever said it to any other person.

 

I think that Kaliyo is the only one who the game suggests has had sexual relations with people of the same sex. But the game had the opportunity to canonize her as bisexual in Anarchy in Paradise, but still chose to have her say she was straight. That suggests it's possible that the devs always specifically envisioned her as heterosexual.

 

Now the question of whether they would or should be open to same sex romance when returned is a separate question. I have mixed feelings on the issue.

 

We know they aren't "gay" because we know they are interested in the opposite sex by virtue of the very fact that they are vanilla class romance options. Some of them reference gender in their dialogue more explicitly than others, but technically this only tells us that they are interested in one gender, not that they aren't interested in the other.

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Kaliyo claims she isn't romantically attracted to women.

 

I know that I agreed with your entire point, but I wanted to comment on this statement about Kaliyo. Which I've seen a lot of in general. So this isn't a reply to your overall point (which I agree with) just the statement in general about Kaliyo that I quoted/hear a lot.

 

Kaliyo it is strongly implied to have been in a romantic relationship with Ona Querit before running away. Don't forget Ona Querit was so broken hearted when she abandoned her that she cried for a month. That's heartbreak. Not to mention Kaliyo was the one that seduced her and brought her into the lifestyle before running away as she always did.

 

So it seems that Kaliyo did have a "far closer than friends" relationship with Menace but she ran away as was her MO, and the broken hearted girl then learned to do the things Kaliyo did and became stronger and eventually a bounty hunter. It's one of the reasons I'd love for Ona Querit to be a new companion if they were looking for an additional Romanceable option in the future, because I find her story very intriguing and I'd love to have Kalyo's rival on my side as one character while dealing with Kaliyo on the other, it would be very interesting.

 

Nonetheless whenever someone goes on about Kaliyo never having been romantically interested in a girl, it was very clear that Ona Querit was hers, perhaps what became of her is why Kaliyo tries to avoid such things now considering the last time she did she broke a girl's heart and she wound up turning her into a bounty hunter, a lifestyle she deep down didn't want for her. So you could look into that as to why Kaliyo avoid's such relationships now, and from a narrative sense that would make perfect sense.

 

 

Just wanted to bring that up ^_^

Edited by SithtobeJedi
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Vette vs the Female Warrior is established as a very BFF/Kid Sister style relationship. Vette never gives any sort of indication of any opportunity for something more than friendship. Additionally, Vette is a really slow burn for the romance with the male Warrior, taking a long time to eventually trust and warm up to him. Last bit of evidence would be, if romancing both Vette and DS Jaesa, there comes a time to choose between them. Options are 1) Vette; 2) Jaesa; 3) I deserve both. If you select option 3, Vette becomes disgusted at the idea of sharing the Warrior or having Jaesa be a part of their relationship, and terminates the romance. Vette is very apprehensive about trusting people, very slow to warm up to a relationship, and quick to shut down on any little issue, with some massive affection hits when she witnesses anything she disapproves of. Vette's actions seem to suggest she is not open to even experimenting with something she's unsure of.

 

Quinn - Quinn keeps his emotions really guarded, even when romancing the female Warrior. He can marry the Warrior, and then still betray and try to kill her. Twice, if you consider the Republic path in Knights of the Feet. Emotionally, everything Quinn professes about love is 100% lip service; he says it but he does not back it up with his actions. His true love is Power, which is why he betrays the Warrior for Baras and potentially betrays the Warrior again for Acina. Power has no gender. If Baras had wanted Quinn as a concubine, Quinn would have likely done it. He already uses his relationship with the Warrior just to manipulate the Warrior, so he's not above physical relations to gain advantage. Quinn strikes me as someone who could have same sex relations, but he would never be actually a good boyfriend or husband.

