Why? this is a stupid suggestion why bother arguing?

It's a stupid suggestion in your opinion. Which is fine, since you're entitled to your opinion.

Absolutely, but why argue. The chances of this ever happening are very slim, there are many issues with providing this option to players. Advancement would have a different meaning, what is the point of being level 55 Jedi Guardian if you have no access to level 55 skills? Your companions are not available to you. Nothing is the way it should be unless we just throw away all level gaining process which is equivalent to giving you an option to start your new character at max level. It really does not make sense when you think about this without letting your imagination take over.

There are very few issues with providing this option. It may never happen, but the chances are better than "slim."

I think you are confused. I think you think this thread is about base class change, not advanced class change, based on your "what is the point of being level 55 Jedi Guardian if you have no access to level 55 skills? Your companions are not available to you" comment.

Choices and consequences.

 

Could you people just play what you want to play instead of chasing the FOTM?

This is a game. If you think you are accomplishing anything beyond entertaining yourself for the amount of time that you are playing then you really really really should unplug and go outside. Want to feel accomplished? Try getting your 1/4 mile time below 50 seconds. I mean really...

Choices and consequences.

 

Could you people just play what you want to play instead of chasing the FOTM?

do you realize how contradictory your sentence sounds?

people are asking for AC switch precisely becasue they want to play what they want to. I want to let you in on a secret. FOTM is not limited to single base class. FOTM is something that is role dependant as much as its spec dependant.

this is an example I brought up before. imagine that you roll a class for the story and certain trappings that seem cool. like... double blasters. imagine that you read up on how gunslinger works and figure.. hmm, sounds kinda fun actually, and so you pick that and start playing your character... except... it doesn't quite work... you don't like it as much as you thought you would... its just not coming together for you. but you have already invested time, and role playing and possibly rare items into your character. so you keep playing, in hope that "it gets better later on" from your friends is not just empty promises. and you hit mid 40ties and finally get your keystone ability... and its still not working for you. rerolling means abandoning a character you invested quite some time into and redoing them essentially all over again. which in some respects may not even be possible (no longer available items) and is not the same anyways, its just a copy and it becomes less fun to play, regardless of the gameplay. maybe playing through the same story twice is a boring dejavu for you you don't let the player switch, neither their original character, nor a copy are fun to them anymore - how long do they stay playing in this scenario?

now imagine the switch costs cartel coins. and some dedicated raider fills more than one role for their guild. knowing how to play is not a concern - they are dedicated raider, they learn. they can reuse some of the gear maybe even set bonuses here and there. adoptive gear means in case of warriors/knights, switch between armor ratings is not as much of a concern either. but every time they buy that switch? bioware makes more money. money they can then use to develop more content.

but people will leave if optional feature is added! you cry. will they really? and are you sure that more people will leave then will enjoy the feature? how many people may come back if this feature is implemented?

choices should have consequences! "you say" yes. choices should. how you chose to behave with others has consequences of how they treat you later. choices you make in your story determine what titles you get, which npc's stay alive, and which - die. how you chose to spec at any given time has consequences of not only changing the role you may play, but also which abilities you use. but why should some of those consequences, that are not story related - be permanent? do you have something against second chances? AC switch is purely mechanical gameplay feature a slightly more added flexibility to already existing feature of changed spec. what exactly makes rolling the same class twice, just to cover both AC's more valuable than being able to play both on the same character? please don't say practice - nothing is stopping people from practicing after AC change and at max level. what is so wrong with having an option for both methods?

it will discourage people from buying character slots! you say. people who want more alts, most often want them for reasons beyond trying out different AC. and those people will roll alts with or without AC change. and those people most likely already unlocked their maximum extra slots (total of 22) so they are STILL discouraged form buying more character slots. with or without AC change.

balancing issues! what balancing issues? how would this be any different then balancing we have right now? after all AC change is not a fundamental change to a class, its just making a particular choice? temporary instead of permanent.

there are games out there, both MMO's and single player that don't let you change your mind when it comes to picking out your talents. its not fun. it discourages experimentation. more options, more flexibility is a good thing.

do you realize how contradictory your sentence sounds?

