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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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I have added my question(s) to the Live Stream 2 topic in General. My questions are on page 10 and I quote fabiyun's specific question about SGR's. I recommend we all add a question to it by quoting each other so they cannot say it was an isolated question.

 

~JC

 

I posted, quoting MoogleNut. I'll have to buy more tea-bags for tomorrow and the inevitable flaming and I'm going to receive for daring to ask about SGRA's outside of the containment zone.

 

@Slaign - I've been involved in the discrimination discussion, but at this point I must admit I have very little enthusiasm for it or anything much else besides. It was my (very poorly done, as you can probably tell) attempt at questioning the idea of discrimination from Bioware in an abstract manner. I don't expect **** from Bioware, really. I realise development takes forever and ages and eons, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking for at least the basic "are you intending to introduce this content, ever?", even though I know it's not my right to even be in this discussion. Unless of course someone asks me to stop being such an appropriative **** and check my privilege, as it were.

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Antagonistic. My word for today.

 

As a marginalised person you have no choice but getting used to being antagonised. Privileged people treat you as a child. Perhaps this is a form of projection, as they are the ones who have something to learn. Perhaps even in an infant way, learning to share and treating people equally.

 

Nevertheless I'm making my boundary clear. Don't antagonise me.

I understand my own interests. Thank you for your support. I can sort out my own feelings. Thank you for your consideration. I can sort out my own behaviour. Thanks for your concern.

I don't feel sorry for privileged people being confronted with their behaviour. I don't feel that I should let myself be discriminated against to spare their feelings. That is in actuality much of the essence of what privilege entails. Don't think that I will take you seriously when you tell me that my interests are obviously third rate in comparison to the privileged person's interests. Don't think that you can tell me that I should be understanding this.

 

I also don't think that I should on a constant basis be put in a defensive corner because people feel that they need to share with me the troubles of privileged life. I tend to ignore these opinions. Sometimes I have had enough and try to make clear in the nicest way that I've reached my limit.

 

But here too one opens the door to more offense. Because voicing my opinion is again infringing on the privileged person's taken right to tell me how I should take it. How I should understand how they mean it. How I should feel about that. And what I am allowed to say about that. Of course, to serve my interests, because privileged people know better than I do what my interests are.

 

To then just put it there. Well what way did you mean it? You spoke to me as if I'm a child but you didn't mean it? You told me that I shouldn't feel a certain way because you don't feel that way, but you don't mean it? You as a privileged person understand the situation, but I don't? Am I getting it right? And to be clear, I actually don't want you to answer; instead ask and answer these questions to yourself. I've had this discussion thousands of times in my life, and trust me, I've heard all the answers. And not to be rude, but I don't much care about yours.

 

By all means, voice your opinion. Please do give your support if you feel you should. And add to the discussion. But don't try to tell marginalised people how they should go about things. What their interests are. How they should behave. How they should feel. We, like you, and any other person in this planet (yes even a child, it has been proven that antagonising children is bad for their development) can sort these things out for themselves. Much like I'm not telling you any of these things. What I am asking you, is to treat me with respect and equality. Much like how you're treated. Thank you.

 

And I do very much mean it. Do contribute to this discussion. But leave the antagonising rubbish out of it. It serves no purpose whatsoever. And yes I understand that you didn't mean it that way. I'm trying to be direct and confrontational about it, so hopefully you will understand too. And we can have a discussion on equal terms. Because that is so much the issue. You're very welcome, but treat me with the same respect, as I'm sure you mean to, but just didn't realise. That is privilege, we all have been raised with some of it. I had to unlearn much of my white privilege. My behaviour I can change. My skin tone I cannot, and the only thing I can do is try to be aware of my privilege and take responsibility for it by my actions.

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Fabiyun, I'm sorry if anything I've posted has come across as being from a position of privilege or if I've ever seemed to be telling people how they should act or feel. Neither of those are ever my intention and I do my utmost to keep my autonomy out of other people's autonomy (hence why I use a lot of "I", "me" and "my" and try to only ever use "we" when referring to definite events in this thread), but if you feel I've been stepping on people's toes or putting words in their mouths just... yeah... tell me to shut up.