 

Pierce - Pierce's extent to romantic involvement is having a fling with the Female Warrior that he is even willing to verbally commit to making a part of his regular duties, and then having a laugh at the expense of a fellow Black Ops operative when she has to sleep with an old man to gain what they need. Both of these suggest he accepts sex as 'part of the job' and he's willing to do whatever it takes in order to get the job done. Not unrealistic with that attitude to think that Pierce would be willing to be involved in same sex relationships.

 

Light Jaesa: Light Jaesa rejects advances from the Male Warrior, unwilling to pursue a relationship. Light Jaesa DOES tell the Female Warrior that she has considered having a relationship and responds positively when the Female Warrior encourages her to start a family and have children. However, in that discussion with the Female Warrior, Light Jaesa attaches "relationship" with "children" as a total package she is interested in. Based on her rebuff of the Male Warrior, it seems as though Light Jaesa has little interest in sex or dating, but does have some interest in having and raising children, which suggests she would only be interested in relationships with a male (and not be particularly close to that male in the end anyways, just sort of using them as a donor).

 

Dark Jaesa - When Vette tries to force the Male Warrior to choose between the two of them, and the Warrior asks for both like a pig, Dark Jaesa essentially shrugs and is cool with it. Vette is disgusted, but Jaesa has no qualms. DJ really embraces the idea of gaining strength through passion, and she'll take that Passion anywhere she can get. Dark Jaesa is DEFINITELY designed to be open to all romantic partners.

 

Broonmark - Does very little romantically during his time with the Warrior. Makes no mention of having a mate or children, and actively slaughters his own clan for shaming them. Honestly, Broonmark subscribes to relationships and family (or Clan, as he calls it) outside of the conventions of his race, and has no outward expression of interest in having children. If anything, I think Broonmark has the likelihood of being entirely Gay.

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I know that I agreed with your entire point, but I wanted to comment on this statement about Kaliyo. Which I've seen a lot of in general. So this isn't a reply to your overall point (which I agree with) just the statement in general about Kaliyo that I quoted/hear a lot.

 

Kaliyo it is strongly implied to have been in a romantic relationship with Ona Querit before running away. Don't forget Ona Querit was so broken hearted when she abandoned her that she cried for a month. That's heartbreak. Not to mention Kaliyo was the one that seduced her and brought her into the lifestyle before running away as she always did.

 

So it seems that Kaliyo did have a "far closer than friends" relationship with Menace but she ran away as was her MO, and the broken hearted girl then learned to do the things Kaliyo did and became stronger and eventually a bounty hunter. It's one of the reasons I'd love for Ona Querit to be a new companion if they were looking for an additional Romanceable option in the future, because I find her story very intriguing and I'd love to have Kalyo's rival on my side as one character while dealing with Kaliyo on the other, it would be very interesting.

 

Nonetheless whenever someone goes on about Kaliyo never having been romantically interested in a girl, it was very clear that Ona Querit was hers, perhaps what became of her is why Kaliyo tries to avoid such things now considering the last time she did she broke a girl's heart and she wound up turning her into a bounty hunter, a lifestyle she deep down didn't want for her. So you could look into that as to why Kaliyo avoid's such relationships now, and from a narrative sense that would make perfect sense.

 

 

Just wanted to bring that up ^_^

 

Or it could be that Ona liked Kaliyo more than Kaliyo liked her.

 

Kaliyo says she's straight. Has no interest in women. No reason to doubt this. However, there is no reason to doubt that Kaliyo wouldn't use a woman interested in her because it suited her needs.

 

Episode of Mom had Bonnie (good show for any who haven't seen it) who may just have a lot in common with Kaliyo, do such a thing. Got with a women because the woman liked her and it gave her a roof over her head for her and her daughter.

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Light Jaesa rejects advances from the Male Warrior, unwilling to pursue a relationship. Light Jaesa DOES tell the Female Warrior that she has considered having a relationship and responds positively when the Female Warrior encourages her to start a family and have children.

 

Light Jaesa should seriously just adopt. There's gotta be plenty of war orphans, right?