 

people are asking for AC switch precisely becasue they want to play what they want to. I want to let you in on a secret. FOTM is not limited to single base class. FOTM is something that is role dependant as much as its spec dependant.

 

this is an example I brought up before. imagine that you roll a class for the story and certain trappings that seem cool. like... double blasters. imagine that you read up on how gunslinger works and figure.. hmm, sounds kinda fun actually, and so you pick that and start playing your character... except... it doesn't quite work... you don't like it as much as you thought you would... its just not coming together for you. but you have already invested time, and role playing and possibly rare items into your character. so you keep playing, in hope that "it gets better later on" from your friends is not just empty promises. and you hit mid 40ties and finally get your keystone ability... and its still not working for you. rerolling means abandoning a character you invested quite some time into and redoing them essentially all over again. which in some respects may not even be possible (no longer available items) and is not the same anyways, its just a copy and it becomes less fun to play, regardless of the gameplay. maybe playing through the same story twice is a boring dejavu for you you don't let the player switch, neither their original character, nor a copy are fun to them anymore - how long do they stay playing in this scenario?

Imagine the player who chooses to roll an operative because they are the most overpowered and best healers. Now imagine that operative healing gets nerfed but sniper DPS gets buffed. Now that player wants to play a sniper but doesn't want to invest the time in leveling a sniper. He wants BW to hand him a sniper simply because he leveled an operative. Maybe he is willing to throw a little money at BW if they will cater to his aversion to the time and effort required to actually level the class he now wants to play (ie. his LAZINESS).

If your concern is truly for those players that have items no longer obtainable in game and NOT laziness, then you should have no problem if an AC change:

* reset your character to level 10

* reset all planetary quests, but not story quests.

* all companions remain with current affection

* all currently owned items are retained

* a passive XP gain buff of say 50% to offset the loss of xp from already completed storyline quests

I think this suggested compromise addresses both the concerns regarding those characters with no longer obtainable items and also many of the concerns that those against class changes have. Of course, I am betting that you will dismiss this compromise as meaningless. IMO, this is likely because your concern is NOT truly for those with no longer obtainable items but rather rooted in an aversion to the effort required to level the desired class( ie. LAZINESS).

now imagine the switch costs cartel coins. and some dedicated raider fills more than one role for their guild. knowing how to play is not a concern - they are dedicated raider, they learn. they can reuse some of the gear maybe even set bonuses here and there. adoptive gear means in case of warriors/knights, switch between armor ratings is not as much of a concern either. but every time they buy that switch? bioware makes more money. money they can then use to develop more content.

but people will leave if optional feature is added! you cry. will they really? and are you sure that more people will leave then will enjoy the feature? how many people may come back if this feature is implemented?

Imagine some dedicated raider who tanks on his assassin. BW nerfs assassins both in tanking and DPS. This player now wants to play a sorcerer but doesn't want to invest the time to actually level a sorcerer. He wants to throw some money at BW if they will cater to HIS LAZINESS.

Allowing AC changes IS allowing class changes, even if in a limited manner. Yes, allowing class changes WILL cost this game subs. Does BW stand to lose more "guaranteed" and RECURRING money in subs than they may make in "possible" and ONE TIME CM sales to cater to the lazy and allow class changes? We, the players, have no way of knowing. Only BW can make that call.

choices should have consequences! "you say" yes. choices should. how you chose to behave with others has consequences of how they treat you later. choices you make in your story determine what titles you get, which npc's stay alive, and which - die. how you chose to spec at any given time has consequences of not only changing the role you may play, but also which abilities you use. but why should some of those consequences, that are not story related - be permanent? do you have something against second chances? AC switch is purely mechanical gameplay feature a slightly more added flexibility to already existing feature of changed spec. what exactly makes rolling the same class twice, just to cover both AC's more valuable than being able to play both on the same character? please don't say practice - nothing is stopping people from practicing after AC change and at max level. what is so wrong with having an option for both methods?

it will discourage people from buying character slots! you say. people who want more alts, most often want them for reasons beyond trying out different AC. and those people will roll alts with or without AC change. and those people most likely already unlocked their maximum extra slots (total of 22) so they are STILL discouraged form buying more character slots. with or without AC change.

