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Return Veteran's Edge stacks to NIM Raids

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Return Veteran's Edge stacks to NIM Raids

FerkWork's Avatar


FerkWork
02.20.2020 , 06:54 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Anyaka_Jedi View Post
When you say pug... Some select group from a select discord? Or some regular Joe's from fleet...
Pug= pick up group. People from various discords of course as you said. NiM was never meant to be pugged by just regular joes/ anyone from random from fleets with zero coordination and little skill, that would be silly and defeat the purpose of NiM as thatís what Group finder is for those groups. You donít see Mythic raids pugged by randoms in Boralus and those fail epically so why should it be different here. My point is If a competent group of people who normally donít play together can coordinate to kill a bosses then yes itís doable, and my point is that people saying NiM TFB especially DG is an impossible heal check are just wrong. What your average Joe can do is be on a team of average Joeís and if they decide they want to be better put it in the work like we all did to improve. Itís going to take a lot more effort than experienced people but if they keep grinding at itís doable if they are serious about NiM raiding and the dedication needed to understanding it.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
02.20.2020 , 07:52 AM | #82
DOES NO ONE THINK OF THE BOSSES.

OF KEPHESS

THEY DESERVE THE DIGNITY OF A MODE WHERE THEY ARE STRONG AGAIN.
Hotwired

Niman, Tomb of Freedon Nadd, The Red Eclipse, Darth Malgus

2011 - The Immortals, The Lumberjacks, Nano, Not Good Enough, Disciples of Babylon, Salt Miners - 2018

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
02.20.2020 , 09:50 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by chipequssmlgpro View Post
I mean, you do realize anything outside of your main raiding group is considered a pug, right? It doesn't matter if it's a select discord or fleet, it's a group of people that don't usually play with eachother, hence the name 'pug'... That's a weak attempt at showing that no VE raids are hard.
Actually, it does matter. In fact, it matters a lot, when you're discussing running NiM, or it's equivalent anywhere. Hardcore raiding is a thing, it's a thing that's industry wide, and it's a thing that has players that don't do anything else once they get to where they can do it. Pulling a party for an op from a raider discord would be the same thing as pulling a party from your guild. Can you pick that guy that hasn't done it before? Sure. If you have a choice, are you going to? Nope, not if it's going to interfere with your completion. This is a weak attempt to justify "but you shouldn't have an easier time of it than I did".

Again, I agree, it should be hard, and to that end, in any content where set bonuses and tacticals weren't a thing, they should be disabled, and the required gear score for the raid when it was made should be where you're bolstered to, so that we can separate the wheat from the chaff. I mean, you shouldn't be able to do it any easier than I did when I did it, right? This is the "pet peeve" on trial here, right? "But stacks make it easier for them, and that shouldn't be a thing". I don't have a dog in this fight. I quit raiding before some of the people posting here even started raiding, presumably. But I really don't care how someone went about getting their completions. With VE, w/out VE, taking full advantage of set and tactical bonuses, I don't care. But if we're going to pick the "but it's too easy for x now, and it shouldn't be", then we need to be removing all advantages, not just the ones that suit one argument or the other.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
02.20.2020 , 09:54 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
DOES NO ONE THINK OF THE BOSSES.

OF KEPHESS

THEY DESERVE THE DIGNITY OF A MODE WHERE THEY ARE STRONG AGAIN.
🤔🤔 This is a convincing argument, but I won't be fully convinced until Kephess drops a Kephess mount.
-Beruhl (ง︡'-'︠)ง

8 pugs and a grophet i do what i want can i borrow a stim?
Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.

chipequssmlgpro's Avatar


chipequssmlgpro
02.20.2020 , 10:41 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Actually, it does matter. In fact, it matters a lot, when you're discussing running NiM, or it's equivalent anywhere. Hardcore raiding is a thing, it's a thing that's industry wide, and it's a thing that has players that don't do anything else once they get to where they can do it. Pulling a party for an op from a raider discord would be the same thing as pulling a party from your guild. Can you pick that guy that hasn't done it before? Sure. If you have a choice, are you going to? Nope, not if it's going to interfere with your completion. This is a weak attempt to justify "but you shouldn't have an easier time of it than I did".

