My guild was on our first run through EC HM this evening and ran into problems with the Stormcaller/Firebrand encounter.

We set up as most people do with 2 DPS on Stormcaller to soak the DD debuffs. When DD is casting the tank moves to stand behind them and then moves back to his normal tanking position when they have soaked the debuff. The thing was a few seconds later the turret would switch instantly to the 2 DPS fire electrical discharge killing both and then instantly switch back to the tank. The first time we put it down to a extremely badly timed aggro pull by the DPS but it happened repeatedly over a number of tries. Even when the DPS were only using rage builders to keep aggro as low as possible.

So my question is. Is this a bug or is there a part of the fight mechanics we were missing?

The threat here is very, very fragile because your tanks are swapping. Make sure your dps are dropping their threat at the right times (after big damage drops). I know you've said their doing that but making sure won't hurt.

Also, are you sure that your tank's doing the right rotation for threat?

Just simple questions to ask. Trying to help

There is something going on that makes threat on stormcaller unusual. We did this fight without tank swaps and could not keep threat on stormcaller for the first bit of the fight even though we have not had this issue on any other encounter.

We get around it now by having a melee dps with taunt taunt trade a bit into the fight to help boost up threat. Initially we had all dps completely abstain from hitting him until the first double destruction.

Just some workarounds, but yes there is something weird going on with stormcallers threat, seems like a bug, but whether it's intended or not is unconfirmed.

The threat here is very, very fragile because your tanks are swapping. Make sure your dps are dropping their threat at the right times (after big damage drops). I know you've said their doing that but making sure won't hurt.

 

Also, are you sure that your tank's doing the right rotation for threat?

 

Just simple questions to ask. Trying to help

It's not about the tank swap - due to the way taunt works (it vaults the tank to the top of the threat list plus 30%) the swap is the least of the problems with this fight. The real issue is what was just stated above - the dps are more than likely standing in melee range instead of max distancing themselves from the boss which means it takes a lot less to pull.

Your melee dps is standing too close. 110% threat to pull off tank in melee range. It is a common mistake with the melee on this fight to stand so close, when they can stand at max melee range for his hitbox and go back to the 130% threshhold.

Wait, the distance you're standing relative to the target effects threat? Could you explain this please? I didn't know of this mechanic.

My guild was on our first run through EC HM this evening and ran into problems with the Stormcaller/Firebrand encounter.

 

We set up as most people do with 2 DPS on Stormcaller to soak the DD debuffs. When DD is casting the tank moves to stand behind them and then moves back to his normal tanking position when they have soaked the debuff. The thing was a few seconds later the turret would switch instantly to the 2 DPS fire electrical discharge killing both and then instantly switch back to the tank. The first time we put it down to a extremely badly timed aggro pull by the DPS but it happened repeatedly over a number of tries. Even when the DPS were only using rage builders to keep aggro as low as possible.

 

So my question is. Is this a bug or is there a part of the fight mechanics we were missing?

We had this happen to us what we found is that we need to slow our damage one of the tanks is hiting 80% when stormcaller is casting DD, as a result the probe kitting phase is starting while DD is being cast hence the reason why the probe is landing on the tank tanking stormcrawler. When we slowed our DPS at 85% it seemed to fix the problem.

Your melee dps is standing too close. 110% threat to pull off tank in melee range. It is a common mistake with the melee on this fight to stand so close, when they can stand at max melee range for his hitbox and go back to the 130% threshhold.

Personally I don't remember Bioware ever coming out and saying how their threat system worked so. . . I'm gonna have to say your basing that on you World of Warcraft experience.

Our groups did notice that Stormcaller does SEEM to have an agro drop shortly after DD that can usually be mitigated by a tank taunt, AOE usually since the range is right not to pick up Firebrand or Basic if your doing Storm w/o Swap.

Personally I don't remember Bioware ever coming out and saying how their threat system worked so. . . I'm gonna have to say your basing that on you World of Warcraft experience.

