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The Kira return thread


Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
07.02.2019 , 10:59 AM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
I do question the choice to bring Kaliyo in when it seems like there would have been a lot more interesting and less irritating choices. It seems like all that chapter did was to give Koth a possible trigger to leave.
I get that feeling too.
Honnestly Mako could've been a much more interesting choice to give the intel about the overwatch.
Vector could've been a far better choice to recruit in any Alliance with his diplomatic skills and his army of Kiliks, but no, we got Kaliyo instead.

Quote:
I do recall that Darth Hexid mentions something about Kira trying to invade the Spire and failing, so she did know where the PC was being held. In that light it makes even less sense that she would have not tried to connect with the PC after they were freed from carbonite.

In thinking about it IMHO KOTFE or KOTET would have been a perfect choice to incorporate Kira into the story because it was just the Alliance. At that point any PC may have been able to convince Kira to join them because it was not working for the Empire or Republic.

But now you have PCs who may have chosen to be an Empress or Emperor (can't see Kira approving) and some PCs are either back with the Empire or working for them as saboteurs (again, this probably will not impress Kira). IMHO she would now refuse to work with a lot of PCs and would perhaps only really be comfortable joining up with a Republic loyalist JK or JC who made all or mostly LS choices.
There are some confusing things.
Doc say that they stayed together for a few years after the war, untill Scourge went on a hunt because he was obsessed with Vitiate (or something like that), that Kira seemed to know what it was all about and that's after that that Doc joined the colony on Ossus.
So i suppose Kira went on her own to try to find the JK, finally found them and tried to free them, but why did she act alone, and why didn't Lana and Theron try to contact her ? And how and why did T7 end up with Lana ?
I'd guess that if the Outlander is a JK, Theron was probably in contact with their crew, but then why the JK's crew was not a part of the rescue mission, and why is T7 there if the Outlander is not the JK ? (i've too many questions now)

Both Kira and Scourge would've worked in any Alliance, at the very least up to Valkorion's defeat as their goal is to get the Galaxy rid of Vitiate, after that, not sure Kira would've stayed with a DS Commander though. Scourge idk, maybe he would've just decided to go somewhere on his own to enjoy his new mortality.
I don't think Kira would want to follow any character who allied with the Empire, and like you i think she would rather stick with a mostly LS pub allied PC.
Scourge i really don't know though. He clearly doesn't care about the Republic, but he doesn't seem to care all that much about the Empire anymore either, and doesn't seem to have that much respect for his fellow Sith either.
In need of more Arcann, Aric, Torian, Vector, and a lot, lot, lot more Theron.
There's nothing like geting too much Theron

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IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.02.2019 , 11:09 AM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
I get that feeling too.
Honnestly Mako could've been a much more interesting choice to give the intel about the overwatch.
Vector could've been a far better choice to recruit in any Alliance with his diplomatic skills and his army of Kiliks, but no, we got Kaliyo instead.
OMG, Mako would have been perfect for that chapter. Just perfect. She would have been able to slice right into the Overwatch system, could have disrupted the Zakuulan droids, and would have been a 'public enemy' to Zakuul because of it.

Quote:
There are some confusing things.
Doc say that they stayed together for a few years after the war, untill Scourge went on a hunt because he was obsessed with Vitiate (or something like that), that Kira seemed to know what it was all about and that's after that that Doc joined the colony on Ossus.
So i suppose Kira went on her own to try to find the JK, finally found them and tried to free them, but why did she act alone, and why didn't Lana and Theron try to contact her ? And how and why did T7 end up with Lana ?
I'd guess that if the Outlander is a JK, Theron was probably in contact with their crew, but then why the JK's crew was not a part of the rescue mission, and why is T7 there if the Outlander is not the JK ? (i've too many questions now)
I feel like they really slipped up with continuity with a lot of the companions with what Ranos and Hexid said, vs. what other companions have said, vs. the history of the story. Like Nadia not recognizing Lana on Odessen, and DS Jaesa and Lana never seeming to have met before either; that was ridiculous.