Again, I agree, it should be hard, and to that end, in any content where set bonuses and tacticals weren't a thing, they should be disabled, and the required gear score for the raid when it was made should be where you're bolstered to, so that we can separate the wheat from the chaff. I mean, you shouldn't be able to do it any easier than I did when I did it, right? This is the "pet peeve" on trial here, right? "But stacks make it easier for them, and that shouldn't be a thing". I don't have a dog in this fight. I quit raiding before some of the people posting here even started raiding, presumably. But I really don't care how someone went about getting their completions. With VE, w/out VE, taking full advantage of set and tactical bonuses, I don't care. But if we're going to pick the "but it's too easy for x now, and it shouldn't be", then we need to be removing all advantages, not just the ones that suit one argument or the other.
So, if you quit, a long time ago, why do you assume what is hard and what isn't? Have you tried raids as they were in 5.10, or 6.0 with 258s, or VE stacks? Or have you tried Gods Nightmare by any chance, when they came out in 5.10 which was by far the hardest raid they ever invented in this game? Why are you posting in this thread if you've got no clue how raids are right now? If you're an OG raider who liked challenges, you'd be pleasantly surprised about how good raids feel right now. But no, you choose to listen to people on the forums who probably didn't even spend 2 hours in a raid without VE stacks.

Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Can you pick that guy that hasn't done it before? Sure. If you have a choice, are you going to? Nope, not if it's going to interfere with your completion. This is a weak attempt to justify "but you shouldn't have an easier time of it than I did".
Why would you bring in someone inexperienced in a group? Of course you want to have the raid you're doing to go as smooth as possible. Especially if everyone has cleared it several times before and is only looking for a nice time. This kind of discussion have been going around for years in every single MMO out there. People have progressed it and spent time doing so, why bring in someone who haven't? There have been several discords and such where different groups of people with various experienced did both hm and nim together.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
02.20.2020 , 10:59 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by chipequssmlgpro View Post
So, if you quit, a long time ago, why do you assume what is hard and what isn't? Have you tried raids as they were in 5.10, or 6.0 with 258s, or VE stacks? Or have you tried Gods Nightmare by any chance, when they came out in 5.10 which was by far the hardest raid they ever invented in this game? Why are you posting in this thread if you've got no clue how raids are right now? If you're an OG raider who liked challenges, you'd be pleasantly surprised about how good raids feel right now. But no, you choose to listen to people on the forums who probably didn't even spend 2 hours in a raid without VE stacks.
Because I can't stand the hypocrisy of "but it's easier for them" all while taking full advantage of other mechanics player side that make it easier now. So my argument is the same as yours, isn't it? It shouldn't be any easier for you than it was for me. It seems like you're somewhat resistant to that, and I have to wonder, why is that? No need to answer, it's rhetorical, because I already know why that is: "It's a slap in the face that someone might have an easier time than I did".

Quote:
Why would you bring in someone inexperienced in a group? Of course you want to have the raid you're doing to go as smooth as possible. Especially if everyone has cleared it several times before and is only looking for a nice time. This kind of discussion have been going around for years in every single MMO out there. People have progressed it and spent time doing so, why bring in someone who haven't? There have been several discords and such where different groups of people with various experienced did both hm and nim together.
So that they can learn the raids, and become a member? How experienced were you in your first raid? How many times did your errors wipe a group? How many times do you suppose the vets in that group discussed kicking you? How many times were you rejected, or kicked? Then we get to the meat of the issue, your definition of PuG for a raid is very different from the traditional meaning. You're effectively PuGing from your guild, from a group of players that you know already know the raid, and all the mechanics. Guess what, I'm down with that, in fact, I used to do the same thing, but let's not pretend it's a PuG in the traditional sense, because it's not. You even clarify it in your opening statement for this paragraph. So no, people aren't doing NiM clears with PuG groups, they're doing them with their friend's list, effectively, of players that know the content. Again, that's great, when you have the pool to pull from, you should definitely do it, but it's not a PuG.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Ollmich's Avatar


Ollmich
02.20.2020 , 11:10 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by dready_tv View Post
It did not come out of nowhere. It was tested on PTS by people with high experience & knowledge of the game regarding high end raiding. Including that it was planned to get into the game anyway so the result would still be the same, now it just happened to enter the game a bit earlier than expected..boohoo
You can express and defend your opinion all you want but donít try to tweak the facts so they fit your narrative.