 

Our groups did notice that Stormcaller does SEEM to have an agro drop shortly after DD that can usually be mitigated by a tank taunt, AOE usually since the range is right not to pick up Firebrand or Basic if your doing Storm w/o Swap.

Bioware never came out and said it but the theory crafters on sithwarrior.com did the research and found it is very similar .

Wait, the distance you're standing relative to the target effects threat? Could you explain this please? I didn't know of this mechanic.

Yeah. From what I've read on mmo-mechanics.

To "pull aggro" from the bosses current target:

Inside melee range you need to have a total threat greater than 110% of the bosses current target.

Outside melee range you need to have a total threat greater than 130% of the bosses current target.

However, as the game sees it, the bosses "melee" range is often (nearly always?) smaller than the hit box. So melee players standing outside of the bosses "melee" range but still inside his hit box would also require a total threat greater than 130% of the current bosses target to pull aggro.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?pid=16142#pid16142

There is also information that the way the taunt mechanic works is directly related to this:

If the current highest threat holder is inside melee range, taunting will instantly set your threat to 110% of theirs (the amount required to take aggro at that distance).

If the current highest threat holder is outside melee range, taunting will instantly set your threat to 130% of theirs (the amount required to take aggro at that distance).

This is even the case if the person taunting is the current highest threat holder. So if a tank has the highest threat of 10,000, and taunts inside "melee" range, their threat will instantly become 11,000. If they taunt outside "melee" range, their threat becomes 13,000.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?pid=17246#pid17246

In short, never stack on the boss unless a mechanic specifically requires it. Not even tanks.

We are currently as well on HM Storm/Fire and had the same problem. Our DPS were commando and sage. And everytime Stormcaller was doing the first double destruction blast, the sage got agro short after and both DPS were instant killed. We got it under control with guard on the sage. Than the commando got agro somehow (never ever happend). Now the DPS use the agro reducer when Stormcaller start the double destruction spell. And after this it was no problem anymore. It always only happend on the first time each try. Might because the tank has not enough threat at this time.

Eighter lower the DPS untill the tank got his second taunt in, or reduce the agro with the agro debuff.

The Electric Discharge is not the lightning probe that is on the ground. It is the DD fire from Stormcaller and doing alot damage while double destruction is up (around 20-25k).

Yeah. From what I've read on mmo-mechanics.

 

To "pull aggro" from the bosses current target:

 

Inside melee range you need to have a total threat greater than 110% of the bosses current target.

Outside melee range you need to have a total threat greater than 130% of the bosses current target.

 

However, as the game sees it, the bosses "melee" range is often (nearly always?) smaller than the hit box. So melee players standing outside of the bosses "melee" range but still inside his hit box would also require a total threat greater than 130% of the current bosses target to pull aggro.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?pid=16142#pid16142

 

 

 

There is also information that the way the taunt mechanic works is directly related to this:

 

If the current highest threat holder is inside melee range, taunting will instantly set your threat to 110% of theirs (the amount required to take aggro at that distance).

If the current highest threat holder is outside melee range, taunting will instantly set your threat to 130% of theirs (the amount required to take aggro at that distance).

 

This is even the case if the person taunting is the current highest threat holder. So if a tank has the highest threat of 10,000, and taunts inside "melee" range, their threat will instantly become 11,000. If they taunt outside "melee" range, their threat becomes 13,000.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?pid=17246#pid17246

 

 

In short, never stack on the boss unless a mechanic specifically requires it. Not even tanks.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! Awesome! After I commented on that I went to sithwarrior.com and read up on it. I read the whole thing but was still a little confused on that part. Thank you so much for clarifying. Knowing this mechanic will make fights much, much easier. Once again, thank you.

Our guild was having a similar problem when doing HM EC this past Sunday - when DD goes off, SC immediately targets the dps, resulting in an instant-kill. I imagine there is some type of bug occurring here, similar to that of Soa's aggro bug (where he would lose aggro after casting Mind Trap).

