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GSF on Tulak Hord is dead!


Verain's Avatar


Verain
07.29.2020 , 06:37 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ttoilleekul View Post
Well, you're not wrong.
Yea he is, and so are you.

Quote:
Whatever justification people make for always flying in powerful premades, the fact is it kills the interest from newbies and kills the queue for average pilots.
Frequently it makes everyone show up for the good games at whatever time the premade flies at.

Since this game was conceived- and really, since a couple decades before- I've been hearing that "X kills the queues". In GSF, that's "teams that can beat my team" or "teams that can beat just me alone". But the people claiming this never have any proof, and they are only ever speaking for themselves, while claiming to speak for everyone. Really, they aren't interested in figuring out what makes more or less queues, they just want something that they can argue against teams that can beat them.

Players like you have two goals when you repeat these kinds of made up facts.

1- Discourage premades from grouping
2- Encourage devs to ban premades

Both of these are your only goals. I hear people saying how there are no games and the queues are dead, in /gsf, while two games are going, and I'm in one. Unlike you, and all the other players just like you, I have stuck around and spammed /who on some nights when I know no premades are on. Guess what? Queues die at about the same time, often a bit earlier, when no premades are playing. So not only do premades not "kill queues", the queues aren't even dead.

I used to assume players like you were projecting your desire to not be beaten onto other players, and assuming everyone thought the same way you do. Now I'm convinced it's just a power play to try to demoralize actual teams from grouping, and to try to trick the devs into removing your competition by any means possible.

Quote:
I'm happy to report that on Darth Malgus we have more or less stamped out the dominant premade mentality, and if there is one, we can readily make a counter group for it.
If the DM groups stopped grouping, I think I'd know. And you claim that your way to beat groups is by grouping. That part, at least, is correct.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Shariva's Avatar


Shariva
07.30.2020 , 12:02 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Frequently it makes everyone show up for the good games at whatever time the premade flies at.
Really.... You have any proof to substantiate your claim that people like to be spawn camped and/or being stomped into nothing?

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Since this game was conceived- and really, since a couple decades before- I've been hearing that "X kills the queues". In GSF, that's "teams that can beat my team" or "teams that can beat just me alone". But the people claiming this never have any proof, and they are only ever speaking for themselves, while claiming to speak for everyone. Really, they aren't interested in figuring out what makes more or less queues, they just want something that they can argue against teams that can beat them.
Again I say really.... You really think that a team of randomly thrown together players can compete with a pre-made group that has been flying together for a year? Because when I fly a battle, go after a gunship and have two scouts and two strike fighters on my tail within 5 seconds, it means I'm up against a pre-made. That type of coordination is never found in a randomly thrown together group.
But you seem to think pre-mades are not that good. That over time team cooperation doesn't improve and that pre-made teams are just randomly thrown together bunch of players. It would seem you just want to argue why pre-mades are not bad and I am sorely tempted to believe you are in one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Players like you have two goals when you repeat these kinds of made up facts.

1- Discourage premades from grouping
2- Encourage devs to ban premades
In both these statements you are blatantly wrong. People are not discouraging pre-made groups. People are not encouraging the developers from banishing pre-made groups. These are two, by you, made up facts. People are arguing that pre-made groups should not be matched against a randomly thrown together group. That is what people like myself are arguing for. We are arguing that the match making for GSF is completely botched and that Bioware should take action on it. And because the match making is incredible flunky, the pre-made groups are enabled to do the spawn camping. And the result is that, especially new, pilots quit flying all together.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Both of these are your only goals. I hear people saying how there are no games and the queues are dead, in /gsf, while two games are going, and I'm in one. Unlike you, and all the other players just like you, I have stuck around and spammed /who on some nights when I know no premades are on. Guess what? Queues die at about the same time, often a bit earlier, when no premades are playing. So not only do premades not "kill queues", the queues aren't even dead.
I'm, again, seeing a lot of claims without any regard to evidence. Because I see people leaving the group when they get spawn camped or stomped into nothing. In that respect, pre-mades do kill the game. But it appears to me that that is the side you do not wish to see. After five battles of being stomped into nothing, I don't want to fly anymore either. I go do something else. And a lot of starting pilots give up long before that. Again, I very rarely see a bunch of loners do this.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
I used to assume players like you were projecting your desire to not be beaten onto other players, and assuming everyone thought the same way you do. Now I'm convinced it's just a power play to try to demoralize actual teams from grouping, and to try to trick the devs into removing your competition by any means possible.
Wow..... just wow....
The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart.
All are intertwined. The crystal, the blade, the Jedi. You are one.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
07.30.2020 , 12:48 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Yea he is, and so are you.



