Hey Bioware Dev team,

 

While I know a response to be unlikely, I find that after a couple of weeks of endgame tanking, I need to voice my questions as my frustration continues to grow:

 

First, let me preface this by saying that, to me, the Juggernaut is an immensely fun class to play, and there is no other I've played so far that I'd rather main as. I love their whole 'I'm an unstoppable force, get out of my way or perish!' style - the pure embodiment of everything a 'Juggernaut' should be.

 

That being said, there are a few tanking 'ideologies' in this game that I find to be cumbersome and messy, and was wondering what the Devs thought about them - if everything is functioning as intended, if you hadn't considered it, or if you agree and are looking to make changes.

 

My biggest peeve is with (no surprise here) AoE tanking. Now, I'm not going to even argue the point that we lack the tools to get the job done, it's redundant. I'm sure everyone on this board knows about them and has screamed and raged about them plenty of times before.

 

What I DID want to argue was how the trash mobs are set up in the FPs and OPs I've done so far - mainly, spread out and blaster firing away at everyone with no way for me, as a Jugg tank, to keep sufficient threat on them all.

 

The argument can be made that targets should be set, and a kill order set up, but that still doesn't fix the problem! Especially considering the mobs NOT getting attacked are likely to be drawn to healers, and the second I stop attacking the kill target to pick up one of these stray enemies (across the room, as it seems to be the case most of the time), I lose threat on it. Now, with charge on cooldown and what little rage I had pooled before spent on getting a few hits on the errant enemy, I'm forced to run back to the original creature and somehow get threat back with no taunt/charge/rage. If this wasn't bad enough... the third mob (he on the opposite side of the platform to the original peeler) has just peeled away and gone to the healers also.

 

This process seems to repeat itself depending on the amount of enemies there are and the end effect is me, a Robocop looking bad***** running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, slapping an enemy on the wrist or shouting at it like a Kardashian and continuing to run around in circles.

 

It's messy, it's cumbersome and most of all, it isn't fun. When I use all my abilities as best as I can and still fail as a tank (by keeping threat), I feel like a failure - a feeling I haven't had in a long while in playing any game, and I'm aware that by admitting it, I'm opening myself up to ridicule, but so be it.

 

I don't think the answer to this problem is to have the DPS sit around, twiddling their thumbs either. That's another boring and fail method if I've ever heard one. Especially as DPS, I can fully understand them wanting to unleash the full power of the Force, or Explosions on their enemies - standing around and watching Robosith slapping enemies to no apparent effect was not what they expected to be doing either when they read their class's flavour text, I'd imagine.

 

I don't intend to QQ without throwing in my own two-bob though, as is most cases with - and I'm not going to deny what the basis of this post is - QQing.

 

Would an AoE, minute cooldown Force Pull go against the game's philosophy? It would help immensely what trying to tank a group of ranged adds and allow us to actually hit all our targets with our short ranged smash for some burst threat. It would also help some with our apparent mobility issues in PvP that was mentioned not long ago on the Dev tracker (and come with it's own risk of pulling ppl to you you may not want there )

 

The other change I think needs to be made is one of two things - either allowing sweeping slash to generate rage, instead of spend it, so we can also throw in a few heavy hitting abilities while aoe tanking on a main target and not lose on threat to healers with the non-targets, or, keep sweeping slash as is and have it generate the same amount of threat as Backhand, possibly through a talent like Dark Blood.

 

As I said, I don't mean to QQ, but I'd love to get some feedback - of any kind really - on this issue, and if (and I don't mean to sound rude or sarcastic when I say this) you are all fine with us running around and having a general hard time at holding threat on multiple enemies?

 

I understand how busy you all are, but I know I'm not the only Jugg out there having or noticing these issues, so any response you deem necessary would be greatly appreciated!

I've been noticing that problem quite a bit, as well. It seems a huge majority of trash mobs are ranged, and we have no way to kite them. God knows that doesn't stop me from trying, which usually equals out to backing away, and the mob staying in the same spot. Meanwhile, like you said, the remaining ones are pewpewing at healers and dps who are unable to focus fire. And AOE silence would be nice, despite the fact that "silence" is kind of a misnomer, since ranged mobs are using blasters and whatnot most often, rather than shooting lightning bolts from their fingertips.

 

Anyway, yah, +1 to this post. I wrote another one addressing the problem, as I see it, of inadequate rage generation and total capacity. It kind of goes hand in hand with this.