 

Kaliyo says she's straight. Has no interest in women. No reason to doubt this.

 

Well, personally, I doubt pretty much everything Kaliyo says, because a) she's not above lying - see the sad-sack story she tells you about fleeing from her homeworld ahead of a lynch mob, which was a total fabrication - b) she's a total flake; she walks out on every commitment in her entire storyline except the agent, and she doesn't seem too broken up about that either, and c) her own vision of her core values swings wildly between "anarchist" and "petty tyrant" with little to no warning. She often expresses remorse but never follows through on it without the player prompting her. She says she's going to change but never does. She claims one thing, and then claims something wildly different down the line, with the same straight face. Kaliyo is either a pathological liar, or has no control over her own worse nature (or both). Either way I don't consider her a very trustworthy source.

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Kaliyo it is strongly implied to have been in a romantic relationship with Ona Querit before running away. Don't forget Ona Querit was so broken hearted when she abandoned her that she cried for a month. That's heartbreak. Not to mention Kaliyo was the one that seduced her and brought her into the lifestyle before running away as she always did.

 

So it seems that Kaliyo did have a "far closer than friends" relationship with Menace but she ran away as was her MO, and the broken hearted girl then learned to do the things Kaliyo did and became stronger and eventually a bounty hunter. It's one of the reasons I'd love for Ona Querit to be a new companion if they were looking for an additional Romanceable option in the future, because I find her story very intriguing and I'd love to have Kalyo's rival on my side as one character while dealing with Kaliyo on the other, it would be very interesting.

 

Nonetheless whenever someone goes on about Kaliyo never having been romantically interested in a girl, it was very clear that Ona Querit was hers, perhaps what became of her is why Kaliyo tries to avoid such things now considering the last time she did she broke a girl's heart and she wound up turning her into a bounty hunter, a lifestyle she deep down didn't want for her. So you could look into that as to why Kaliyo avoid's such relationships now, and from a narrative sense that would make perfect sense.

 

 

Just wanted to bring that up ^_^

 

We know from Kaliyo's many relationships that she seems to display an almost sociopathic disregard for the feelings of (most of) the people she dates. A big part of her character backstory is that she uses and discards lovers when she gets bored of them or they cease to be useful to her. I think it's pretty obvious that Kaliyo was in a relationship with Ona, but the implication I got from that scene was that she was just another person in a long line of lovers that Kalyio used and abandoned without really caring about them.

 

Quinn - Quinn keeps his emotions really guarded, even when romancing the female Warrior. He can marry the Warrior, and then still betray and try to kill her. Twice, if you consider the Republic path in Knights of the Feet. Emotionally, everything Quinn professes about love is 100% lip service; he says it but he does not back it up with his actions. His true love is Power, which is why he betrays the Warrior for Baras and potentially betrays the Warrior again for Acina. Power has no gender. If Baras had wanted Quinn as a concubine, Quinn would have likely done it. He already uses his relationship with the Warrior just to manipulate the Warrior, so he's not above physical relations to gain advantage. Quinn strikes me as someone who could have same sex relations, but he would never be actually a good boyfriend or husband.

 

Quinn doesn't betray The Sith Warrior for personal power, he betrays them because he believes in Darth Baras and his vision. And because he feels he owes a debt to him. I think you can make a good case that Quinn is a bad romantic partner given that he will side with his superior against his own wife. But that doesn't mean the entire romance arc was a lie. It seems especially unlikely that he was in a relationship with the Warrior just to manipulate her because, as I recall, she's the one who has to pursue him. You could maybe say that his true love is his perceived duty to the Empire.

 

 

Dark Jaesa - When Vette tries to force the Male Warrior to choose between the two of them, and the Warrior asks for both like a pig, Dark Jaesa essentially shrugs and is cool with it. Vette is disgusted, but Jaesa has no qualms. DJ really embraces the idea of gaining strength through passion, and she'll take that Passion anywhere she can get. Dark Jaesa is DEFINITELY designed to be open to all romantic partners.