 

The last thing I want to be is the condescending white woman in the room full of people who actually matter.

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Fabiyun, I'm sorry if anything I've posted has come across as being from a position of privilege or if I've ever seemed to be telling people how they should act or feel. Neither of those are ever my intention and I do my utmost to keep my autonomy out of other people's autonomy (hence why I use a lot of "I", "me" and "my" and try to only ever use "we" when referring to definite events in this thread), but if you feel I've been stepping on people's toes or putting words in their mouths just... yeah... tell me to shut up.

 

The last thing I want to be is the condescending white woman in the room full of people who actually matter.

 

You've never done any of it Tatile. You're wonderful! *hugs*

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You've never done any of it Tatile. You're wonderful! *hugs*

 

Sweet! I'll go back to trying to write my fav boys being emotionally intimate without it devolving into weird-awkward make-up sex :D

 

And looking at shoes. I have a terrible shoe obsession at the moment ._.

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I posted, quoting MoogleNut. I'll have to buy more tea-bags for tomorrow and the inevitable flaming and I'm going to receive for daring to ask about SGRA's outside of the containment zone.

 

@Slaign - I've been involved in the discrimination discussion, but at this point I must admit I have very little enthusiasm for it or anything much else besides. It was my (very poorly done, as you can probably tell) attempt at questioning the idea of discrimination from Bioware in an abstract manner. I don't expect **** from Bioware, really. I realise development takes forever and ages and eons, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking for at least the basic "are you intending to introduce this content, ever?", even though I know it's not my right to even be in this discussion. Unless of course someone asks me to stop being such an appropriative **** and check my privilege, as it were.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning anyone's right to ask about, insist on, or demand information about this. That would be hypocritical, as I want the information too. I also think it's incorrect to say you don't have a right to expect better from BioWare. I would personally prefer transparency, I just don't expect it. I also don't see why it isn't your right to be in this discussion, in your view.

 

SGRA content impacts more than just the LGBT community, and that's fine. I am personally not LGBT, I just have a gender preference in games of Female, and would prefer to also romance females. I would have stern words for anyone, LGBT or otherwise, who claims I don't have a right to weigh in on this issue.

 

Some people are just clinging to the Sword of Discrimination as if it's the only weapon we have in this fight. They act as if discriminatory behavior is the only charge we can make against BioWare that has any merit for why we should get this content. That's simply not true. All we need is the promises we were given, that alone is enough to insist upon the fulfillment of those promises.

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Sweet! I'll go back to trying to write my fav boys being emotionally intimate without it devolving into weird-awkward make-up sex :D

 

And looking at shoes. I have a terrible shoe obsession at the moment ._.

 

You know I think you're a wonderful contributor. And that should be said too. I think most who've been keeping this topic alive deserve credit. BW doesn't deserve any, they've not added anything.

 

You've posted your thoughts, shared your opinions, and you've done so by not being dismissive of other people's concerns. And that is very much what I felt I needed to say. (Oh and you have every right to be in the discussion, we're all human, we all have the same rights)

 

Share the love.

 

Maybe we should go shopping together ^_^

Edited by fabiyun
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They act as if discriminatory behavior is the only charge we can make against BioWare that has any merit for why we should get this content.

 

Discrimination has nothing to do with why we should get this content. The content should have been in the game on day 1 simply because its the right thing to do.

 

That's simply not true. All we need is the promises we were given, that alone is enough to insist upon the fulfillment of those promises.

 

Personally I don't think we'll get this content promises or not. Discrimination isn't being used here as a weapon to try and force BW to do or say anything. It is simply an adjective that amply describes the way the content and the community has been handled.

 

I don't think if every GLBT activist group in the country came pounding at EA's door that it would get us this content. So since it is simply all us just here talking amongst ourselves we might as well call it what it is. No reason to beat around the bush about it.