Frequently it makes everyone show up for the good games at whatever time the premade flies at.

Since this game was conceived- and really, since a couple decades before- I've been hearing that "X kills the queues". In GSF, that's "teams that can beat my team" or "teams that can beat just me alone". But the people claiming this never have any proof, and they are only ever speaking for themselves, while claiming to speak for everyone. Really, they aren't interested in figuring out what makes more or less queues, they just want something that they can argue against teams that can beat them.

Players like you have two goals when you repeat these kinds of made up facts.

1- Discourage premades from grouping
2- Encourage devs to ban premades

Both of these are your only goals. I hear people saying how there are no games and the queues are dead, in /gsf, while two games are going, and I'm in one. Unlike you, and all the other players just like you, I have stuck around and spammed /who on some nights when I know no premades are on. Guess what? Queues die at about the same time, often a bit earlier, when no premades are playing. So not only do premades not "kill queues", the queues aren't even dead.

I used to assume players like you were projecting your desire to not be beaten onto other players, and assuming everyone thought the same way you do. Now I'm convinced it's just a power play to try to demoralize actual teams from grouping, and to try to trick the devs into removing your competition by any means possible.



If the DM groups stopped grouping, I think I'd know. And you claim that your way to beat groups is by grouping. That part, at least, is correct.
That's one heck of a lot of assumptions you've made there. But I'm not going to argue with you because ive had this arguement so many times it gets old. Its not like youre goign to agree with me or vice versa. But I will, say, when was the last time you flew on DM? I welcome you to come over, see what's really going on. Come solo if youre brave enough.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
07.30.2020 , 07:54 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Shariva View Post
Really.... You have any proof to substantiate your claim that people like to be spawn camped and/or being stomped into nothing?
He didn't say that people like to be spawn camped or even that he likes to spawn camp people. Skilled pilots like competitive challenging games. Stomping into oblivion those players who still haven't figured out which end of the ship is supposed to be pointing forward is not all that fun. I'm a person attracted to premades. If I hear there's a premade stomping people in GSF, I'm more inclined to queue. Even if I don't join one myself. Sure, I might be thrown in with a bunch of unskilled players and get stomped, but at least it will be interesting.

Quote:
Again I say really.... You really think that a team of randomly thrown together players can compete with a pre-made group that has been flying together for a year? Because when I fly a battle, go after a gunship and have two scouts and two strike fighters on my tail within 5 seconds, it means I'm up against a pre-made. That type of coordination is never found in a randomly thrown together group.
But you seem to think pre-mades are not that good. That over time team cooperation doesn't improve and that pre-made teams are just randomly thrown together bunch of players. It would seem you just want to argue why pre-mades are not bad and I am sorely tempted to believe you are in one.
It depends on the pool of players. If the matchmaker, which is profoundly stupid when it comes to balancing teams, is given enough good players to work with, then yeah, random aces vs. premade aces can be competitive. It won't normally get them to stop talking about whatever collectible card game they've been playing lately or whatever on voicechat though (premade voicechat coordination, if you ever get into a premade's voicechat, turns out to be largely mythical). It's not force precognition or voicechat that's responsible for "coordination." It's watching the minimap, watching the messages on screen, and knowing what the best tactics are that allow the really good players to be in the right place at the right time for maximum effect. A really good player will see the little red triangle that's your ship change heading toward an undefended satellite when you only spawned 2 seconds ago, and they'll boost across the map to meet you there and kill you while you're trying to line up on a turret. It's not magic, it's the minimap.

