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The Empire are the good guys?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
The Empire are the good guys?

JJKerryee's Avatar


JJKerryee
02.18.2019 , 02:34 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Couldn't agree more. Well said.

The idea that the Empire is somehow noble for at least being honest about what it is doesn't make sense to me at all. No, that just shows it's shameless and implacable about its evil. A wish to hide a wrongdoing does in some ways compound the wrongdoing, yet it also shows that at least the person can recognise the wrongdoing was bad enough to want to hide it, and thus has some potential for remorse and positive transformation.

Or maybe the wrongdoer doesn't believe it was bad, but knows others believe it was bad and wants to hide the action from those others - wants to avoid "bad press." But that admits a vulnerability to those others, a fear of the justice or revenge that could come about if the truth is known. As such, this wrongdoer is always in danger of being overcome, and thus somewhat less to be feared.

Being honest and open about evil is the most blatant assertion of a strong and wicked power structure. "Yes, I did it. I would do it again. And you can't stop me." That's the Empire. Many of my characters serve it happily and willingly, but that's a reflection of the various ways in which they've fooled themselves. Those may be interesting stories to tell, but I have no interest in myself being a person who sees things the Empire's way.
I completely agree with you here, as well. What I mainly don't understand is why a lot of imperial players think like this. Honestly, I love the Empire, but I love it for what it really is.

I don't try to justify what the Empire does, all of my dark side imperial characters realize what the Empire is and they stand behind those morals.
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Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
02.18.2019 , 04:52 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by JJKerryee View Post
I love the Empire, but I love it for what it really is. I don't try to justify what the Empire does, all of my dark side imperial characters realize what the Empire is and they stand behind those morals.
That's exactly how it is for me too. When I see so many people arguing that the Empire is somehow the good side, it makes me wonder if I'm losing my mind, so thanks for your posts. At least if I am losing it, I'm not alone.
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Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.18.2019 , 05:03 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by JJKerryee View Post
I completely agree with you here, as well. What I mainly don't understand is why a lot of imperial players think like this. Honestly, I love the Empire, but I love it for what it really is.

I don't try to justify what the Empire does, all of my dark side imperial characters realize what the Empire is and they stand behind those morals.
All of my characters are LS. The only Imperial I've been able to really enjoy playing long-term is my Inquisitor, who would be happy for the Empire to have a different government, but doesn't remotely trust the Republic to be a better solution for the Empire's people.

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
02.19.2019 , 08:34 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Trauglodyte View Post
EDIT: For the record, I do think that the quest writing has a lot to do with how this conversation is skewed. I'm playing through the Trooper right now and it couldn't be any more rainbow and kittens. Hell, most of the time you have an option to yell, "For the Republic!" and the dark side options aren't really dark. All of the Empire people, in which you run into with the Trooper, are all "monsters" and war criminals or your prior Havoc Squad team members that defected - for whatever reason, killing them wasn't even that dark. Meanwhile, on the Empire side, it feels like your options are killing everyone with a smile and just killing everyone.
If that's your opinion, fine, but the Trooper story has plenty of nuance. It sounds like you're on Taris. The planets after that are more subtle in their portrayal of both the Havoc traitors and the imperials: NS for the latter and Tat for the former. Before that, you have the option - and Garza specifically asks you - to bring Jek Kargan in alive on Coruscant. The Dark options aren't really dark? Like killing the room full of maybe cyborg civilians?
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SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
02.19.2019 , 11:36 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
If that's your opinion, fine, but the Trooper story has plenty of nuance. It sounds like you're on Taris. The planets after that are more subtle in their portrayal of both the Havoc traitors and the imperials: NS for the latter and Tat for the former. Before that, you have the option - and Garza specifically asks you - to bring Jek Kargan in alive on Coruscant. The Dark options aren't really dark? Like killing the room full of maybe cyborg civilians?
Compared to "Light == kill rebellious slaves by generously poisoning their water so they die quickly, Dark == kill them with just enough poison, so they die very slowly and in very great pain", no, they aren't dark at all.
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JJKerryee's Avatar