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Some people are just clinging to the Sword of Discrimination as if it's the only weapon we have in this fight. They act as if discriminatory behavior is the only charge we can make against BioWare that has any merit for why we should get this content. That's simply not true. All we need is the promises we were given, that alone is enough to insist upon the fulfillment of those promises.

 

I think that part of the problem is due to the nature of the content, it's hard to not feel that there is an element of discrimination (whether it be homophobic or heterosexist - if the early days of beta are anything to go by, somebody went "durr, straight people" and stopped there), so it is inevitable that it is going to crop up in discussion. Should we bring our grievances to a media body, the topic of discrimination is most definitely going to be talked about, but I don't think it should be the centre of discussion. I think it's important to talk about how we feel this topic and the people involved have been treated, if only so that when discrimination is brought up by outside interviewers, we aren't stuck trying to find our position.

 

"It is heterocentric because this; there is implication of tacit homophobia because this;" move on, get rid of the idea of discrimination being a point of our subject, but still be sure of our position of it because someone is going to ask.

 

We are asking for this content to be in the game, but there will always be that looming shadow in the background that during the development cycle of OGRA's, someone decided that LGBT persons either wouldn't be playing this game or didn't deserve to represented at launch. We just have to accept that that cloud is going to forever hang over this discussion, but I do agree that that doesn't mean we should focus on it.

 

 

@Fabiyun - I feel in love with a pair of wedge boots from Irregular Choice. £150 :( and the man still has no idea what to get me for Christmas :rolleyes: Last year I wanted Batman comics and ended up with SWTOR instead.

 

 

This may be a very stupid question to ask, but has anyone ever drafted a formal petition concerning the matter, had others sign it, and then sent it to BW Austin?

 

The major outpouring of emotion and support during beta should have been indication enough, but with a petition there's the issue of advertisement, particularly with how many aggressively homophobic people there are on this forum.

Edited by Tatile
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The major outpouring of emotion and support during beta should have been indication enough, but with a petition there's the issue of advertisement, particularly with how many aggressively homophobic people there are on this forum.

 

Well, i think it might be worth a try.

I mean, nothing has worked so far, so all options must be considered.

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Well, i think it might be worth a try.

I mean, nothing has worked so far, so all options must be considered.

 

Fair point. Any ideas for petition sites?

 

 

 

We have a containment breach!

 

"Good god, the gays! Quick! Get the grey paint and the vacuums! There's glitter everywhere! Oh no here comes the fabulous steamroller!"

 

Because I am a terrible person and this is the first thing that popped into my head.

 

(Picture is from this article on The Oatmeal.)

 

Edit: I must also add that one thing I would buy from the Cartel Shop with absolutely no regret is a blaster rifle that shoots glitter instead of lasers. Why? I'm a healer, my bullets are ineffective anyway, they might as well be prett..ier, I have the pink/purple crystal :p

 

(Still a terrible person, but accepting my inner glamorous, materialistic, show-loving, cake-eating diva.)

Edited by Tatile
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Fun romances on the way!

"We have plenty of devious new foes, deadly conflicts, and fun romances on the way"

Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/28/swtor-story-secrets-revealed-by-lead-writer-hall-hood/#continued

 

Yes, he does say that... and here comes the but... yay, romances, but... will they be SG or not? That's a question that is yet unanswered, sadly.

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Fun romances on the way!

"We have plenty of devious new foes, deadly conflicts, and fun romances on the way"

Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/28/swtor-story-secrets-revealed-by-lead-writer-hall-hood/#continued

 

If he had dodged the "Makeb = class stories or not?" question any harder, he'd have slipped into Bullet Time.

 

At least I learnt that Moose is still (sort of) around, that's something.

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Fun romances on the way!

"We have plenty of devious new foes, deadly conflicts, and fun romances on the way"

Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/28/swtor-story-secrets-revealed-by-lead-writer-hall-hood/#continued

 

Hmm...I think this might be the closest to actual information we might get with Bioware being so tight lipped about this whole thing.

 

He specifically said fun romances, not a continuation of romances. This leads me to believe additional romance options, which in turn leads me to believe it is a confirmation that SGRAs are coming. I doubt they would add new romance-able companions before SGRAs, at least. I mean, we already knew they were coming so this isn't even more information but it is...something I guess.

