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PvP Suggestion: Revising Electro Net

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
PvP Suggestion: Revising Electro Net

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
06.27.2019 , 02:17 PM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
More incoherent babble. I never said it ever would or should be perfect. But they should be constantly doing balance tweaks, like virtually every other competitive game does. It's laughable to suggest that this game is as balanced as it could be.
I have always suggested they do small tweaks more frequently. It regards to the current game being as balanced as it could be is a tricky one to answer, even for me. I'm not gonna try and answer it since it would be very complicated, and when that happens, we all know that you read it as incomprehensible babble =p
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
06.27.2019 , 02:51 PM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Just nonsense, as usual. It's very strange to me that some people like to pretend that this game is somehow in a state of perfect balance. Just because everything can be worked around or overcome does not mean that it's as good as it can be. I'm not sure why people are so happy to settle for mediocrity.
did you just get back from a timeout? hehe

going on a tangent. nothing new has been stated about the enet suggesiton:

just want to point out that I did weeklies on a couple mandos (assault the gunnery) last week (did each weekly in one night). I'm using that to supplement my 2-5 hours per night of regs when I say, mercs are only slightly more difficult to kill than juggs, and you kill them exactly the same way: aoe over reflect. you can dps through kolto/ED, but stun through the DR. really not rocket science.

at the end of the night(s), every single yolo match came down to who was the weakest player (not counting mismatched roles or 3v4s), not the weakest AC. more often than not, it was a sin or a mara (there were a couple of each). a handful were healer roulette. I can think of one specific dps mando who I would say is soft at the start of the match and my team would kinda be like "no the jugg." at which point I just roll my eyes b/c I know the mando just burns through his dcds too quickly and will drop faster than the particular jugg on the other side, who I know can maximize his survivability better.

honestly, there is only one AC that is a free kill (as dps), and that's PT/VG. no one else is free food or immortal. these theoretical "My AC will always beat your AC" conversations are largely irrelevant to yolo because tell me a time when you have a 4v4 yolo in which all 8 players were fully capable of maximizing the potential of their classes? once or twice a night? a week? a month? I didn't find one such game in 20-30 matches. the reality is that the weakest player, not the weakest class, determines the vast majority of yolo queue matches. I think ppl in the queue are too brain dead to realize it just like ppl jump into WZs and immediately claim that they were globaled because of gear.
Krack

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
06.27.2019 , 03:13 PM | #263
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
did you just get back from a timeout? hehe
No, I've never gotten any kind of forum punishment.

Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
mercs are only slightly more difficult to kill than juggs
I mean, maybe if you're a really bad merc, sure. If you are a merc with half a brain, you can survive at least twice as long as the best dps juggs, all while going through your damage rotation virtually uninterrupted.

Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
the reality is that the weakest player, not the weakest class, determines the vast majority of yolo queue matches.
That's really irrelevant when discussing class balance though, which almost always assumes players of equal skill, which yes, does happen. Furthermore, it is quite stupid to say balance doesn't matter just because players vary in skill level.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
06.27.2019 , 03:25 PM | #264
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post


That's really irrelevant when discussing class balance though, which almost always assumes players of equal skill, which yes, does happen. Furthermore, it is quite stupid to say balance doesn't matter just because players vary in skill level.
is it though? because you have argued time and again that "theory" (granked/trinity) is trumepd by "practice" (yolo). so now you want to come back to theory that when played to its potential merc OP. which is commical to me, because the most powerful classes when played to the maximum potential are definitely (dps) mara, sniper, and (heal) sorc (I'm ignorant regarding tanks). but w/e. so which is it? theory or practice? if the experience in yolo is determined by player and not spec (with the glaring exception of PT), then why are we talking about anything not PT for balance and matchmaking for team composition?