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Both Kira and Scourge would've worked in any Alliance, at the very least up to Valkorion's defeat as their goal is to get the Galaxy rid of Vitiate, after that, not sure Kira would've stayed with a DS Commander though. Scourge idk, maybe he would've just decided to go somewhere on his own to enjoy his new mortality.
I don't think Kira would want to follow any character who allied with the Empire, and like you i think she would rather stick with a mostly LS pub allied PC.
Scourge i really don't know though. He clearly doesn't care about the Republic, but he doesn't seem to care all that much about the Empire anymore either, and doesn't seem to have that much respect for his fellow Sith either.
Scourge is contemptuous toward the Sith, but he's also not fond of the Jedi, and I think that's another reason why he would have worked really well in the Alliance. I still think he'd be more inclined to align with an Empire-siding Commander because without Vitiate in the mix, the Jedi will probably have the attitude they usually have toward Sith: "convert to the Jedi, die, or go to jail forever."

It's become a mess, though.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
07.02.2019 , 01:48 PM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
OMG, Mako would have been perfect for that chapter. Just perfect. She would have been able to slice right into the Overwatch system, could have disrupted the Zakuulan droids, and would have been a 'public enemy' to Zakuul because of it.
Yep, that's what i think too.
I think they should've used Mako as some super slicer who was fighting Zakuul in the shadows and helping the Alliance, that would've been nice.

Quote:
I feel like they really slipped up with continuity with a lot of the companions with what Ranos and Hexid said, vs. what other companions have said, vs. the history of the story. Like Nadia not recognizing Lana on Odessen, and DS Jaesa and Lana never seeming to have met before either; that was ridiculous.
Yeah, not that great.
But it's pretty much the same as Shae not reacting to Torian during SoR and then being all like "I guess you two know each other" while kissing Torian in front of all the Mandalorians with a BH romancing him when you played through SoR with this BH and fought against Shae with Torian as your active companion. Or Scourge and Revan not reacting to each other on Yavin (seriously considering Scourge is the only character who personally knows Revan, it would make perfect sense when playing a Jedi to go there with him, but nope, they apparently just don't see each other)...


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Scourge is contemptuous toward the Sith, but he's also not fond of the Jedi, and I think that's another reason why he would have worked really well in the Alliance. I still think he'd be more inclined to align with an Empire-siding Commander because without Vitiate in the mix, the Jedi will probably have the attitude they usually have toward Sith: "convert to the Jedi, die, or go to jail forever."

It's become a mess, though.
Yep, i think he would work well with the Alliance as there are Jedi, Sith, a Mystic and Knights of Zakuul there, and a lot of opportunities to learn more about the Force.
I think so too, but i hope he'd still stay with a Commander who is an ally of the Republic but would rather stay independant if that was an option.
My JK may be mostly LS, but she would rather take Lana and Scourge the way they are and learn from them than try to turn them into Jedi. That's probably why she feels better now with the Alliance than before when she trully saw herself as a Jedi.
I really enjoyed the conversations you could have with Scourge as an open minded LS JK, where they both learn from the other, and i'd really like to be able to get that relationship back.
In need of more Arcann, Aric, Torian, Vector, and a lot, lot, lot more Theron.
There's nothing like geting too much Theron

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Damask_Rose's Avatar


Damask_Rose
07.02.2019 , 04:13 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
I feel like they really slipped up with continuity with a lot of the companions with what Ranos and Hexid said, vs. what other companions have said, vs. the history of the story. Like Nadia not recognizing Lana on Odessen, and DS Jaesa and Lana never seeming to have met before either; that was ridiculous.
My theory is that they had great plans for other companions until KotFE went over like a lead balloon and they cut the remaining story down to a bare minimum. They were saving the best for last, so we got stuck with Kaliyo instead of anyone good and the good ones got the shaft.

And as for continuity, well, Charles, bless his heart, doesn't strike me as a details person and there doesn't seem to be anyone else on the writing team double checking things.
My name is Milind. I checked it again and can confirm you there is no bug with any companion in the game.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.02.2019 , 04:29 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
My theory is that they had great plans for other companions until KotFE went over like a lead balloon and they cut the remaining story down to a bare minimum. They were saving the best for last, so we got stuck with Kaliyo instead of anyone good and the good ones got the shaft.