 

Maybe I'm trying to grasp at something that isn't there but it is all we have to go on, unfortunately.

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I wouldn't read too much into that. That could easily be random non-companion romances (and not necessarily SGR ones) coming with the new planet. I wouldn't get your hopes up till you see something actually hit the Test servers. Edited by Nozybidaj
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**delurks**

 

Wow. I'm gone for less than a day to my first raid and come back to all this. :eek:

 

There are two parts of the discrimination debate that does make sense in my opinion.

 

Again, this is just my opinion and my perspective. It does not mean I'm right, so please don't utterly pick apart this post.

 

First, the nature of the Gabe PvP video and the deleted Tweet by Hall Hood. I recently had the privilege of joining a great guild a couple of days ago and I was talking to them about this thread and this topic on mumble. I explained Stephen Reid's and Daniel Erickson's comments, and that no mod or dev has been officially allowed to say squat since the Guild Summit.

 

My guildies pointed out that those guys left the company and I told them we hadn't had any word from any current employee about this. I told them about Gabe's comment about SGRs, Hall Hood confirming it via Twitter only to have the Tweet quickly deleted. My guildies agreed that they way that this is being handled is very weird and unfair. They do not post on the forums and are pretty neutral when it comes to the idea of SGRs in general. Even they thought this was handled in such as way that it does not reflect well, to say the least. Most of them are one of those rare breed of subscribers that never took a break. They've seen examples of how information is poorly handled in this game.

 

If they thought that this was messed up, then I suspect something is truly wrong here.

 

I can understand not wanting to give away spoilers, but it has certainly moved beyond that.

 

The second is on a more personal note. On 10/30, Disney was confirmed to have buying out LucasArts as well as all studio properties. Naturally, this led to a ton of ill-thought out posts going, "Disney is anti-gay!"

 

I put together the SGR FAQ, so I figured why not do some research to back it up. So I did the research on "Gay Day," Disney offering up the wedding packages to all couples including same sex ones, their policy on offering benefits for same sex couples and also the Marvel comic that had a same gender couple on it. I always believe in, "Links/screenshots or it didn't happen," so I made sure the links were viable. I put it up on page 282 on Halloween.

 

Well Uluain opened a thread in the General forums called, "Did I hear this right?" about Makeb. It was considered legit when mods starting using it as one of the redirects for SGR related topics (prior to, this the only redirect, with any other topics on the discussion shunted back here.) I decided to put that question up there. Now, I was warned by Uluain via PM (and it means a lot even a month later:) ) that it would probably be taken down due to the perception that it was political. However, after looking over the forum rules, I made sure that there is no political references in my post.

 

Bare in mind, this is unlike the FAQ, which explicitly talks about Lucas' contribution's to opposing Prop 8 and linking to the list to contributors.

 

Which had been sent to the mods multiple times.

 

So I bit the bullet and posted the info about Disney.

 

Guess what? Yanked within less than 8 hrs. I know I was warned, so I decided to contact Alison Berryman via PM, politely asking what about my post was so political and how I might avoid getting a post like that yanked in the future.

 

No response at all. And I know they read these things; I had sent her a PM wishing her a Happy Halloween the day before which she responded to.

 

So I was never given a reason stated by the forum rules why that post was deleted. I would have accepted just about any answer, so long as I was given one at all.

 

Never once did I get any sort of answer. Oh and the post in question? Still here on this thread, which I was going to add to the SGRA FAQ. I would have added it in about a hundred pages from now.

 

Here is the original post.

 

The mods claim that they read this thread. They claim they are really listening. Again, they have also been sent copies of the FAQ multiple times by posters like Tatile and Uluain. So the overtly political stuff has already been in there.

 

Suddenly, in the General forums, talking about Disney's inclusion of the LGBT community in the workplace as well as for it's customers, it's considered "too political" and taken down. All I did differently was added links and quotes to back my info up to make things clear. I know it was considered as such because a couple of posters had informed me that it was a "political statement" :rolleyes: (and let me know they were reporting me for that.)

