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Marauder Q&A - DPS and you.

Vegettopk's Avatar

12.19.2011 , 10:16 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandermill View Post
Using basic measure of theory craft. That is the ability to gauge how things perform in a perfect rotation. You can craft the basis of what would do the best dps, based upon cooldowns, modifiers, base line sep. (Strength equivalency points) and build a basis of what will perform better.

Currently the model is pointing at Rage as being the highest dps tree available, with carnage being last, and annihilation being middle to upper end. I dont want to point at any specific mmo. But the general idea is that theory crafting is what helps build the highest yield spec's. As for speculation, I wont deny the fact that speculation plays a part, but a majority of mathematics also works in favor of this.

If all things being equal, of 99.9% uptime on a target, then Rage will have a 10-13% lead on Annihilation, while maintaining a huge 30+ point lead over Carnage.
A few things. First of all, could you post these models you are talking about? Second, do they include the 20% chance or 50% chance for Ataru procs on all melee attacks for a Carnage build? If you don't include the Ataru proc damage, I can see Carnage being far behind, but with it it should be right up there. Third, I think you should change some things in your proposed build. Take the 2 points out of Relentless Fury. You are going to be using Berserk much more often. Put those into Gravity and Undying. Then, I would take the 3 out of Narrowed Hatred, not because it's not awesome, but because I think those 3 points synergize much better if put into capping Enraged Slash and Quick Recovery. You will almost never run out of Rage, meaning instead of using Assault, you are spamming Vicious Slashes after your big Smash crit.

Zandermill's Avatar

12.19.2011 , 10:51 PM | #22
I think the 3% accuracy (or in this case hit) is far better freeing up stats at end game. Free hit is basically free hit. Whats better, in this game system if you push past 100% it's effectively armor penetration, so it scales dramatically upward in how much more damage you can inflict. Ergo it benefits Shii-Cho mastery more.

Accuracy Chance that melee attacks will successfully hit the target. Accuracy over 100% reduces the target's defense.

I can't see how you wouldn't want to bypass as much of your targets defenses as possible? I get the shorter cooldowns, but I think the 3% continues to exponentially grow as your character progresses.

Theoretically we could move the points from Enraged Slash over, but I don't believe that the cooldown lessened outweighs the points in potential rpm (rage per minute) generation of a Marauder.

I'll get around to posting my stuff eventually, however I'm busy leveling, so I'm doing mostly napkin math at work, then posting what I can, when I can. Otherwise a very thorough chart for how things bake down to real numbers will be a while to come.

As it is, I see what you're saying with the synergy, but I'm pushing towards a more armor ignoring build to maximize effective up time of both white swings, and our abilities.

The real problem with Carnage is, it's very similar to a WoW Arms warrior currently. It's great during Gore, but lackluster outside of it. You've got to watch for a Gore cooldown, then dump everything you can during that window, then build up for the next Gore. The Ataru form attacks, are very lackluster, and too fish-esque for a static build. Any time I have to hope and pray for a proc to even out my damage, it's bad times.

Carnage is insanely bursty, don't get me wrong, if your stars align, you can roll face. But it's not good sustainable dps. Execute would need around a 50% proc chance - Massacre needs to be an additional baseline Ataru form proc increase, and Ataru form need's its baseline damage increased by about 20% and then it'll pull ahead, to be our top dps tree.

That's just my two cents. I could be wrong, I may very well be wrong. But it wont be shown until the math is broken down on all three spec's and I just dont have the time to do it in depth. For the moment however, Carnage is a lucky seven build, but the dealer keeps coming up with ones.
Go Sith, or go home.
I was once a Sith Marauder; but then I took an arrow to the knee.

kidbs's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 12:22 AM | #23
What does a rage spec marauder have over a rage spec jugg?

Muckbeast's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 02:58 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by kidbs View Post
What does a rage spec marauder have over a rage spec jugg?
This is something I still really want to know.

The idea of a "simple" straight up PvE DPS spec is very appealing.