I'd thought of a 30m aoe temporary blaster 'disable', like an EMP or something, but it seemed to 'techy' and something more along the lines of what a Powertech would have, and not a Sith Lord

No offence but I disagree with both of your solutions, more so with the sweeping slash part. I don't really want this to become just another faceroll aoe tanking game.

 

Yes there are issues with aoe tanking, however the issues are not in flashpoints. If you are having trouble in flashpoints you really shouldn't even attempt operations.

 

 

My best tips to you is to open up with saber throw, and then jump at another target that is surrounded by 2 other targets you can easily reach with your smash. And just have dps always assist you when doing damage. Also use your stuns, that's what they're there for. If I see a mob running for the healer, i normally taunt it. After the taunt is off i buy myself time with force choke/backhand/force push/force jump, until taunt is back up again. By that time you should have killed w.e mob you were on and be able to focus your attention on this stray mob.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AllanGand

Backhand, as our main threat causing ability, is always used on the main kill target, otherwise I WILL lose threat on it - if you're not having that problem, you don't have competent DPS, and I dunno if I should envy or pity you.

 

Saber throw will get outthreatted by every healer from the second heal, then as you go and heroically stun/taunt or whatever it, you've already lost threat on the pack you'd opened up on with your Smash.

 

And all of this, of course, assumes you've encountered a pack of monsters that have a group melee enemies and only one ranged.

 

What of those packs that are mostly, or all ranged? Smash becomes useless, as does taunt. Mind you, as you've gone to figure that out, you've lost aggro on the melee mobs that you left in the mean time.

 

It's a principal and QoL issue, not a faceroll one. When I use all my best abilities at the right times (and assuming an all melee pack) and I'm still losing threat to DPS... something is seriously wrong.

 

When I mark targets, and can't outthreat DPS on the kill target because my rage and CDs are being spent on chasing down the ones healers aggro, that's an issue.

 

I understand the game not being faceroll, but making threat the only thing stopping that from being the case is stupid. Positioning, CD management, damage intake, interrupts, situational abilities - these are the things that should challenge the tank, and while I have no issue with threat being one of them, I don't want to feel like Franky Muniz going up against Mohamad Ali every time I engage an enemy.

 

I want to step in that ring as Smokin' Joe.

 

P.S Even if sweeping slash gets changed the way I'd like it to, it hardly becomes faceroll - how often when you tank packs are they all nicely waiting to die in front of you? Flanking is a favourite technique of theirs.

Edited January 12, 2012 by MrJoe

I'd thought of a 30m aoe temporary blaster 'disable', like an EMP or something, but it seemed to 'techy' and something more along the lines of what a Powertech would have, and not a Sith Lord

 

Pretty sure Paralyzing Scream works like this. Causes AoE attack disable that breaks on damage and lasts for a few seconds if I remember correctly.

What I mean by 'Blaster disable' is that their blasters stop working, so they'll forego them and run at you to smack you in the face - thereby grouping them up and allowing for better aoe management.

 

The ability you're talking about has a rather short range, and when it lands, does disable them in fear that breaks on damage, but roots them on the spot. Not much use in the situations I'm referring to

What I mean by 'Blaster disable' is that their blasters stop working, so they'll forego them and run at you to smack you in the face - thereby grouping them up and allowing for better aoe management.

 

As much as I hate to admit this, what about borrowing something from another game most of us have played: incorporating a disarm mechanic into Saber Throw and bouncing to an additional target or two? It doesn't have to do a truckload of damage... just enough to frontload some hate and make the right side of the mob pack come to the left, or vice versa.

Hey guys am playing a jugg tank to and have experienced a lot of these problems.

 

Personally i think the only solution is to make all or most of the jugg ability's generate threat it wouldn't effect anything else in the game other than pve once you pick jugg as your advance class threat gets added to you ability's done. And this wont effect marauders then either.

 

Dps tanking does not work on any level it has been used on other games and failed and is letting this down to. I cant see how tank spec i am suppose to out dps full dmg spec bh's snipers and so on when my dmg is not even half of how much they put out we have one ability that generates a high amount of threat that is on a huge cool down and single target. As for aoe sweeping slash dumps way to much rage and the damage is useless against heavy raid dps/healers i always guard one of the healers to drop there threat a bit. but after a bit of sweeping slash spam in aoe situations i find myself rage starved aoe taunt will bring them back then you get strays it just ends up a stressful mess and there is a huge sigh of relief when we have finished trash.