 

However, it's allowed to stay here? Is it because it's our little corner of the forums? How...sweet of them to give us that? :confused:

 

Multiple threads are allowed on other features, but we've so far gotten only two, with all others related to this topic shut down. And I don't want to hear, "Well, they are trying to keep the trolling minimal due to the nature of SGRs. They are protecting us, right?" It comes off a chicken thing to do. Rather than face the people that don't want SGRs and will say horrific things (and I do mean horrific...man one of those threads got really bad,) they've shut them all down and up to about 6 weeks ago, would only send them to a back corner of the forums. Not a lot of players look anywhere but the General forums.

 

I apologize if it sounds like I'm ripping on the mods. I'm not attempting to and most of them are very hard working good people. They are giving us what they can and they are still at the mercy of their bosses.

 

It's the ones the dictate the flow of information that have made it extremely ridiculous for everyone involved. For every interview they do about their inclusion of the LGBT community (I think the last one was a couple of weeks ago,) the more utterly bizarre this whole situation is in ToR.

 

That whole thing screams of some discrimination to me. And I am not one to cry wolf, to cry that at a drop of a hat. I do believe gamers in particular can get really self entitled. I know I can be as guilty as anyone else of that, but I know this isn't the case here.

 

I got really angry about that whole handling of the post and my questions about it. Rather than start fights with the mods, I bowed out of the thread for awhile. I maxed my sniper, ended up in a raiding guild, and I'm gearing her up. I don't post here as much, but I do read this thread daily.

 

Given the way this whole thing has been handled from start to present day, I can't blame people for feeling that this is the case.

 

Do I feel that way about EA/BW as a whole? Absolutely not. I think what they say about LGBT rights for the employees and their customers is quite true and they do believe it. I honestly do think the LGBT community as a whole is important to them.

 

From my perspective, I'll maintain that they are very gunshy to put it into a MMO format. And I think that's problem numero uno right there.

 

See, I never knew the ME or DA series even had SGRs. Those are single player games that it's easy to overlook and I never played either series(I finally got smart and started DA:O recently.) When you have one of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) games of all time, that's really high profile. Someone thought it was too risky to put in...and decided to leave it that way for now.

 

Note I said for now. I still believe that it is coming and I still believe that it'll be good. I don't think it's cut and I don't think this was done with maliciousness. Apathy and fear of backlash sure, but not with malice. In my opinion, with this stone cold silence and odd double standards, I can understand why discrimination has been talked about so much here after all.

 

Just my two cred. I have been enjoying all sides of this conversation and it's nice to see an intelligent discussion about this subject from new posters again (Gah, very important edit done there! Amazing what two words can make a difference with. My apologizes. )

 

And now, back to my sniper! :D

 

PS: Things seems to have gotten way too personal guys. It's getting very heated in here, and I don't want to see some well thought out posts removed. :(

 

We need to remember we are passionate gamers that all want this content, and we are all adults.

 

When it comes to getting personal, I'm gonna give a quote from The Dude.

 

"Be cool."

Edited by natashina
missed a word, just now caught it
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Personally I think it's pretty clear that they're being discriminatory. This content has not been handled in the same manner as other content. It is not given close to the same treatment on the forums, is restricted in the number of threads allowed to discuss it in a way that no other topic is and is completely ignored when it makes up the highest percentage in threads asking the community to list questions.

 

I may be wrong but I'm sure I remember a pm someone posted where a community rep stated that discussion of this content was handled differently because of the subject matter and the potential for the topic to receive negative comments. I'll have to have a scout through the thread and see if I can find it, but at any rate that shows that they are not treating it the same. Regardless of whether it is done under the belief of protection it is still discrimination.

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Probably more flirts/one night stands for heterosexual male PCs b/c the game is sorely lacking in that area.

 

That was pretty much what I thought when I saw that quote. They only have what like 30 existing romance options (counting all the one night stands and such). I can hardly see how they get by with just that. Its a travesty I tell you. :p

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