For starters, the fact that the devs intentionally designed this game so that NO single character could fill all three roles (AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time). Allowing class changes would negate that design intent.

While some may choose to level the same class more than once, most of the players I know who roll alts will roll a different class with each alt. Very few of the players I know will level the same class more than once on the same server, especially if they can change their SPEC, not their class. This is only my experience, as I said.

If, as you claim, those players who will level alts will do so with or without allowing class changes, and will likely unlock all the extra character slots even if they do not allow class changes, then there is no incentive of added income for BW from extra character slot sales to justify catering to the "have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd.

balancing issues! what balancing issues? how would this be any different then balancing we have right now? after all AC change is not a fundamental change to a class, its just making a particular choice? temporary instead of permanent.

It is a fundamental change to class. Most classes will change weapons, and some will even change armor. Many classes will go from ranged to melee or vice versa.

there are games out there, both MMO's and single player that don't let you change your mind when it comes to picking out your talents. its not fun. it discourages experimentation. more options, more flexibility is a good thing.

You are not discouraged from experimentation and changing your spec. Changing your spec is even free for subscribers. With the field respec it can even be done on the fly, with the exception of WZ's and arena, I believe. There is such a thing as too much flexibility, though.

oh Ratajack, you and I have gone over this before. and I reserved to stop replying to you, becasue of how pointless it is, but its new years eve and champagne is delicious so what the hell. just this one last time.

one, you completely miss the part where i say "playing the same story twice for a lot of people is not fun" part.

its NOT hard to level a character to 55. but just becasue something is not difficult, doesn't making fun. and someone not keen on doing something unfun for them = that dreaded "lazy"

now here's another not hypothetical for you, becasue I've seen people do that over and over, with respecs. bioware rebalances classes and certain specs lose much of their oomph, while others suddenly become powerful. guess what people do? they SWITCH TO THE CURRENTLY POWERFUL SPEC. the so called FOTM. lazy bastards, how dare they? >_>

there are 8 individual stories in this game. there's quite a bit of end game content. there's no inherent value in forcing people to go through the same story twice, just because bioware arbitrarily (yes, arbitrarily) made AC permanent. well... names used to be permanent. we can change those now. races used to be permanent. we can change that as well. we can change appearance on a whim, we can switch between roles on a whim. what makes advanced class (which is not = to base class no matter how much you wish it was - also something we've butted heads on repeatedly) so damn special that it cannot be changed either? absolutely nothing. advance class change doesn't affect the story, it doesn't affect the game balance anymore then field respec, it doesn't conflict with variety of existing flags. all it is is added flexibility. people who want to play through the same story more than once, will do so with or without AC change. people who are happy with their AC ,flash of the month be damned? will continue to be so unless bioware majorly messes with it (and then we have bigger problems than AC change).

and btw, when it comes to hardcore raiders and FOTM - rolling operative to be a healer then switching to dps? doesn't exactly work like that. why? because its a different raid slot. if raid needs a healer, not another dps, what makes that hypothetical hardcore raider so sure they will still keep theirs? they are more likely to have success in switching FOTM by switching to a different class altogether... like, say sorcs are the most powerful now? they would just switch to a sorc, not a sniper. and even if they did go dps, why are you so against it? so they play their character on their account differently. how is that any concern of yours? how does it affect YOU?

oh Ratajack, you and I have gone over this before. and I reserved to stop replying to you, becasue of how pointless it is, but its new years eve and champagne is delicious so what the hell. just this one last time.

 

one, you completely miss the part where i say "playing the same story twice for a lot of people is not fun" part.