 

I dont want to seem like im qqing or raging i really enjoyed the leveling experience/story but now i have reached the point were my class is suppose to open up i find myself wishing i have leveled something else that is less stressful to play in a group situation. i have played countless mmo's and have played all roles at one time or another tanking being my favored. would really love some kind of feedback.

 

Thanks Dats.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Datsun

hm u could guard ur healer or strongest dps to not overaggro too fast, but i get ur point. we need something to handle those spread out grps, it think single target thread is fine though.

ever thought about using enrage before you engage? it gives you the basic rage to get your threat going on the main target and gives you more time to aggro the other groups i have also seen that when you are near a gunslinging mob he'll switch to a training sword and go melee and won't switch unless someone at ranges agro's him. I haven't done any research on it futher in FP or even OP i'm only lvl 41 but that seems to be the case for me

Don't get me wrong, single target threat I am mostly fine (unless I get knocked back or the dps has a good string of crits), the only problem is when I have to switch targets.

 

Notice in my original thread, I never complain about single target threat, even though I know it is abnormally close for an MMO - it's challenging to hold threat and a little fun in that my rotation actually matters.

 

Another easy fix to this problem is to re-work guard to give a portion of a threat the target generates to the tank.

I agree with the OP. Some groups have 2-3 ranged, all standing at a distance and spread out. You can guard the healer, but that doesn't mask all threat, any taunt is temporary and the bottom line is that you must damage each and every non-CC'd mob to maintain Agro. There either needs to be some way to make the ranged mobs close the distance or some ranged threat generation. Maybe sub the saber throw cooldown for a saber throw immunity? Make it high-threat and apply a saber-throw immunity on that mob for 15 seconds? That way, it won't be overpowered for pvp, it won't do too much damage and you won't be able to hold agro with saber throw alone. A ranged dpser will still have the ability to pull the mob and you should have the ability to overcome healing agro against ranged mobs. It would still be some work to tab-target ranged and throw, but you won't be futively running around (like a chicken with its head cut off, as the OP so adequately described it). It also wouldn't give your group the ability to just burn down everything with AOE. If it temporarily silenced them (disrupted their ranged attack) that would be perfect, but anything to be able to tank the main target and occasionally get a ranged mobs attention would be great. Taunt just won't cut it, as it is temporary and you need to follow up with damage, which takes too much attention from the main mob.

Thanks, Crusty

As much as I hate to admit this, what about borrowing something from another game most of us have played: incorporating a disarm mechanic into Saber Throw and bouncing to an additional target or two? It doesn't have to do a truckload of damage... just enough to frontload some hate and make the right side of the mob pack come to the left, or vice versa.

 

and make it bounce from 3 targets while lowering the damage output% like a 100, 75, 50% by the time it hits it's last target? i love my jugg tanking, im just tired of not getting any love.

yea i think the jugg just needs a few tweaks for tanking one of these tweaks needs to be with smash it takes way to long to cast and does the damage where it was activated so if im chasing a couple melee mobs and im right beside them and i smash when the damage triggers it is where i was when i activated it and hits nothing. i am running right beside them even tho the graphic effect hits the mobs it does no damage. if smash damage at least triggered when u hit the ground instead of as soon as u press the button that would be a big help

The whole point of our tanking stle is not to AoE tank. We are better outfitted for single targets/Boss fights.

 

FP are structured in a way that you only need to tank 1-2 Elites and the rest are normally strongs, normals or weaks. Your DPS should be concentrating on burning those ones down first while you hold the elites. The strongs/normals/weaks won't be enough to hurt your dps that much and as a Jugg tank, you should be able to hold two elites with no problems.

 

My understanding is that AoE tanking is best done by Powertechs/Republic equivalant while Sith Assasins and Jedi Shadows are in the middle for single/aoe.

 

I could be wrong in the play styles a bit as I haven't played an Assasin or Powertech but I do have a level 50 Jugg who tanks and I normall just concentrate on the elites.

 

My guild and I learnt early on that not everything needs to be tanked so don't bother. Your job is to hold on to the hardest hitting mobs while the rest kill the easy ones on their own.

YES.

I strongly agree with the OP! Good post.