Lots of awesome posts in here though - hoping that this will help us progress on EC on our next attempt Thanks for that info about the range aggro, had no idea.

This is even the case if the person taunting is the current highest threat holder. So if a tank has the highest threat of 10,000, and taunts inside "melee" range, their threat will instantly become 11,000. If they taunt outside "melee" range, their threat becomes 13,000.

Also keep in mind, it looks like the threat boost probably only happens with the single target taunts, not the AoE ones, so the tanks should always use their single target taunt for bosses and swaps.

Another consequence of the taunt mechanics is that the best time for DPS that grabs aggro to dump threat is right after the tank taunts back, not before. That 25% dump isn't going to make the boss switch to someone else, but it will help after the tank's threat leapfrogs yours.

We had this happen to us what we found is that we need to slow our damage one of the tanks is hiting 80% when stormcaller is casting DD, as a result the probe kitting phase is starting while DD is being cast hence the reason why the probe is landing on the tank tanking stormcrawler. When we slowed our DPS at 85% it seemed to fix the problem.

Appearantly we're talking about two different bugs, as I am quoting this guy from page one. This is the problem my guild was having lastnight. Stormcaller would get off a second DD just around the same time they would enter phase 2 and be needing to run for the shield. The result would be, Stormcaller would continue to cast DD, I (being the tank) would position myself behind the DD soakers but a lightning probe would drop on me at the same time. I would still be standing on stormcaller, and we would not have officially entered the kiting phase aka shielding phase, as the bosses hadn't channeled defensive measures, and the shields didn't drop, but that ONE lightning pole WOULD drop right on top of me, which sadly would also be right on top of the 2 DD soakers, and they would die right away. I am sure it is a timing thing in this case, and our DPS either needs to slow down or speed up to get the DD phase casted and over with BEFORE officially entering the defensive measures phase.

I have had this problem when tanking SC

Using AOE taunt everytime during the casting of DD solved it for me.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! Awesome! After I commented on that I went to sithwarrior.com and read up on it. I read the whole thing but was still a little confused on that part. Thank you so much for clarifying. Knowing this mechanic will make fights much, much easier. Once again, thank you.

NP. Some further testing on the Operations Training Dummy suggests it's "melee" range threat threshold is 2.75 meters while it's hit box is 4.0 meters.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?pid=21688#pid21688

It is not clear at this point whether 2.75 meters is a set "melee" range for all bosses in the game mechanics, but it's a place to start for further testing.

It's probably more of a mechanic. Most of the time we see this problem when party members haven't been to this fight before and occasionally pull aggro during the first 10 seconds of the fight and wipe the operation.

For the first 10-15 seconds DPS needs to give the tanks a chance to build some aggro on the bosses. They don't have to hold DPS but at least not start with their heavy damage abilities. You can always try holding dps for a few seconds, though unless you are running story mode I would not recommend it. Another method would be to have the tanks run in on a speeder while everyone else runs on foot. They can still use insta ranged abilities for the few seconds it takes to reach the bosses but the heavy threat attacks won't pull aggro early.

Regardless of how you decide to manage it, Once you hit the 15 second mark then DPS can go all out with little fear of accidentally pulling aggro.

Appearantly we're talking about two different bugs, as I am quoting this guy from page one. This is the problem my guild was having lastnight. Stormcaller would get off a second DD just around the same time they would enter phase 2 and be needing to run for the shield. The result would be, Stormcaller would continue to cast DD, I (being the tank) would position myself behind the DD soakers but a lightning probe would drop on me at the same time. I would still be standing on stormcaller, and we would not have officially entered the kiting phase aka shielding phase, as the bosses hadn't channeled defensive measures, and the shields didn't drop, but that ONE lightning pole WOULD drop right on top of me, which sadly would also be right on top of the 2 DD soakers, and they would die right away. I am sure it is a timing thing in this case, and our DPS either needs to slow down or speed up to get the DD phase casted and over with BEFORE officially entering the defensive measures phase.

This is not a bug. The solution is not to get a second DD. It is completely avoidable.