And as for continuity, well, Charles, bless his heart, doesn't strike me as a details person and there doesn't seem to be anyone else on the writing team double checking things.
I think you're correct on both counts (although I think Vette and Torian would both count as beloved companions). We know how much KOTET was shaved down and that there was that third season planned, and I bet there were companion returns scattered throughout that lost material. So they had to scramble and write those 'two minute wonders' instead, and with a lack of funding, any fact checkers/continuity editors probably went right by the wayside.

commanderwar's Avatar


commanderwar
07.02.2019 , 05:08 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
My theory is that they had great plans for other companions until KotFE went over like a lead balloon and they cut the remaining story down to a bare minimum. They were saving the best for last, so we got stuck with Kaliyo instead of anyone good and the good ones got the shaft.

And as for continuity, well, Charles, bless his heart, doesn't strike me as a details person and there doesn't seem to be anyone else on the writing team double checking things.
As for the Companions not knowing who Lana is, it's very unlikely it was unintentional for the story continuity IMO, I think the writing team decided to go with the route that Companions have nothing to do with Shadow Of Revan story wise (except some class stories), meaning they were off on your ship or somewhere else. I mean it makes more sense than the companions being their and saying nothing, like scourge, ect.. or cheating on your LI right in front of them and saying nothing IMO.
here's my refer a friend link
http://www.swtor.com/r/QWYrwx

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.02.2019 , 05:46 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by commanderwar View Post
As for the Companions not knowing who Lana is, it's very unlikely it was unintentional for the story continuity IMO, I think the writing team decided to go with the route that Companions have nothing to do with Shadow Of Revan story wise (except some class stories), meaning they were off on your ship or somewhere else. I mean it makes more sense than the companions being their and saying nothing, like scourge, ect.. or cheating on your LI right in front of them and saying nothing IMO.
But the companions are all shown in the opening cut scene of SoR, going to Rishi with you. There are a few references to them being on Rishi (ie, Garza mentions that ALL of Havoc Squad is there, and a SI brings Talos Drelik on their personal mission.

All the romanceable female and male companions also have color commentary all over Rishi and Yavin 4.

And at least one companion (Raina Temple) directly references Lana by name and knows who she is in the letter she writes at the beginning of KOTFE.

Plus, Lana's supposed to have been looking for your companions, so for her not to recognize them is weird, even if they somehow didn't know her.

I think the cheating is just something they chose to overlook, because it's interesting that married characters never talk about that at any time they're having their SoR or Makeb flings.

There are so many continuity lapses that I do personally think they were just careless. Like some of the companions who were hyperaware in the class stories suddenly not realizing the PC is the new leader of the Eternal Fleet (Andronikos) or DS Jaesa's completely irrational belief that the PC was deliberately hiding from her to become powerful.

Or how Ranos and Hexid magically had intel on every single Force sensitive companion in the game, but the Alliance's supposedly formidable information gathering didn't.

MikeCobalt's Avatar


MikeCobalt
07.02.2019 , 08:05 PM | #98
Having the core companions returning and rejoining players that have chosen to change alignments same as they did during the respective class stories is the same as calling them "Meat Puppets" (Not Meat, CGI ). Meat Puppet is generally considered a derogatory term for actors in show business. Think of Mark Hamill and "Lukes" past then Disney comes along and effectively changes everything about that character (40+ years worth); didn't matter what anybody said only what Disney wanted.

Consider now Kira, Aric, Elara, Corso, Xalek, Khem or Pierce and many others. Either BW considers them "Meat Puppets" with no personalities at all (Considered by players and MMO review sites as one of SWTORs best facets) or BioWare intends for more Comp's to separate themselves "From our Players" (again) this time not due to BW limitations but because the companions nolonger want to be.. companions (we drove away our own companions this time, usually the ones liked most). None of this seems particularly attractive story wise or down the road; Another Corner BW and Zakuul created that's going to be difficult to get out of without Casualties.
https://imgur.com/SnT8kS3

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
07.03.2019 , 09:32 PM | #99
I suppose I could have added the standard "Haters get your own thread" but people tend to ignore those.

Anyway, yeah the continuity issue of the companions knowing Lana is... not ideal. If I wanted to REALLY give the writers the benefit of the doubt, it's possible they wrote the reunions deliberately ambiguously to account for players having the choice whether to use them in SoR or not. The vanilla companions could all have been in the same room as Lana and Theron, but also they never directly interact. I guess the idea is that even in the best of circumstances, they don't really remember them that well.

Nadia's "That lady was a Sith, right?" could be maybe conceivably sort of interpreted as either having just met her, or her saying "from what I remember from all those years ago, she was a Sith."