 

its NOT hard to level a character to 55. but just becasue something is not difficult, doesn't making fun. and someone not keen on doing something unfun for them = that dreaded "lazy"

 

now here's another not hypothetical for you, becasue I've seen people do that over and over, with respecs. bioware rebalances classes and certain specs lose much of their oomph, while others suddenly become powerful. guess what people do? they SWITCH TO THE CURRENTLY POWERFUL SPEC. the so called FOTM. lazy bastards, how dare they? >_>

 

there are 8 individual stories in this game. there's quite a bit of end game content. there's no inherent value in forcing people to go through the same story twice, just because bioware arbitrarily (yes, arbitrarily) made AC permanent. well... names used to be permanent. we can change those now. races used to be permanent. we can change that as well. we can change appearance on a whim, we can switch between roles on a whim. what makes advanced class (which is not = to base class no matter how much you wish it was - also something we've butted heads on repeatedly) so damn special that it cannot be changed either? absolutely nothing. advance class change doesn't affect the story, it doesn't affect the game balance anymore then field respec, it doesn't conflict with variety of existing flags. all it is is added flexibility. people who want to play through the same story more than once, will do so with or without AC change. people who are happy with their AC ,flash of the month be damned? will continue to be so unless bioware majorly messes with it (and then we have bigger problems than AC change).

 

and btw, when it comes to hardcore raiders and FOTM - rolling operative to be a healer then switching to dps? doesn't exactly work like that. why? because its a different raid slot. if raid needs a healer, not another dps, what makes that hypothetical hardcore raider so sure they will still keep theirs? they are more likely to have success in switching FOTM by switching to a different class altogether... like, say sorcs are the most powerful now? they would just switch to a sorc, not a sniper. and even if they did go dps, why are you so against it? so they play their character on their account differently. how is that any concern of yours? how does it affect YOU?

Laziness is defined as an aversion to work or effort. it makes no difference what causes that aversion. Thus, a player's aversion to leveling the class they want to play, no matter the reason for the aversion, IS LAZINESS.

I've never said that AC=base class. I've said that AC's are DIFFERENT classes, no matter how much you wish they were not. This is backed up by the devs in the statements that I have quoted may times in this thread.

That "hypothetical" hardcore raider may well level a sorc, but will need something with which to raid while he does so. Thus the desire to "throw money at BW" to change his class from nerfed operative to OP sniper.

Laziness is defined as an aversion to work or effort. it makes no difference what causes that aversion. Thus, a player's aversion to leveling the class they want to play, no matter the reason for the aversion, IS LAZINESS.

 

I've never said that AC=base class. I've said that AC's are DIFFERENT classes, no matter how much you wish they were not. This is backed up by the devs in the statements that I have quoted may times in this thread.

 

That "hypothetical" hardcore raider may well level a sorc, but will need something with which to raid while he does so. Thus the desire to "throw money at BW" to change his class from nerfed operative to OP sniper.

God forbid someone be lazy on an online game.

Absolutely, but why argue. The chances of this ever happening are very slim, there are many issues with providing this option to players. Advancement would have a different meaning, what is the point of being level 55 Jedi Guardian if you have no access to level 55 skills? Your companions are not available to you. Nothing is the way it should be unless we just throw away all level gaining process which is equivalent to giving you an option to start your new character at max level. It really does not make sense when you think about this without letting your imagination take over.

Oh the chances of this ever happening are very slim? Looks like we have someone with bioware connections over here. Please tell us more.

Imagine the player who chooses to roll an operative because they are the most overpowered and best healers. Now imagine that operative healing gets nerfed but sniper DPS gets buffed. Now that player wants to play a sniper but doesn't want to invest the time in leveling a sniper. He wants BW to hand him a sniper simply because he leveled an operative. Maybe he is willing to throw a little money at BW if they will cater to his aversion to the time and effort required to actually level the class he now wants to play (ie. his LAZINESS).

 

If your concern is truly for those players that have items no longer obtainable in game and NOT laziness, then you should have no problem if an AC change:

 

* reset your character to level 10

* reset all planetary quests, but not story quests.