 

I don't know about that. Jaesa says she's "very open minded about sharing" but that was could have been just a jab at Vette. We know that although Jaesa doesn't mind that the Sith Warrior dates other people at first, once they get more serious she demands that he commit to her alone. The Sith Warrior's "I will have you both" line didn't specifically indicate that he meant "at the same time."

 

The fact that Jaesa is extremely passionate does not automatically mean she is bisexual. The fact that she can be promiscuous does not mean she is bisexual. That's a stereotype. A Sith like her could just as easily be gay or straight because only one gender would inspire passion and therefore power.

 

In Jaesa's case, her dialogue only ever refers to men in a romantic context: "I look around, see other men." Plus, her relationship with her Master develops a sexual dynamic pretty quickly, and the fact that it's absent with the female Warrior makes their relationship feel noticeably different. This doesn't prove she's straight, but still, it could be seen as possible insight into how she was intended to be written.

 

Broonmark - Does very little romantically during his time with the Warrior. Makes no mention of having a mate or children, and actively slaughters his own clan for shaming them. Honestly, Broonmark subscribes to relationships and family (or Clan, as he calls it) outside of the conventions of his race, and has no outward expression of interest in having children. If anything, I think Broonmark has the likelihood of being entirely Gay.

 

Again, why would Broonmark having no interest in a family mean he might be gay? There is no connection between those two things.

 

Well, personally, I doubt pretty much everything Kaliyo says, because a) she's not above lying - see the sad-sack story she tells you about fleeing from her homeworld ahead of a lynch mob, which was a total fabrication - b) she's a total flake; she walks out on every commitment in her entire storyline except the agent, and she doesn't seem too broken up about that either, and c) her own vision of her core values swings wildly between "anarchist" and "petty tyrant" with little to no warning. She often expresses remorse but never follows through on it without the player prompting her. She says she's going to change but never does. She claims one thing, and then claims something wildly different down the line, with the same straight face. Kaliyo is either a pathological liar, or has no control over her own worse nature (or both). Either way I don't consider her a very trustworthy source.

 

She doesn't really have much of a reason to lie in this case, though.

Edited by OldVengeance
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the implication I got from that scene was that she was just another person in a long line of lovers that Kalyio used and abandoned without really caring about them.

 

I suppose I always interpreted that a little differently. I feel like Kaliyo's reactions when she's face to face with her past, or when the agent or outlander calls her on it, suggests that she does feel remorse, that she does care, but she can't stop herself from impulsively leaving anyway - it's like an addiction. On some level she knows that what she's doing will just hurt everyone, including herself, but she's compelled to anyway. Very tragic.

 

Of course I'm probably just reading way too much into it, but hey, that's what forums are for, right?

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Light Jaesa should seriously just adopt. There's gotta be plenty of war orphans, right?

 

 

 

Well, personally, I doubt pretty much everything Kaliyo says, because a) she's not above lying - see the sad-sack story she tells you about fleeing from her homeworld ahead of a lynch mob, which was a total fabrication - b) she's a total flake; she walks out on every commitment in her entire storyline except the agent, and she doesn't seem too broken up about that either, and c) her own vision of her core values swings wildly between "anarchist" and "petty tyrant" with little to no warning. She often expresses remorse but never follows through on it without the player prompting her. She says she's going to change but never does. She claims one thing, and then claims something wildly different down the line, with the same straight face. Kaliyo is either a pathological liar, or has no control over her own worse nature (or both). Either way I don't consider her a very trustworthy source.

 

Why would she lie about having no interest in women, other than using them a few times in her life?

 

That wouldn't serve her and would've served her to totally hook up with the leader of the Alliance. Which we know she's done many times.

 

Or is this a matter of "I want Kaliyo to be bi, so my female characters can have a chance, who cares about what was written"?