(thank GAWD for Gorgias! )

edit:

I feel I'm getting carried away in this. I don't want to tap in for zurules and I definitely don't want to tap in for jucy-lives. but if your concern is yolos, I have to tell you...I don't see what you see in that experience. it's not "omg nets!" the only thing I agree on in terms of class viability is PT dps is just hosed.
Krack

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
06.27.2019 , 04:10 PM | #265
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
is it though? because you have argued time and again that "theory" (granked/trinity) is trumepd by "practice" (yolo). so now you want to come back to theory that when played to its potential merc OP. which is commical to me, because the most powerful classes when played to the maximum potential are definitely (dps) mara, sniper, and (heal) sorc (I'm ignorant regarding tanks). but w/e. so which is it? theory or practice? if the experience in yolo is determined by player and not spec (with the glaring exception of PT), then why are we talking about anything not PT for balance and matchmaking for team composition?
I'm not making theory-based arguments. Mercs are, in practice, the best solo ranked dps class. That's not open for debate. If you are playing merc and finding that you die as quickly as you do as a jugg...you don't know how to play merc properly. If you are killing mercs as fast as you are killing juggs, you are simply facing very bad mercs. I honestly didn't think that these kinds of obvious truths needed to be stated.

Maras, snipers, ops, sorc healers and jugg skanks are all very good as well, but they are relatively balanced. Personally, I would like to see Force camo's cooldown increased so maras can't stealth out as frequently, but otherwise I think they're fine.

Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
but if your concern is yolos, I have to tell you...I don't see what you see in that experience. it's not "omg nets!" the only thing I agree on in terms of class viability is PT dps is just hosed.
It's silly that I have to say this for the 10th time, but I don't personally struggle against mercs. There are so many of them, I am intimately familiar with how to beat them. And most of the players that queue on merc are mediocre at best, so that makes it even easier (and those players would be getting globaled on any other class, but they can mash the merc dcds and at least put out some damage). That doesn't change the balance concerns, because there are also plenty of mercs playing them up to their potential.

Dps pts are certainly the biggest balance issue. Dps mercs are a close second. They simply have too much survivability while still being able to do full damage, and they can offheal. Every other dps spec has to sacrifice damage output to survive except merc. It's quite a simple issue really.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
06.28.2019 , 07:28 AM | #266
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post

Dps pts are certainly the biggest balance issue. Dps mercs are a close second. They simply have too much survivability while still being able to do full damage, and they can offheal. Every other dps spec has to sacrifice damage output to survive except merc. It's quite a simple issue really.
if you consider the length of a football field "close," then sure.

You consider yourself a good or competent player, but not great, yes? I'm saying this based on your arguments with zurules in which you assess his and your own prowess. You also said here, in conversation with me (for the 10th time!) that you have no problem dealing with dps mercs. You "know how to handle them," iirc. So a good or competent player can handle mercs, and mercs don't break the queue because more often than not, it's weakest player not weakest AC that determines matches.

On the other hand, PT dps is hot garbage in yolo. They melt faster than fan appeal for GoT in season 8 (was originally going to go with "the iron throne in dragon fire" -- which was better? ). PT dps are so bad that they are the only dps AC in the game that is effectively prohibited from queuing solo ranked. HTF can you seriously sit there and say fixing mercs is a "close second" to fixing PT dps?

as for earlier statements regarding balance changes during our dialog in this thread, you suggest that it's a good idea to make multiple changes at once. I maintain that that is a horrible approach to balance (between classes or for entire formats). for example, if you are going to target merc dps (enet nerf/bastion -- and let me say, that grenade bastion was palpable, as would be one for enet!), then you cannot also nerf their dcds at the same time. there's no way to know how much of an impact either nerf will have until they reach PTS at the very least, but the live game in reality. so no. I do not think you can do both.

I also think the most pressing issue is matchmaking, which results, e.g., in 3 nets on one team and none on another. putting a bastion on enet effectively nerfs the greatest offensive utility that 2 of your 4 team members bring to the game, a game in which focusing down a single target is 90% of the game. multiple nets is the symptom of the disease. treat the disease (matchmaking), not the symptom, as has been stated numerous times.

anyway. I like a little forum pvp, but this is just the same stuff back and forth. so...I'll try not to reply again.
Krack

