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Problem with Darth Vader


migzmando's Avatar


migzmando
12.11.2014 , 08:35 AM | #1
I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.11.2014 , 09:20 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I understand, in the end we are made to believe Luke redeemed Anakin. However, this is the same guy who murdered countless younglings in ROTS. How is a character so evil able to be redeemed? And how is he then accepted by the other jedi ghosts when his crimes were so heinous?
Because he saved the galaxy from the Emperor who plotted the entire downfall of the Republic? Also it's not like Anakin killed them without any remorse, we see him literally crying afterwards for what he had done, it's not like he was 100% evil. Also the Jedi aren't suppose to harbor any ill will to others, sure it was rather a devastating thing, but they aren't gonna stay mad forever, they know that those killed are now one with The Force and are at peace.

They are trained to understand and not have emotion get in the way of things, they aren't gonna stay mad at Anakin, especially when he killed the guy who not only planned the downfall of the Republic, but also who manipulated him, destroyed the Jedi Order and was then trying to manipulate Luke.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

migzmando's Avatar


migzmando
12.11.2014 , 09:23 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Because he saved the galaxy from the Emperor who plotted the entire downfall of the Republic? Also it's not like Anakin killed them without any remorse, we see him literally crying afterwards for what he had done, it's not like he was 100% evil. Also the Jedi aren't suppose to harbor any ill will to others, sure it was rather a devastating thing, but they aren't gonna stay mad forever, they know that those killed are now one with The Force and are at peace.

I agree, sort of. But, to me, it makes him seem kind of selfish that it took seeing his own son suffer at the Emperor's hands for him to finally act. What about all the suffering he himself inflicted on all the sons of others?

I don't know, I'm just conflicted with the character lol

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.11.2014 , 11:17 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I agree, sort of. But, to me, it makes him seem kind of selfish that it took seeing his own son suffer at the Emperor's hands for him to finally act. What about all the suffering he himself inflicted on all the sons of others?

I don't know, I'm just conflicted with the character lol
Except it's the context of why he did it. Vader realized that the one who destroyed his life was himself. He knew this and it's why in the various books Vader acknowledges the thing he hates the most is himself. However, at that moment he realizes there's been another large factor for his problems. Palpatine himself. It wasn't entirely Vader's fault either. In the novelizations it makes it pretty clear that as Sidious talked to him he did use his own dark side to manipulate his thoughts and actions. He also was the one who was manipulating Anakin's dreams and created the false future that he himself eventually turned into a reality.

Anakin was as much a victim as everyone else. Yes he killed a lot of innocent people but it was through palpatine's manipulation. Plus Palpatine had another goal in mind other than just "Ruling the galaxy" he intended to turn the entire galaxy into darkness. Corrupt every aspect of the force and essentially rule as a dark side god. If the dark side is the only "Force" that exists then that means we have a universe where the only thing that can survive is negativity and corruption. Anakin prevented this from happening. Plus it's made clear it wasn't selfishness that made him step in to save Luke. He accepted the lightside.

migzmando's Avatar


migzmando
12.11.2014 , 11:55 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Except it's the context of why he did it. Vader realized that the one who destroyed his life was himself. He knew this and it's why in the various books Vader acknowledges the thing he hates the most is himself. However, at that moment he realizes there's been another large factor for his problems. Palpatine himself. It wasn't entirely Vader's fault either. In the novelizations it makes it pretty clear that as Sidious talked to him he did use his own dark side to manipulate his thoughts and actions. He also was the one who was manipulating Anakin's dreams and created the false future that he himself eventually turned into a reality.

Anakin was as much a victim as everyone else. Yes he killed a lot of innocent people but it was through palpatine's manipulation. Plus Palpatine had another goal in mind other than just "Ruling the galaxy" he intended to turn the entire galaxy into darkness. Corrupt every aspect of the force and essentially rule as a dark side god. If the dark side is the only "Force" that exists then that means we have a universe where the only thing that can survive is negativity and corruption. Anakin prevented this from happening. Plus it's made clear it wasn't selfishness that made him step in to save Luke. He accepted the lightside.
I see. Well said, thanks. So, in the end he realized that Palpatine was actually the source for all his problems, and that the entire time he had been brainwashed?

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.11.2014 , 12:38 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I see. Well said, thanks. So, in the end he realized that Palpatine was actually the source for all his problems, and that the entire time he had been brainwashed?
Yes. He also knew throwing Palpatine off was going to kill him but he did it anyway because it needed to be done. He knew by doing so he would save his son and the galaxy. So he willingly sacrificed himself as well. The Jedi forgave him because he made a choice that not only saved everyone but willingly ended his own life to do it. Self Sacrifice in the name of good has always been an ultimate expression of good in the media.

gsummers's Avatar


gsummers
12.12.2014 , 09:23 AM | #7
I agree with this issue of Darth Vader. It seems to me the killing of younglings was going a bit too far in trying to establish his 'evilness' in the eyes of the viewers. That said, you should watch the "How it should have ended" version of Return of the Jedi. Essentially ghost Anakin appears next to ghost Obi-wan and ghost Yoda, and at first he is excited, then pretty sad that Padme's not there. Then a whole slew of ghost Jedi children appear and say "you killed us when we were just babies". Yoda says "awkward, this is". Credits roll. Its pretty funny but also gets at the issue that you raised.

DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
12.12.2014 , 12:14 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I agree, sort of. But, to me, it makes him seem kind of selfish that it took seeing his own son suffer at the Emperor's hands for him to finally act. What about all the suffering he himself inflicted on all the sons of others?

I don't know, I'm just conflicted with the character lol
It wasn't so much his son's suffering that brought back Anakin Skywalker. While his son was being immolated by Force/Sith Lighting, Anakin was probably remembering a "disarmed" Chancellor Palpatine lying aside a broken office window with Jedi Master Mace Windu towering over him, purple bladed lightsaber in hand, fending off bolts of Force/Sith Lightning. It was Anakin's chance to do the right thing, to correct the bad choice had previously made 23 years prior.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
12.12.2014 , 12:16 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by migzmando View Post
I see. Well said, thanks. So, in the end he realized that Palpatine was actually the source for all his problems, and that the entire time he had been brainwashed?
I wouldn't call it brainwashing. Anakin Skywalker was the classic Faustian victim, presented with the ultimate way to get what HE wanted. To save his beloved by pledging his loyalty to the Devil.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

migzmando's Avatar


migzmando
12.12.2014 , 03:12 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by DarknessInLight View Post
It wasn't so much his son's suffering that brought back Anakin Skywalker. While his son was being immolated by Force/Sith Lighting, Anakin was probably remembering a "disarmed" Chancellor Palpatine lying aside a broken office window with Jedi Master Mace Windu towering over him, purple bladed lightsaber in hand, fending off bolts of Force/Sith Lightning. It was Anakin's chance to do the right thing, to correct the bad choice had previously made 23 years prior.

Good point. And I wonder, could Mace Windu have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not interfered?