It was a ninja change. They didnít communicate on it before it made its way to live servers. They never announced it the way they advertised their new stronghold. Musco didnít put a thread on PTS forums dedicated to this subject. I havenít seen a single thread on forums started by players where changes to nims were discussed. Should we test all content this game has on PTS searching for critical changes they intend to make and decided not to talk about?

Then all of a sudden it turns out that some of the players were aware of the change. Hey, look, youíre not a hardcore raider who cleared old nims 153458 times so your opinion is irrelevant. Yep, we opened a can of worms when made old nims accessible to more raiders but we donít want to bear responsibility for it.

Iíd like to believe Musco when he sais that it's his own fault but I canít. Itís not the first time BWA comes up with a (potentially) unpopular change and refuses to speak of it before it is implemented. Think of the mods tied to certain types of shells in 5.10 for instance.

They screwed up and yet again pissed off a portion of their playerbase in favour of another portion. It was a douche move. It's not how things should be done. Period.

P.S. If anything, stackers and no-stackers shouldnít ever have this discussion. It could be avoided if BWA bothered to scale content to lvl 75 in the first place.

Aulus_Claudius's Avatar


Aulus_Claudius
02.20.2020 , 07:58 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Ollmich View Post
If anything, stackers and no-stackers shouldnít ever have this discussion. It could be avoided if BWA bothered to scale content to lvl 75 in the first place.
Agree. What's more, I don't even see a real discussion. There are two camps just arguing completely past one another about two different things.

No-stackers: Want NiM content to be hard again. For them, it's about what they want from the game in an objective sense, detached from the people and community playing it. Arguments are about the idea behind what NiM is supposed to be and how it was when it came out.

Stackers: Want NiM to be played. For them, it's about the community that's developed around NiM and the accessibility for people who want to get into NiM and learn the mechanics without facing overly-daunting DPS and HPS checks. Many in this camp actually enjoy the harder content without stacks, but for them it's more important that they have other people to play with at all and can raid more than just 2-3 evenings per week with their main group.

I see both sides, and honestly want both. No stacks for my raid group, stacks for pugs and people learning the mechanics with slightly less-daunting DPS and HPS checks, or better yet just scaling them up to 75. That the game badly needs a major balance patch and actually needed it before no-stack NiM goes without saying, but offering both stack and no-stack options would be an acceptable solution, I think, and faster than scaling to 75. Then they can take their time to get the balancing right and consider scaling the content up for the next major patch.

FerkWork's Avatar


FerkWork
02.20.2020 , 11:00 PM | #89
If they did bump to 75, I hope everyone bought new augments for all their toons as they will be needed. Also, if they did raise to 75 and make it as hard as without stacks, will people still complain or will they accept like they are saying if itís raised to 75? Cause ironically it will be at the very least more expensive to do the legacy raids.

Ollmich's Avatar


Ollmich
02.21.2020 , 05:48 AM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by FerkWork View Post
If they did bump to 75, I hope everyone bought new augments for all their toons as they will be needed. Also, if they did raise to 75 and make it as hard as without stacks, will people still complain or will they accept like they are saying if itís raised to 75? Cause ironically it will be at the very least more expensive to do the legacy raids.
Of course it wouldnít satisfy everyone. On the other hand, we would have more control over our stats, could trade one for another in certain encounters, wouldnít be forced to use ****** relics, etc. Nim crystals would be a thing (Iím not sure if they work in scaled content and havenít seen any reports about it). Or people would just wait for new augments and tiers of gear knowing that itíll help them to clear content they couldnít handle before.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aulus_Claudius View Post
I see both sides, and honestly want both. No stacks for my raid group, stacks for pugs and people learning the mechanics with slightly less-daunting DPS and HPS checks, or better yet just scaling them up to 75. That the game badly needs a major balance patch and actually needed it before no-stack NiM goes without saying, but offering both stack and no-stack options would be an acceptable solution, I think, and faster than scaling to 75. Then they can take their time to get the balancing right and consider scaling the content up for the next major patch.
Yeah, I wouldnít mind nims having stack and no-stack options. Raids with stacks could become a good training ground since the gap between hms and nims is now bigger than ever. Removing stacks from hms won't solve the problem because in 5.x. the difference was huge as well. They can gate chievos and shinies behind the harder option, or add new ones for completing it.