 

Before that scene on Zakuul. I would've thought Kaliyo bi, due to her class story, that quest clears it up pretty well. She isn't bi, she is a user. We knew the user part already though. :p

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I think I should strongly clarify something here. Maybe people don't remember the scene or otherwise.

 

Kaliyo never said she was never interested in women. She referred to the fact that if she were to get into a relationship with your character(whom is female and NOT the agent) she would play head games with you, which she says that's all she seems good for when it comes to women. And she won't, because she actually likes you. So she's saving you from a relationship with her where she would take advantage of how you feel, in order to get you to do what she wants you to do or behave a way she wants you to behave.

 

NOW... does that mean Kaliyo isn't into women romantically? No. It means that from her history with women when she is romantically involved she winds up only using them and hurting them.

 

The game actually provides proof of this if you play through the IA storyline. Because as a character I mentioned earlier, Ona Querit, her rival. The woman she seduced and then ran away with and brought her into this lifestyle, but eventually wound up hurting her and leaving her behind so that she cried for a month, before taking up on the Bounty Hunting business and hunting her down. "Menace" is who Kaliyo is referencing. You can take that as her being remorseful or her being understanding of herself.

 

She doesn't say she's not been romantically with women nor that she doesn't, what she's saying is that sooner or later they turn into her playing head games with them, which in turn wind up with her getting what she wants from them and leaving.

 

This is true to her character because it's very obvious she was romantically involved with Ona Querit, but what happened? She eventually wound up using her, and leaving her. She seems to be clarifying that relationships with women always wind up the same way, in some kind of head game where she hurts them. So she isn't saying she isn't interested in women, she's saying she's saving you from the trouble of a relationship with her, because they(with women) always end the same way, and she's getting 'too old' for that kind of thing.

 

Note, if you try to flirt with her as a Male, she will approve just like she does with the female, and she'll turn you down.

 

Kaliyo isn't turning you down because she isn't into women, she's turning you down because from past experience(Ona Querit specifically with whom she seems to have genuine remorse) that it's gonna end the same way. And because she actually likes you, she doesn't want to eventually hurt you when the romance becomes head games becomes you getting hurt.

 

It's no different than when my friend was very interested in a girl whom was bisexual, they were close as could be, but my friend didn't date her, NOT because she wasn't interested, but because she in her own words told her "I'm a better friend than a girlfriend, trust me." because her relationships with girls always wound up going one way.

 

Did that make her not bi-sexual? No. It meant that she didn't want to risk going down a path she was sure was gonna end with her getting used/hurt.

 

When Kaliyo says this, she's speaking of Ona Querit, and likely other scenarios too.

 

She also is known to do that in general, including to a man in that very storyline when your fem agent reunites with her(in KOTFE). Tayvor. If you pick the option your female agent tells Tayvor "Tell me, Tayvor. Did she come into your life, convince you you were special,(this part makes Kaliyo give a brief impish smile at how well the Agent knows her) take everything she could, and then abandon you?"

 

To which Kaliyo responds smiling at you "You know me too well."

 

So I'll say imo if we go by the dialogue, Kaliyo doesn't turn you down cause she isn't interested in women sexually(she turns down the male too), she's turning you down because if it became anything more, it was gonna end with her hurting you, using you, and leaving, and she likes you too much to risk putting you through it.

 

As I said earlier, when it comes to women, I think Menace is the reason for this, because of how that turned out, and that stopped Kaliyo from pursuing romance with another woman again, because she didn't want another "Menace" to be created because of her. That doesn't place her above getting with women sexually or using them, nor does it ean she isn't attracted to women. It means that she feels she'll be more reliable to you(The Outlander) as a friend than as a girlfriend, cause as a girlfriend it's gonna end one way. The only person she'd likely break that for, is the Imperial Agent.

 

Why do I say that? Because she turns down any character that's NOT the Imperial Agent she has history with male or female.