* all companions remain with current affection

* all currently owned items are retained

* a passive XP gain buff of say 50% to offset the loss of xp from already completed storyline quests

 

I think this suggested compromise addresses both the concerns regarding those characters with no longer obtainable items and also many of the concerns that those against class changes have. Of course, I am betting that you will dismiss this compromise as meaningless. IMO, this is likely because your concern is NOT truly for those with no longer obtainable items but rather rooted in an aversion to the effort required to level the desired class( ie. LAZINESS).

 

 

 

 

Imagine some dedicated raider who tanks on his assassin. BW nerfs assassins both in tanking and DPS. This player now wants to play a sorcerer but doesn't want to invest the time to actually level a sorcerer. He wants to throw some money at BW if they will cater to HIS LAZINESS.

 

Allowing AC changes IS allowing class changes, even if in a limited manner. Yes, allowing class changes WILL cost this game subs. Does BW stand to lose more "guaranteed" and RECURRING money in subs than they may make in "possible" and ONE TIME CM sales to cater to the lazy and allow class changes? We, the players, have no way of knowing. Only BW can make that call.

 

 

 

For starters, the fact that the devs intentionally designed this game so that NO single character could fill all three roles (AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time). Allowing class changes would negate that design intent.

 

While some may choose to level the same class more than once, most of the players I know who roll alts will roll a different class with each alt. Very few of the players I know will level the same class more than once on the same server, especially if they can change their SPEC, not their class. This is only my experience, as I said.

 

If, as you claim, those players who will level alts will do so with or without allowing class changes, and will likely unlock all the extra character slots even if they do not allow class changes, then there is no incentive of added income for BW from extra character slot sales to justify catering to the "have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd.

 

 

 

It is a fundamental change to class. Most classes will change weapons, and some will even change armor. Many classes will go from ranged to melee or vice versa.

 

 

 

You are not discouraged from experimentation and changing your spec. Changing your spec is even free for subscribers. With the field respec it can even be done on the fly, with the exception of WZ's and arena, I believe. There is such a thing as too much flexibility, though.

How is that any different then WoW nerfing Ret paladins and buffing Holy paladins? No one wants to play a class/spec thats at the bottom of the chain.

How is that any different then WoW nerfing Ret paladins and buffing Holy paladins? No one wants to play a class/spec thats at the bottom of the chain.

If they nerf ret and buff holy, you can change your spec from ret to holy.

If they nerf paladins across the board and buff warriors, you cannot change your class from pally to warrior.

Changing spec =/= changing class.

Changing AC is changing class, no matter how much you wish it weren't.

If they nerf ret and buff holy, you can change your spec from ret to holy.

 

If they nerf paladins across the board and buff warriors, you cannot change your class from pally to warrior.

 

Changing spec =/= changing class.

 

Changing AC is changing class, no matter how much you wish it weren't.

but its not.

but its not.

That's right. I forgot that you know better than the devs. Or, at least you think you do.

That's right. I forgot that you know better than the devs. Or, at least you think you do.

thats correct

That's right. I forgot that you know better than the devs. Or, at least you think you do.

You've got one fired dev's word that vaguely supports your purely semantics argument. But even his rationale was suspect - it makes the game sound a bit more developed to say it has 8 classes instead of 4 (or even 16 instead of 8 but I've not heard a dev say with a straight face that this game has 16 distinct classes). But your point is moot because Wow doesn't have advanced classes. If Advanced Classes are the same as "Classes" why didn't BW just call them "Classes" and not bother giving them the same stats and mostly the same gear and lots of shared abilities?

I can't think of any other MMORPG off-hand where completely different "classes" share many of the same abilities along with very similar if not identical gear/race/stats (including Wow). Note the combination because I know you're going to pick and choose - lots of games have different classes that share the same stats OR gear OR race options but none have all both of those AND many shared abilities (not just similar names that do similar things: identical effects and names) that I can think of.

Wow is a bad example for you, not sure why you're running with it. Advanced Classes are really just like skill trees in Wow - the difference here is that ppl have five skill trees instead of the three that they have in Wow (and some of those skill trees become locked out).

Oh the chances of this ever happening are very slim? Looks like we have someone with bioware connections over here. Please tell us more.