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
06.28.2019 , 07:44 AM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
You consider yourself a good or competent player, but not great, yes? I'm saying this based on your arguments with zurules in which you assess his and your own prowess. You also said here, in conversation with me (for the 10th time!) that you have no problem dealing with dps mercs. You "know how to handle them," iirc. So a good or competent player can handle mercs, and mercs don't break the queue because more often than not, it's weakest player not weakest AC that determines matches.
First, in terms of the good and not great comment, I believe what I said was I would never call myself a "great" player because I'm not a narcissist. I wasn't putting myself down or ceding ground to anyone else. What I meant by handling mercs is that I know the best way to deal with them. And often, because they're mediocre, that means killing them too. But that doesn't mean it's always possible to execute it, because mercs can survive inordinate amounts of time while doing max damage if played well. Again, this is such a basic point, just because mercs don't "break the queue" does not mean that they are not in need of balance changes. By your reasoning, there should never be any balance changes again.

Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
as for earlier statements regarding balance changes during our dialog in this thread, you suggest that it's a good idea to make multiple changes at once. I maintain that that is a horrible approach to balance (between classes or for entire formats). for example, if you are going to target merc dps (enet nerf/bastion -- and let me say, that grenade bastion was palpable, as would be one for enet!), then you cannot also nerf their dcds at the same time. there's no way to know how much of an impact either nerf will have until they reach PTS at the very least, but the live game in reality. so no. I do not think you can do both.
The net changes would only affect multiple mercs, not individuals...so it wouldn't even really be a net nerf. Simultaneous changes to merc dcds would be totally appropriate.

Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I also think the most pressing issue is matchmaking, which results, e.g., in 3 nets on one team and none on another. putting a bastion on enet effectively nerfs the greatest offensive utility that 2 of your 4 team members bring to the game, a game in which focusing down a single target is 90% of the game. multiple nets is the symptom of the disease. treat the disease (matchmaking), not the symptom, as has been stated numerous times.
Yes, stacking classes is a more pressing issue. But again, there's no reason they can't do both. It's silly to pretend that they can only make like one change per year. Bioware should be taking constant proactive steps to improve pvp.

Shirvington's Avatar


Shirvington
06.29.2019 , 12:45 PM | #268
Quote: Originally Posted by septru View Post
Or you could fix the problem and not just the symptom.

This is the second time Hottie has proposed this change. And both times were met with ambivalence.

Net is not the problem. 4 Mercs on 1 team is the problem. Net only becomes problematic when you get double/triple/quadruple netted.
Yes. Bastion would solve getting netted multiple times in a row. It's a problem in regs too.

Edit: Even just a Bastion on the hinder effect, and not the slow or the dot.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
06.29.2019 , 04:42 PM | #269
Quote: Originally Posted by Shirvington View Post
Yes. Bastion would solve getting netted multiple times in a row. It's a problem in regs too.

Edit: Even just a Bastion on the hinder effect, and not the slow or the dot.
Yeah in regs I got quad netted regularly on my heal sorc in fact I can vividly recall having 6 e-nets on me at ONE TIME more times than I can count! Itís an epidemic, no doubt!

Laff.

Itís always intriguing to see how differently we as humans can view the same thing yet see it so differently.

I agree with Foxmob, adding multiple nerfs could turn out poorly and thatís the problem with BW they tend to do that. They swing the nerf bat hard AF rarely testing the waters before they make large drastic game altering changes to classes to ďadjustĒ them.
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KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
06.29.2019 , 07:27 PM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Yeah in regs I got quad netted regularly on my heal sorc in fact I can vividly recall having 6 e-nets on me at ONE TIME more times than I can count! Itís an epidemic, no doubt!

Laff.

Itís always intriguing to see how differently we as humans can view the same thing yet see it so differently.

I agree with Foxmob, adding multiple nerfs could turn out poorly and thatís the problem with BW they tend to do that. They swing the nerf bat hard AF rarely testing the waters before they make large drastic game altering changes to classes to ďadjustĒ them.
While I personally think they should just focus on 6.0 at this point, which will inevitably bring an absolute plethora of balance issues, I have seen my buddy (who was at one point a rather despised sage healer on SS), have 3 nets on him, if not one at a time, one right after the other.

I also agree that they do swing the nerf bat hard, which is one of the reasons I think that they should just focus on 6.0 now. They don't seem to understand how to do mild changes.