 

Remember what she turns down, she turns down the chance to have drinks, share secrets, get to know each other 'deeper', because of what it could lead to.

 

HOWEVER... if you are the female Imperial Agent, she shows jealousy in you finding SCORPIO before her, she'll react sarcastically to you taking so long to find her. Even teasing you about it.

 

She will start to mention in the apartment beforehand her feelings of you, after you being gone for 5 years where she thought you were dead before stopping herself and 're-Kaliyo'ing herself. "You come back to life, after everything I... (sighs and looks down and gathers herself) after five years.." the emotion she shows, and is animated on her face and emote there is probably the most honest moment Kaliyo has had.

 

On top of that there's the moment she tells you, as her motivation for wanting to blow the thingup, "We had something special...and they ruined it." and the fact she only wants to do it with you and only will do it if you allow her. Speaks volumes about the person she was vs the person she's becoming.

 

And on top of all that SHE is the one that takes you somewhere private to 'have drinks and share stories...' in the same bar scene later, which is the very thing she denies every other person that isn't her agent.

 

The fact that she turns down everyone else, but is the one OFFERING to your agent (yes even if she's female) that is something of note.

 

Once more the only person it seems she feels close enough that she could ever 'break' that assumption for, is the Agent, and even the female Agent it seems, but it would be a very slow burn to convince her that you won't be another "Menace." which is a compelling story in and of itself, because it would mean she actually does care about that now. Unless she doesn't like you, then she'll use you all the same lol

 

I thought I'd clarify that a bit when it came to Kaliyo :) Sorry if I repeated myself a lot, I haven't slept in the last 2 days X_X

Edited by SithtobeJedi
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With respect, I think you're interpreting the dialogue differently to how it was intended.

 

When you flirt with her as a male, her response is "I'm too old for headgames. I could twist you around my finger, but it's not as fun as it used to be." When you flirt with her as a woman, her response is "I'm too old for headgames, and that's all I'm good for with women." That sort of sounds like there's an extra reason why she can't be a female Outlander's girlfriend.

 

You're also working under the assumption that Kaliyo actually feels remorse or empathy for all the people she hurts, which seems completely at odds with what we know about her character. Kaliyo hurt and continues to hurt countless people over the course of the story, even after the Agent disappears. In Ona's case, Kaliyo says she's "impressed" but she'd still rather kill Ona than apologize for what she did to her.

 

I also don't think any jealousy she feels about the Agent finding Scorpio is the romantic kind. It happens regardless of the Agent's romantic status with Kaliyo and it's not like Scorpio herself is a rival romantic interest. And Kaliyo seems like the last person to pine over someone who isn't romantically interested in her.

 

It think Anarchy in Paradise does suggest she genuinely cares about the the Agent, male or female. But since only previously romanced Agents can actually romance her, that suggest to me she is still deliberately being written as heterosexual.

 

If I got to Anarchy in Paradise with my Female Agent, I might have picked a flirt option with Kaliyo, but there aren't any for female Agents or unromanced male Agents. That means female Agents are the only people who never get to flirt with Kaliyo at any point.

Edited by OldVengeance
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Why would she lie about having no interest in women, other than using them a few times in her life?

 

Because it's a compulsion. Kaliyo doesn't always make the best decisions for Kaliyo - that's abundantly clear in pretty much every storyline she has. (For one thing, if she was really that ruthless and collected, she would shoot her partners before leaving them, so she wouldn't have such a comet's tail of them following her around.) Her rational self is not the one in control, at least not all the time - maybe not even most of the time.

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Because it's a compulsion. Kaliyo doesn't always make the best decisions for Kaliyo - that's abundantly clear in pretty much every storyline she has. (For one thing, if she was really that ruthless and collected, she would shoot her partners before leaving them, so she wouldn't have such a comet's tail of them following her around.) Her rational self is not the one in control, at least not all the time - maybe not even most of the time.