JJKerryee
02.19.2019 , 01:31 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
That's exactly how it is for me too. When I see so many people arguing that the Empire is somehow the good side, it makes me wonder if I'm losing my mind, so thanks for your posts. At least if I am losing it, I'm not alone.
Same. Sometimes I'm like am I the crazy one? At least we won't lose our minds alone.
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Trauglodyte's Avatar


Trauglodyte
02.19.2019 , 03:21 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by JJKerryee View Post
I completely agree with you here, as well. What I mainly don't understand is why a lot of imperial players think like this. Honestly, I love the Empire, but I love it for what it really is.

I don't try to justify what the Empire does, all of my dark side imperial characters realize what the Empire is and they stand behind those morals.
I don't think that you can, with a straight face, look at the Imperials as the "good guys" when they're conquering people, enslaving people, and coming up with weapons of extreme mass destruction that typically exists on a planetary, and even solar system, scale. But, I think that you do have the potential to look at the conflict in the present as simply a fight between two sides, thus you stop looking at good and bad and just pick someone that you'd like to win.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
If that's your opinion, fine, but the Trooper story has plenty of nuance. It sounds like you're on Taris. The planets after that are more subtle in their portrayal of both the Havoc traitors and the imperials: NS for the latter and Tat for the former. Before that, you have the option - and Garza specifically asks you - to bring Jek Kargan in alive on Coruscant. The Dark options aren't really dark? Like killing the room full of maybe cyborg civilians?
I just finished up Balmora. I've played the Trooper before but it was back in 2013, so I don't remember the story lines. I remember everything about the IA because I've done it like 7+ times. Anyway, SteveTheCynic put it, you can't compare choosing to shoot a traitor to cutting off a guy's head and sending it to his wife or killing a guy's wife and then waiting for him to show up, only to beat him and then kill him. Even the example that you posed, which was killing the Cyborgs on Nar Shada isn't even that dark - it was a grey choice in that you could save them and risk having them go "live" and killing everyone or accept the body count. A LOT of the Empire side's LS choices are, point of fact, still dark. Again, as Steve mentioned, you can kill slaves for fun and to end their rebellion or you can kill slaves slowly and painfully for fun and to end their rebellion. Where is the "Light" in that? First off, they're enslaved people (bad). Then you're killing them, for fighting for their freedom - they're not doing a great job of that, btw (bad) OR you're doing that and making them pay for it, as an example to any would be rebels (bad).

As I said before, so much of this is writing and the bias that comes with it. I didn't especially find the Sith Warrior or Inquisitor that dark. But, the influence of the movies tends to push both the writing and player choices purposely towards the darker side. The Bounty Hunter started out kind of dark and then mellowed out. All of the Republic side has dark side choices, obviously, but they, too, are lightened by the skew of what the movies made the Republic to be. That isn't to say that there aren't cruel choices - I killed the Balmorran at the end of the Trooper story, despite him not having a gun. The difference is THAT is considered Dark for the Republic where as that so greatly pails in comparison to the dark choices of the Empire.

In this discussion, none of us are right or wrong, since we all have opinions. But, I personally think that this game would be drastically different if:
  • There was the option for players to defect and

If you could honestly and actually be what you wanted to be and every story was really dictated by choice, this game could be even more amazing. As it stands, the Pubs will be the Diet Cola of Dark and the Empire will be angry Chihuahua Light. I'm just happy that my Op can swim in the entire ocean of choice and be whatever he wants to be. Too bad that everyone else doesn't have that option (or as rich of a class story).
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ApollosNight's Avatar


ApollosNight
02.19.2019 , 09:41 PM | #68
Frankly, it depends on what you mean by "good." If you're asking, "Does the Empire adhere to the Light Side of the Force?" then the answer is a categorical 'no.' If, on the other hand, you're asking, "Does the Empire adhere to a certain morality that is defined as 'good,'" then the question is really what standard of morality you're using.