Verain's certainty on this comes from experience. He has seen premades lose to non-premade teams. Good players are good players, whether they're in a premade or not. The primary aim of the premade is to get in a match faster. The matchmaker LOOOOVES premades. So if you like GSF and don't want to wait forever for a match, the best thing to do is group up and queue. This is the primary factor driving premades. Trying to get the queue to pop.

There's not skill requirement or upgrade requirement to form a group. You can do it with 0 hours, 0 minutes, and 0 seconds of GSF playtime. It doesn't help people fly better, it doesn't make the matchmaker any less stupid than it is with a purely random queue, but it does make the matchmaker create matches in less time.

Quote:
In both these statements you are blatantly wrong. People are not discouraging pre-made groups. People are not encouraging the developers from banishing pre-made groups. These are two, by you, made up facts. People are arguing that pre-made groups should not be matched against a randomly thrown together group. That is what people like myself are arguing for. We are arguing that the match making for GSF is completely botched and that Bioware should take action on it. And because the match making is incredible flunky, the pre-made groups are enabled to do the spawn camping. And the result is that, especially new, pilots quit flying all together.
You're sorta part right, and Verain's sorta part right on this. "I don't wanna fly against premades because I don't like losing, and I think premades are always going to kick my butt," is the driving factor behind your complaints. The problem is that at a high enough skill level ONE player can turn a match into a spawn-camped stomp fest. It's harder than it used to be, because ship balance is so improved, but it happens. What Verain wasn't saying, because he's said it so many times that I suspect that he's tired of saying it, is that with the player population of SWTOR, the level of GSF participation, and the low quality of the matchmaker, the sort of unbalanced matches that no one really likes are inevitable. The matchmaker needs the random queued people and the group queued people to make matches in a reasonable amount of time. Taking the premades out just slows things down, or even completely stops the queue for everyone.

In general, the premades try to coordinate so they can fly against other premades. It greatly increases the chances of both interesting games, and fast queue pops. Of course, the matchmaker will still be stupid sometimes and create two matches of grouped skilled players vs. ungrouped people in starter ships, but at least there's a chance of premade vs premade if you fly GSF by appointment. If really top end players just stopped flying as premades, it would probably increase the number of lopsided matches. The matchmaker doesn't do better if you split the groups up, it just goes slower. Premades on the other hand, say, "Ok, this is stupid. Why don't you three swap faction, and requeue. We'll drop queue until you do. Maybe we can get a decent match," with more frequency than you probably imagine they do.

Really the only known effective way of improving the matchmaking in GSF is increasing the number of premades. It works like this:
Lopsided matches are happening. Someone gets on a chat channel, probably /gsf in game, or a GSF Discord channel, and asks if anyone wants to shuffle around a bit for more balanced games. People shuffle around. If you're lucky, more balanced games result. One of the best ways to do it is to communicate and try to get less skilled players grouped with the more skilled players. That way no matter how badly the matchmaker screws up there's a reasonable chance of an at least partly balanced game. Those cranky evil ace premade pilots actually turn out to be generally pretty friendly and enthusiastic about grouping up with people. Even if those people are complete strangers that have never played GSF before. They can even facilitate it because they know who the deadly pilots are, and they're used to using communication tools to sort out better groupings. The only caveat about making that happen though, is that you have to ask them to do it. Their characters might have force telepathy, but they don't. They don't know that you'd like to group up to help make more even and faster popping matches unless you tell them.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Shariva's Avatar