 

I understand we are the "single target" tanks, and thats fine. But I should still be able to hold aggro on one linked group of mobs. That is my job. Mobs are way too spread out and stay that way.

 

An AoE force pull would be amazing, altho there might be minor balance issues in pvp. But on a 1 min cooldown I dont really see it causing a big problem in pvp and pulling multiple pvp people to you in AE could really get you dead quick anyway.

 

Extra threat generation on Sweeping Slash would not be overpowered at ALL and would also really help imo. You can get a small group lined up to be hit by it, but there are always 1 or 2 mobs outside the pack that you will have to grab with taunt or whatever too. The fact that using sweeping slash repeatedly burns so much rage would really prevent this change from making it "easymode" AE tanking.

 

In any case, something really should be done about this. Single target being our strength is fine, but we need the tools to keep aggro on a single group of mobs when they are all spread out (like they always are!)

Edited January 12, 2012 by Subparhero

Force push outlier toward grouped mobs? Then charge and smash. Worked so far while leveling, cooldown issue though.

From what I have seen, all of the other tanks have better AoE and single target threat than us. All of the "excuses" people come up with as to why we are OK are complete garbage. It's not because its overly challenging, its that its completely frustrating.

 

A major issue is the issue with ability lag caused by defense. This can have a huge effect even on single target threat. Many times while tanking small packs of mobs I have smashed my revenge button for a good 5 seconds, half completing the animation, before the ability actually fires. 0 threat for that amount of time and your DPS is basically guaranteed to pull.

 

Other things that could be done to help:

We need 1 or 2 more of our abilities to be high threat. Would be great if of both Crushing Blow and either Sundering Assault or Force Scream were high threat. Would be completely amazing if Saber Throw was included in that list.

Increase damage on Sweeping Slash

Increase threat generation for Soresu form another 10-25% depending on other buffs.

 

I don't think even if ALL of these suggestions were implemented, it would make us faceroll tanks but it would sure increase enjoyment and lower stress.

As much as I hate to admit this, what about borrowing something from another game most of us have played: incorporating a disarm mechanic into Saber Throw and bouncing to an additional target or two? It doesn't have to do a truckload of damage... just enough to frontload some hate and make the right side of the mob pack come to the left, or vice versa.

 

I do play a jugg tank, but I do not theory craft much or anything. I do see that tanking ranged enemy groups is nigh on impossible. I don't know if we are intended to have our group handle some of the adds, unlike in other games where the group cannot and should not handle any adds (because they would die too quick).

 

Regardless, I love the thought of throwing my saber at the enemies and disarming their blaster. Seems like a very sith thing to do. Or, alternatively, force grabbing their blaster right out of their hand! This would at least give us a means to get a ranged enemy over to us. I have no idea if this stuff could fit into the game, I just think it sounds cool

 

I don't know about you, but Force Push is really difficult to use right. I have to run over to the enemy, push it to the group, and hope the group is just the right distance from the enemy to have the pushed enemy land within melee of the group. This is a very difficult tactic to employ due to distance, objects in the way, very time consuming. It seems like we should have something else to handle the ranged enemies off to the side.

 

All that being said, I roll with two Sorcerer's in my group on most runs, so we have decided to just use that whirlwind CC most of the time to control adds because without it, I spend more time running in circles than hitting anything, and that just looks weak and silly, not to mention I feel like a failure. I don't know if all dps classes have something similar, and perhaps that is how pulls are supposed to be setup, with a heavy emphasis on CC instead of the tank controlling the adds? I don't think I could tank properly without them.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Fellthar

AOE tanking isn't really an issue, there arn't that many mobs per pull that actually need to be tanked, and by the time the ones that don't need to be tanked are downed you should have good agro on the ones that do.

 

This process seems to repeat itself depending on the amount of enemies there are and the end effect is me, a Robocop looking bad***** running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, slapping an enemy on the wrist or shouting at it like a Kardashian and continuing to run around in circles.

 

It's messy, it's cumbersome and most of all, it isn't fun. When I use all my abilities as best as I can and still fail as a tank (by keeping threat), I feel like a failure - a feeling I haven't had in a long while in playing any game, and I'm aware that by admitting it, I'm opening myself up to ridicule, but so be it.

