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Problem with Darth Vader


wilsonstone's Avatar


wilsonstone
12.16.2014 , 07:36 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Yes, keep saying that untill you are on the recieving end of someone else's means.
Truth is Anakin was a whiny, selfish arrogant *****....just the kind of person that would say "The ends justify the means".....evil.

The ends do not always justify the means, for the exact same reason you just said.

(because saying it was typed not said is a cop out....we all know what Kaedusz meant.)
"The SWTOR forums....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

Jarcen's Avatar


Jarcen
01.01.2015 , 02:33 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?
I have often wondered why Vader is seen as the person who would bring balance to the Force. That is most cryptic given what we've seen first in the OT, and then in the PT. Then just a few ago it hit me: he did bring balance. I first thought of the Old Republic as it was in the events of Ep 1-3, and maybe a few years before it. It was corrupt. Bureaucracy can be bought for a price. The Jedi, being the protectors of that society, could not have possibly remained above such corruption. Perhaps not directly, but even by the mere fact that it is protecting and preserving that society against, ironically, the Sith has made it in contact with that corruption. We have not been told directly, but I think it is at least implied that the Jedi itself has been tainted. Thus the need for a purge. Thus the events that led to Anakin being the instrument to that. When I realized that, it all made sense why he was the one foretold who would bring about balance.

So with all that, how come the Jedi Masters, especially Yoda, has not realized that--and indeed what he could only tell is that Anakin's future was cloudy? I have two theories on that: one, the Jedi Masters, and even Yoda himself, has been somehow affected by that corruption. Again maybe not directly nor to a great extent, but nonetheless tainted. So they could not totally see the role Anakin has to play. Another theory I have is that Yoda knew all along all that might happen but decided not to reveal to others to spare them the grief and possibly even attempt on killing Anakin--which would then prevent the prophecy from being fulfilled.

So from purging the Jedi of corruption, the Sith came back to power. But that would mean another imbalance in the Force, so for the last time Anakin as Vader would have to bring everything full circle, by killing the Emperor and sacrificing himself (with of course the help of his son). So with all that, as it is said, the circle was now complete and balance was fully restored with a leaner, purge Jedi as well as the Sith brought back in control. And so the prophecy was fulfilled.

Mubrak's Avatar


Mubrak
01.01.2015 , 02:53 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Jarcen View Post
I have often wondered why Vader is seen as the person who would bring balance to the Force. That is most cryptic given what we've seen first in the OT, and then in the PT. Then just a few ago it hit me: he did bring balance.
Of course he did, at the end of Ep 3 there were 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left - perfect balance.

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
01.01.2015 , 03:17 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?
Ugh, I hated that scene for exactly that reason. It was just more of Lucas hamfisted flailing about and stripping Anakin's story of any semblance of tragedy or sympathy. I mean seriously, he had 'fallen' like 5 minutes before and here he is, cheerfully cutting down a room full of toddlers.

Remind me again how it was totally the tragic story of a hero falling into darkness for love, and not the story of a narcissistic ******* who goes psycho-sadist the minute he's let off his leash.

Doubly ironic coming from Lucas, the same guy who made Greedo shoot first because he said Han shooting first to save his own life would have made him some kind of psychotic murderer.

It's a shame he hadn't thought of that scene in the original trilogy. I could just see Vader laying there dying and going , "Hey Luke, did I ever tell you about the time I decapitated a bunch of 5 year olds? Man, those were the days."

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.01.2015 , 03:38 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Mubrak View Post
Of course he did, at the end of Ep 3 there were 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left - perfect balance.
Not sure if serious but that isn't how balance worked.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.01.2015 , 06:57 AM | #26
I think the point is that nobody is beyond redemption and that nobody is truly "evil", in that respect Sidious is more of a metaphorical concept that an actual person, he represents evil as a concept and as something that can be exorcised. He represents all the negativity inside Vader, but also represents that that negativity isn't intrinsic to him.

In that respect I think Yoda and Kenobi in their hardline approach to Vader as somebody beyond saving, as something that needs to be destroyed, is supposed to be seen as wrong, and represents how we all to often perceive seemingly "monstrous" people as beyond saving, and that the only way to deal with them is by destroying them.

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
01.01.2015 , 07:03 AM | #27
who is more evil? to be born evil, or through great effort to overcome your good nature and become evil
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.01.2015 , 07:04 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
who is more evil? to be born evil, or through great effort to overcome your good nature and become evil
People aren't born good or evil.

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
01.01.2015 , 07:05 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
People aren't born good or evil.
Vitiate says hello.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.01.2015 , 07:14 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Vitiate says hello.
Vitiate is a fictional character from a fantasy universe.