 

Yes, remember, she won't detonate the bombs unless the Agent allows it. She wants to do it with you, but if you don't want to blow up the civilians and leave her to decide, she doesn't do it, but she stops the robots from working.

 

Even so, what I think Kaliyo likes about the agent, male or female, is that she isn't always in control, like she feels it's someone she couldn't manipulate even if she tried, and in a way, I think that is what attracts her most to the Agent and made her feelings become all the more genuine.

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Because it's a compulsion. Kaliyo doesn't always make the best decisions for Kaliyo - that's abundantly clear in pretty much every storyline she has. (For one thing, if she was really that ruthless and collected, she would shoot her partners before leaving them, so she wouldn't have such a comet's tail of them following her around.) Her rational self is not the one in control, at least not all the time - maybe not even most of the time.

 

Kaliyo lies to people so she can use them to her advantage.

Edited by OldVengeance
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Kaliyo lies to people so she can use them to her advantage.

 

Kaliyo lies to people so she can use them to her advantage.

 

And that is why she has only personal moments with the Agent.

 

Again, her 'head game' comment people were using to say "Kaliyo has no interest in women" when that's a pretty big leap.

 

You could argue she's bisexual but prefers men romantically as she sees romance with women as eventually always leading to head games. That doesn't mean she isn't bisexual, it would just mean she has her preferences.

 

After Ona the only woman she I feel could ever by canon get with is the Imperial Agent, but even then it would be a very slow burn and would probably take more storytelling than the developers may want to do. At the same time it isn't impossible, nor is it out of the question.

 

If the question is if Kaliyo is bisexual, the answer is yes. If the question is could Kaliyo be legitimately be romanced by any other female outside of potentially the Imperial Agent? The answer would be no.

 

Part of the reason she hasn't tried to romance the Imperial Agent yet is because she knows she can't be manipulated by her, in a way, Kaliyo seems to really like that. Cause she is forced to have honest moments with her. If anything, Kaliyo bends to her will more than she would with anyone else. With anyone else Kaliyo would have just blown up the city, but she only wants to do it if the Agent wants to do it, because of the life she felt they stole from her and the agent, and how they ruined the "special" thing they had. Down to the point it's implied she seduced the man's own daughter to get those bombs planted around the city.

 

So once more, if they decided to make Kaliyo romanceable in the future for the female Imperial Agent, after the long burn of all their adventures, it wouldn't be out of character or out of the question. Once more, she turns down the same thing from male or female if you aren't the agent, and she offers it to the agent instead of being asked.

 

 

So once more, it's not out of the question that she is bisexual,in fact that's heavily implied, she likes to seduce both men and women, it's also not out of the question that while it may be the case, she prefers men romantically, and has her own reasons on why she doesn't pursue women as anything more than physical/manipulative ventures. All except the people she actually likes.

 

But once more, she'd be a character whom would ONLY commit that far for your own Imperial Agent, if anyone else tried, the same thing would happen, she'd be into them romantically and with the thrill of the adventures, till she got bored and went elsewhere, though by the time KOTFE she seems to have matured some, but only a few chapters past that you see she hasn't change THAT much :D

 

 

Again, always open to interpretation, and it's always good to have healthy back and forth about such things :) It means the characters have depth worth digging deeper into ^_^

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I'm surprised nobody mentioned Theran Cedrax (although he is into Holiday), or Talos.

Seems like they could have been Bi- characters.

 

That's the one thing that bothered me about Cythanet(sp?) the sith guy on Makeb.

They didn't give an option of Player-sexual. You couldn't flirt with him as a female.

 

And Scourge wasn't romancable Come on, there has to be ONE Red Sith Male that's romancable!!!

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I'm surprised nobody mentioned Theran Cedrax (although he is into Holiday), or Talos.

 

Tharan is pretty clearly Holidaysexual, thanks in no small part to her jealousy. (Poor guy. :( ) As for Talos... maybe if you're Marka Ragnos? (Or was he a Naga Sadow man...?)

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