 

Worst tanking experience I can remember in roughly 8-9 years of playing MMOs: trying to tank the 4-boss fight in Mandalorian Raiders FP before you were able to CC them. I found myself apologizing to my group (thankfully guildies and not a PUG) for being a Jugg. Only reason we got past them was because our healer rocked and my dps was a bit over-leveled for the FP (even though that was adding to my aggro problems).

 

 

Would an AoE, minute cooldown Force Pull go against the game's philosophy? It would help immensely what trying to tank a group of ranged adds and allow us to actually hit all our targets with our short ranged smash for some burst threat. It would also help some with our apparent mobility issues in PvP that was mentioned not long ago on the Dev tracker (and come with it's own risk of pulling ppl to you you may not want there )

 

 

I understand entirely where you're coming from, I've had the same frustration, but honestly, with the addition of an AoE pull, with our existing AoE snare, sounds broken as hell from a PvP standpoint, even with a 1 min+ cd. You could wipe out half an opposing team by saying "hey guys, blow all your aoe right where i'm standing in about 2 seconds."

Edited January 12, 2012 by Okolo

Worst tanking experience I can remember in roughly 8-9 years of playing MMOs: trying to tank the 4-boss fight in Mandalorian Raiders FP before you were able to CC them. I found myself apologizing to my group (thankfully guildies and not a PUG) for being a Jugg. Only reason we got past them was because our healer rocked and my dps was a bit over-leveled for the FP (even though that was adding to my aggro problems).

 

 

 

 

 

I understand entirely where you're coming from, I've had the same frustration, but honestly, with the addition of an AoE pull, with our existing AoE snare, sounds broken as hell from a PvP standpoint, even with a 1 min+ cd. You could wipe out half an opposing team by saying "hey guys, blow all your aoe right where i'm standing in about 2 seconds."

 

I doubt they would ever let an aoe pull like that function in pvp. It has value for pve, but in pvp it would have to do something different, sort of like how taunt functions differently in pvp, except this would actually need to make it weaker in pvp.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Fellthar

The whole point of our tanking stle is not to AoE tank. We are better outfitted for single targets/Boss fights.

 

FP are structured in a way that you only need to tank 1-2 Elites and the rest are normally strongs, normals or weaks. Your DPS should be concentrating on burning those ones down first while you hold the elites. The strongs/normals/weaks won't be enough to hurt your dps that much and as a Jugg tank, you should be able to hold two elites with no problems.

 

My understanding is that AoE tanking is best done by Powertechs/Republic equivalant while Sith Assasins and Jedi Shadows are in the middle for single/aoe.

 

I could be wrong in the play styles a bit as I haven't played an Assasin or Powertech but I do have a level 50 Jugg who tanks and I normall just concentrate on the elites.

 

My guild and I learnt early on that not everything needs to be tanked so don't bother. Your job is to hold on to the hardest hitting mobs while the rest kill the easy ones on their own.

 

This right here is what everyone should be doing. Even a healer can burst down a weak enemy before anyone even needs a heal. I have been starting all my flashpoints saying kill order on trash is weak>strong>elite and have not had any problems or complaints.

I did not read ALL of the posts, but I do strongly agree with the OPs original sentiment, and this has been a major discussion among the guardian community as well.

 

However I think it should be a focus more on single target threat. I am just under 40 on my juggernaut which out of the multitude of classes I am playing is by far my favorite. My rotation and general feel is quite smooth and fun, however I am noticing trouble holding threat when I am doing a solid rotation.

 

Now I was partying with a 40 marauder at level 36, however regardless of this fact I do not think I should have been struggling to keep threat on a single mob when I had him guarded. I mean honestly threat should not be at the top of my priorities when tanking, it should be maybe third on the list, behind mitigation and observation (adds, positioning). This is apparently a major issue that has been discussed in great amounts among the jugg community. Im cool with not being able to AOE tank, and I in fact do not think AOE tanking is fun (coming from a WoW background where CC has become obsolete, and remember my days of FF11).

 

Where I see AOE tanking going is no where. We are all way to spoiled (especially if you come from a WoW background). With DPS focusing on silver or weaker enemies you have plenty of time building threat on tough mobs by simply using damage abilities while using your taunts, saber throws, and grips to generate a bit of hate on weak mobs. Keeping them all attacking you is secondary to straight dps output or CC (weak mobs).

 

However that is where I am seeing the problems. Again in a situation like that when the DPS come back to the main toughest mob, I am still losing hate, even with the head start, which is ludicrous.