You have the concept of racal superiority that the Empire was founded with. The Sith as a race and as a Force-sensitive class were viewed as superior to everyone else. Notice: were. It's clear that they began to revise this after Malgus' failed bid for the New Empire.

You have the dedication to the Dark Side of the Force. For some, this is an automatic BADGUYSEVILOMGSTOPTHEM. But that would, again, be ignoring the changes brought about under Empress Acina and the multitude of Sith Lords who were not sniveling, psychotic murderers (i.e. Lana Beniko, Darth Marr, etc.). The concept of "Light = Good, Dark = Bad" is just overly simplified.

You have the dedication of a people to a history and a culture that spans thousands of years with rulers who have developed a civilization and philosophy that values emotions, as opposed to the Jedi who suppress them. Only one of those keeps a person in touch with their natural personhood; the other seeks to suppress it.

The Empire is much less "BAD GUYZ" than Pubs like to paint it

irrevelant's Avatar


irrevelant
02.20.2019 , 02:18 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
If that's your opinion, fine, but the Trooper story has plenty of nuance. It sounds like you're on Taris. The planets after that are more subtle in their portrayal of both the Havoc traitors and the imperials: NS for the latter and Tat for the former. Before that, you have the option - and Garza specifically asks you - to bring Jek Kargan in alive on Coruscant. The Dark options aren't really dark? Like killing the room full of maybe cyborg civilians?
Those cyborgs are quite a threat. Who knows what kind of secret programming they might have. Such as reach a strong state, then blow up the senate, or join the army, then sabotage everything, or just sabotage stuff in a factory. They are dangerous, but all options are wrong.

Killing them is an obvious solution, but it's a waste of resources, and i don't really trust my enemy.

Letting them go simply is also a bad solution, because what if they truly dangerous.

Taking their IDs, and letting them go is same as second. If they are that good, then losing their IDs will not stop them.

The solution i would had: Force them to go to an army clinic where they get searched deeply. Literary. If nothing found, then they can go freely, and if anything found, then remove them if possible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Trauglodyte View Post
  • There was the option for players to defect and
That would be great, and i think we gona have it in future content. After all in the last 2 content we could take sides regardless of our class. But yeah my Sith Inquisitor would sabotage the Empire's war effort, or even defect without a second. In my story he wants to change the Empire, and erase racism and slavery. The only reason he doesn't defect is, because he don't want to get brainwashed for months by the jedi.

JJKerryee's Avatar


JJKerryee
02.20.2019 , 11:00 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by ApollosNight View Post
Frankly, it depends on what you mean by "good." If you're asking, "Does the Empire adhere to the Light Side of the Force?" then the answer is a categorical 'no.' If, on the other hand, you're asking, "Does the Empire adhere to a certain morality that is defined as 'good,'" then the question is really what standard of morality you're using.

You have the concept of racal superiority that the Empire was founded with. The Sith as a race and as a Force-sensitive class were viewed as superior to everyone else. Notice: were. It's clear that they began to revise this after Malgus' failed bid for the New Empire.

You have the dedication to the Dark Side of the Force. For some, this is an automatic BADGUYSEVILOMGSTOPTHEM. But that would, again, be ignoring the changes brought about under Empress Acina and the multitude of Sith Lords who were not sniveling, psychotic murderers (i.e. Lana Beniko, Darth Marr, etc.). The concept of "Light = Good, Dark = Bad" is just overly simplified.

You have the dedication of a people to a history and a culture that spans thousands of years with rulers who have developed a civilization and philosophy that values emotions, as opposed to the Jedi who suppress them. Only one of those keeps a person in touch with their natural personhood; the other seeks to suppress it.
No one mentioned the different side of the force, we are talking solely based on the actions of the faction as a whole. Dark side and light side have no business in this discussion.

Quote:
The Empire is much less "BAD GUYZ" than Pubs like to paint it
This isn't entirely true. No one here has even mentioned the force in the multiple reasons that were given for The Empire's evilness. No, we've proved it by using facts and the actions of the faction as a whole. Now ofc the Empire isn't all bad, but it certainly isn't even close to not being bad.
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