But I worry that playing a rage marauder means you're basically a gimpy juggernaut.

SirZorr's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 03:48 AM | #25
A Rage Marauder has 2x lightsabers, a Rage Juggernaut only has one. Which one is the gimpy DPS now?

naitee's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 05:15 AM | #26
How force skill power scale with base stats?

I mean, maybe people think marauder is gimp because anni and carn builds need high end equips and mods to shine...

Maybe force power is more efficient at low levels equips...that's why is the probably the best end game spec at this moment..
~User with poor english lol

Naitress - Sith Marauder

J-Slh's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 10:27 AM | #27
I am quite interested in your opinions, please post more when you get the time. I do hope you can back this up, it would be a good find at least for me, seeing that Rage is the spec I have the least experience in.
<SW:tOR Testa Beter>

A man that doesn't move can't create miracles.

Zandermill's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 11:36 AM | #28
I'm not doing any comparison against the two spec's Juggernaut Vrs Marauder. I'm just Marauder as it's the only thing I am playing at the moment.
As for force power. I'm still working on that. But with it being Christmas time, and my store being busy. I may not really post anything until after New Years. Running a business aint easy lemme tell ya.
As for the basic idea of Juggernaut tree, versus Marauder. It's the exact same tree, with no secondary (weak) offhand damage. A Rage and Vengeance build wouldn't do half bad. You'll be losing secondary damage as you're offhand wont be there anymore. Idealistically what I'd build, just shooting from the hip if I was a Juggernaut rage spec.

Will post more later.
Go Sith, or go home.
I was once a Sith Marauder; but then I took an arrow to the knee.

EssFerret's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 11:50 AM | #29
once there is combat log it will settle this debate.

it seems to me that OP is forgetting about CDs and rage point building. Yes in a world where there is no Rage point building or CDs this build would do amazing DPS but by going force you are using skills that cost a ton of rage and the rage tree doesn't offer enough rage point reduction cost or cool downs on the skills that you need.

Annihilate makes damage all the time, even when building rage points. Plus you get to run Juyo instead of shii-chin which is 7% damage buff on the melee strikes you are using in-between your CDs.

Carnage makes huge spikes, in between building rage points.

Both offer better CD reduction skills than Rage, including a skill in annihilate that will allow you to stack your bleed almost instantly, and a skill in carnage that allows you to have your big rage point builder back 20% faster.

As for Rage spec, OK you can do great crit damage to a group of strong mobs in pve but your role in the group stinks because you are supposed to be single target DPS and Off Tank and all you are doing is spreading yourself thinner and drawing too much aggro. I think a Jug with Rage spec is proper for solo pve and could have a role in the group as long as the healers and dps are doing the job, but you give up everything that the mara should be by taking Rage spec and just gimp yourself in your usefulness.

Zandermill's Avatar

12.20.2011 , 12:25 PM | #30
I actually did use rage as a base line of damage. Rage generation, to usage over 300 seconds. I guess if you guys want to try baseline testing. Take whichever spec you want to play. Find what your DPR is. (Damage per rage) of abilities on Torhead. Use the baseline values they give you. Calculate talents into those baselines, and adjust both cost, as well as damage to find your final DPR per ability.

Next take a scale of about five minutes or 300 seconds. Then take a slice of that chunk, say 30 seconds or ten percent. And figure out what your best DPR rotation would be in that block of time. This includes rage generation moves. This is sans cool downs. Assume that you'll have no misses or blocks. Find your total over those thirty seconds multiply it by ten, then divide by three hundred to get a basic idea of what your dps will be. (This is an optimal situation - it will never happen, but thats what theorycraft is about. The perfect rotation etc)

Obviously they are easier, but more complicated ways to do this. But it's all I'm going into now. If you believe I'm wrong. then no worries. That's why I asked for more input, then just my own. As I'm not a perfect theorycrafter.
Go Sith, or go home.
I was once a Sith Marauder; but then I took an arrow to the knee.