Devs have varied their position on this. Originally it was "definitely going to happen", then they changed their minds... The latest word that we got shortly after f2p went live was a definite "probably gonna happen". You can skim through this thread to get the hard quotes (or google).

Devs have varied their position on this. Originally it was "definitely going to happen", then they changed their minds... The latest word that we got shortly after f2p went live was a definite "probably gonna happen". You can skim through this thread to get the hard quotes (or google).

I have seen the quotes but they dont mean much to me. Im assuming the majority of us including myself would like to see a newer dev post about this topic and what they are thinking on it. I dont see what more else can be said on this particular topic.

You've got one fired dev's word that vaguely supports your purely semantics argument. But even his rationale was suspect - it makes the game sound a bit more developed to say it has 8 classes instead of 4 (or even 16 instead of 8 but I've not heard a dev say with a straight face that this game has 16 distinct classes). But your point is moot because Wow doesn't have advanced classes. If Advanced Classes are the same as "Classes" why didn't BW just call them "Classes" and not bother giving them the same stats and mostly the same gear and lots of shared abilities?

 

I can't think of any other MMORPG off-hand where completely different "classes" share many of the same abilities along with very similar if not identical gear/race/stats (including Wow). Note the combination because I know you're going to pick and choose - lots of games have different classes that share the same stats OR gear OR race options but none have all both of those AND many shared abilities (not just similar names that do similar things: identical effects and names) that I can think of.

 

Wow is a bad example for you, not sure why you're running with it. Advanced Classes are really just like skill trees in Wow - the difference here is that ppl have five skill trees instead of the three that they have in Wow (and some of those skill trees become locked out).

Well said.

Laziness is defined as an aversion to work or effort. it makes no difference what causes that aversion. Thus, a player's aversion to leveling the class they want to play, no matter the reason for the aversion, IS LAZINESS.

 

I'm going to jump in here, WHAT!!!

Laziness is an aversion to work or effort, makes no difference what that aversion is.... Is not the same as playing a game and not wanting to repeat the same content...

So I said to my GF the other night, hey girl, ya wanna watch The Matrix for the 105th time cuz I love it that much? She tells me nah! it's boring for me I know the story... SO I turn to her and say... Jeez ur a lazy b***h aren't you?

Sounds stupid doesn't it!!!

Your logic does not apply to entertainment. Entertainment is for enjoyment purposes, if said person doesn't find said entertainment enjoyable and thus refuses to do it, it doesn't make said person lazy.

I'm going to jump in here, WHAT!!!

 

Laziness is an aversion to work or effort, makes no difference what that aversion is.... Is not the same as playing a game and not wanting to repeat the same content...

 

So I said to my GF the other night, hey girl, ya wanna watch The Matrix for the 105th time cuz I love it that much? She tells me nah! it's boring for me I know the story... SO I turn to her and say... Jeez ur a lazy b***h aren't you?

 

Sounds stupid doesn't it!!!

 

Your logic does not apply to entertainment. Entertainment is for enjoyment purposes, if said person doesn't find said entertainment enjoyable and thus refuses to do it, it doesn't make said person lazy.

Exactly and well said. Seems more and more people playing MMorpg's seem to have forgotten these are suppose to be fun and for enjoyment, not some second job or something that requires effort and work to do well and get what you want. Not saying they should hand out everything but dang if it isn't crazy just how many want to say someone is lazy cause they don't feel like doing the same thing twice...

I'm going to jump in here, WHAT!!!

 

Laziness is an aversion to work or effort, makes no difference what that aversion is.... Is not the same as playing a game and not wanting to repeat the same content...

 

So I said to my GF the other night, hey girl, ya wanna watch The Matrix for the 105th time cuz I love it that much? She tells me nah! it's boring for me I know the story... SO I turn to her and say... Jeez ur a lazy b***h aren't you?

 

Sounds stupid doesn't it!!!

 

Your logic does not apply to entertainment. Entertainment is for enjoyment purposes, if said person doesn't find said entertainment enjoyable and thus refuses to do it, it doesn't make said person lazy.

THANK YOU.

fantastic example.