Shariva
07.31.2020 , 10:47 AM | #15
I'm not gonna reply to the entire post, Ramalina, as I think you have made some valid points. But I will reply to the following bit:
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
You're sorta part right, and Verain's sorta part right on this. "I don't wanna fly against premades because I don't like losing, and I think premades are always going to kick my butt," is the driving factor behind your complaints.
Here I am going to disagree with you. I never said I don't want to loose. I said I want to have fun flying. Winning or loosing; as long as it is a close match, I'm having fun. I don't need, nor want to be on the top of table regarding kills, assists or whatever. I want to have fun. And close matches are fun for me. Heck, going up against two or three ships is fun as well. I'm getting pretty good at circling an object and using all kinds of cover to break missile-lock.
However, being systematically spawn camped for five matches in a row is not fun. I can take that a few times, but after that, it is enough.

I still am not against pre-made groups, but let them fly against other pre-made groups. Basically, improve the match maker so pre-mades fly against pre-mades and randoms fly against randoms. The game has the logic to detect if you're not in an ops group. So it is possible to expand on that technique to make it so it can detect if you're in a group or not. This makes the match maker at least more intelligent then now.
The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart.
All are intertwined. The crystal, the blade, the Jedi. You are one.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
07.31.2020 , 11:49 PM | #16
The thing is, the GSF matchmaker already detects groups. It prioritizes putting groups in games over single players. As a solo queued person you can get completely skipped for multiple matches in a row, where a player of comparable skill who is grouped in the same queue at the same time will get into multiple games in a row. It's known, it's tested. It's a big part of why the best players are so set on being in a group as often as possible.

The way you get good at GSF is by playing a lot, presumably because you like playing GSF. If you like to play GSF, you want to play GSF, not dance on a mission kiosk on Fleet for hours at a time. Once that sort of player discovers that queuing as a group can nearly double their chances of getting into the games that are happening, they're going to want to group up to queue for GSF. Depending on how populated the GSF queue is, grouping can be the difference between getting 3 or 4 games in an evening as part of a group vs. getting 1 or even 0 games if queued solo. In the current system for GSF, ideally everyone should be grouping for GSF.

Unfortunately, recoding the matchmaker would require a lot of time, a lot of expertise, and in legacy code that may not be clean or well documented possibly a lot of headaches. The payroll to fix it would be significant, the gain in income would be microscopic. We all wish the matchmaker was as smart as a five year old picking teams for a game on the playground, but realistically that's never going to happen.

I'd argue that some of the best GSF that has ever been played was on the closed PTS before the big GSF balance patch. Getting matches was a difficult scheduling feat, and communications were required to make matches happen. As a group of players, it was definitely possible to do much better than the matchmaker when it came to balancing teams. If enough players are communicating and grouping cleverly, it is possible to FORCE the matchmaker to create balanced teams most of the time. You need to have about, at a guess, 70% to 80% of the players queued as well planned groups in order to overcome the flaws of the matchmaker. A lower percentage of players well grouped still helps, but it seems like the matchmaker has a special talent for finding poor matchups. Or maybe it just has really bad luck with RNG. Forcing good matches has also been seen on live servers during community GSF special events. With enough groups to make 4 to 6 GSF games queued at the same time, it's possible to overwhelm the matchmaker's ability to make bad matches, provided all of those groups are relatively even in skill.

I know that there are some guild groups that fly more for the sake of things like conquest etc. rather than because they like GSF. The goal is to get in, get points, get out, and do it fast. For them, spawncamping is possibly a desired outcome, because it means less time playing GSF per unit of loot. If it's enthusiastic GSF players though, it's different. Go ahead and message them in game and ask if they'd be willing to group up in a way to improve balance. For making the queue pop, it doesn't matter who you're grouped with. So if there are enough newer players willing to group up, then for an ace there's very little downside to splitting into new and more balanced groups. More players, more groups, more matches add up to more fun for them in the long run. Maybe some new friends in game too. You never know if asking to group up will work, but it's pretty much always worth trying. Sure they might say no, but if they say yes the chances of more games and better games greatly increases. Sometimes being grouped even helps if you're losing, especially if you have some kind of voice chat. Talking, joking, being a team, while losing together is usually a lot more fun than solo queuing and losing by yourself.