Jaesa's "So that's the famous Lana Beniko" is kind of hard to explain too, but maybe she could mean "So that's what Lana is like in a fight."

Theron had a similar thing back in Anarchy in Paradise because he says to Agents "She was part of your crew, right?" when Kaliyo appears. That sort of sounds like he kind of remembers, but isn't sure.

I think another concern would be whether there is going to be continuity between what we've learned about her already and what we learn when we see her. In Nadia's case Hexid and Ranos were consistent with what they told the Jedi Consular, and with what Nadia said in her romance letter. But there was never any explanation for why Nadia switched gears from trying to find you to cutting herself off from the rest of the galaxy and helping the Jedi Colony on Ossus. So in Kira's case, we know she tried to save the Jedi Knight before Lana did. But we know before that she thought they were dead. So how did she learn they were alive? What caused her inability to sense the Knight in the force? What happened exactly with Vaylin and her team?

In retrospect, these questions to suggest it would be better to tie her specifically into the Knight's story, because otherwise her actions would be less specific to her character would actually do.

Unfortunately, Charles seemed to frame the issue of whether Kira and Scourge get a big part of the story as whether or not their reunion is specifically tied to the Jedi Knight story or not. Meaning, if Kira has a big part in Onslaught and beyond it would seem that she'd need to have some generic role that potentially another person could fit, rather than something uniquely relevant to her character, which you'd need to have played the Jedi Knight story to understand.

As far as Kira and Scourge's role in the story. As I said earlier in the thread, even with the Valkorion story basically concluded, there are ways to tie them into it after the fact. But that would only account for what they've been doing up until the end of KOTET. And frankly, I think they need to tie them into that story, he was a vital part of their stories. It would make perfect sense to me that there was some key step that Scourge and Kira had to do to help defeat the Emperor while the Outlander finished him off elsewhere. We never really saw a conclusion to questions like the Purpose of the Children of the Emperor or the role of the Emperor's original Pureblood body. Maybe it could be related to one or both of them.

As far as what they will do afterward, well, I honestly have no idea what Scourge would want to do. I expect even he wouldn't have really thought about it, given how much he was dedicated to nothing but stopping the Emperor.

Kira hasn't been obsessed with Vitiate for 300 years, so she probably already has other concerns about the Republic/Empire War. I don't see any version of events where she would support someone who is an enemy of the Republic.

In terms of who can get them, obviously the Jedi Knight should be able to use them. But it wouldn't make sense for her to join any Outlanders from the Empire. I could see her theoretically joining a LS Consular, Trooper or Smuggler, but she'd have no history with any of them. Similarly, Scourge would unlikely to join any other Republic class, and while he might not object to joining an Imperial, he'd have no personal connection to any of them. I mean, I guess he's very tangentially related to the Warrior in that they both used to have the same job.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
07.18.2019 , 07:21 PM | #100
OK so now that the "Mysterious Observers" have appeared on Odessen, the common theory is that they are Scourge and Kira.

Assuming this is the case, I have some strong mixed emotions. The appear for everyone, all 8 classes, so that means if it's them we will get to interact with them no matter what class or background we have.

It's exciting because that means there's a bigger chance we get to see them have a meaty role. It does raise all sorts of other concerns though.

First, I hope they properly explain where they've been in a way that ties back into their backstory. Even if they weren't involved with the Alliance itself, there must be a way to tie them into the defeat of Vitate in some way, especially after what Hexid suggested that Scourge was doing. It would be pretty stupid otherwise.

Charles did say that the idea he'd initially imagined for their whereabouts these last few years was specifically tied to the Jedi Knight story. I don't know if he's abandoned that entirely or wanted to make the available to other classes too. I mean, every other class eventually came to have Vitiate/Valkorion as their main enemy too, so filling in the Kira/Scourge part of his backstory for the other Outlanders shouldn't be too out of place.

Most importantly, I hope they are worked into the story in a way that isn't going to ruin their characters. I have no idea what Scourge would want to do after after the final defeat of Vitiate, but Kira being willing to fight for the Empire against the Jedi would basically be character assassination.

As such, I don't think my diehard Imperial loyalists would want to have her around. My Jedi Knight would want her back more than anything, but she certainly wouldn't fit everyone to the same extent. So I really hope that it's not the case that the only way she can have a significant reunion is by forcing her into a (very generic or out of character) role she is ill suited to.