It's the one situation where right now I can be sure that it's a good thing to be more social. Be as social as possible while queuing for GSF. Sometimes it works, and it can be a lot of fun when it does.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
08.01.2020 , 08:04 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
The thing is, the GSF matchmaker already detects groups. It prioritizes putting groups in games over single players. As a solo queued person you can get completely skipped for multiple matches in a row, where a player of comparable skill who is grouped in the same queue at the same time will get into multiple games in a row. It's known, it's tested. It's a big part of why the best players are so set on being in a group as often as possible.

The way you get good at GSF is by playing a lot, presumably because you like playing GSF. If you like to play GSF, you want to play GSF, not dance on a mission kiosk on Fleet for hours at a time. Once that sort of player discovers that queuing as a group can nearly double their chances of getting into the games that are happening, they're going to want to group up to queue for GSF. Depending on how populated the GSF queue is, grouping can be the difference between getting 3 or 4 games in an evening as part of a group vs. getting 1 or even 0 games if queued solo. In the current system for GSF, ideally everyone should be grouping for GSF.

Unfortunately, recoding the matchmaker would require a lot of time, a lot of expertise, and in legacy code that may not be clean or well documented possibly a lot of headaches. The payroll to fix it would be significant, the gain in income would be microscopic. We all wish the matchmaker was as smart as a five year old picking teams for a game on the playground, but realistically that's never going to happen.

I'd argue that some of the best GSF that has ever been played was on the closed PTS before the big GSF balance patch. Getting matches was a difficult scheduling feat, and communications were required to make matches happen. As a group of players, it was definitely possible to do much better than the matchmaker when it came to balancing teams. If enough players are communicating and grouping cleverly, it is possible to FORCE the matchmaker to create balanced teams most of the time. You need to have about, at a guess, 70% to 80% of the players queued as well planned groups in order to overcome the flaws of the matchmaker. A lower percentage of players well grouped still helps, but it seems like the matchmaker has a special talent for finding poor matchups. Or maybe it just has really bad luck with RNG. Forcing good matches has also been seen on live servers during community GSF special events. With enough groups to make 4 to 6 GSF games queued at the same time, it's possible to overwhelm the matchmaker's ability to make bad matches, provided all of those groups are relatively even in skill.

I know that there are some guild groups that fly more for the sake of things like conquest etc. rather than because they like GSF. The goal is to get in, get points, get out, and do it fast. For them, spawncamping is possibly a desired outcome, because it means less time playing GSF per unit of loot. If it's enthusiastic GSF players though, it's different. Go ahead and message them in game and ask if they'd be willing to group up in a way to improve balance. For making the queue pop, it doesn't matter who you're grouped with. So if there are enough newer players willing to group up, then for an ace there's very little downside to splitting into new and more balanced groups. More players, more groups, more matches add up to more fun for them in the long run. Maybe some new friends in game too. You never know if asking to group up will work, but it's pretty much always worth trying. Sure they might say no, but if they say yes the chances of more games and better games greatly increases. Sometimes being grouped even helps if you're losing, especially if you have some kind of voice chat. Talking, joking, being a team, while losing together is usually a lot more fun than solo queuing and losing by yourself.

It's the one situation where right now I can be sure that it's a good thing to be more social. Be as social as possible while queuing for GSF. Sometimes it works, and it can be a lot of fun when it does.
Actually I believe the Matchmaker no longer Prioritizes Groups over solo players any longer. In the past it used to, however from my experience since 6.0 I've discovered I never get skipped as a solo player (or at least extremely rarely), but I'm consistently being skipped if I'm in a group of 2, 3, or 4.
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