Hi everyone,

 

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

 

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say....]

As the starter of this thread, thankyou for that response, thats the response I was hoping for

I am also thankful that you identified the cause of the discrepency and grateful you have learnt from this.

I want to add that I understand the comment about you not rushing a solution to maintain the "integrity" of the market vs ingame, as you are aware once you release something on the Cartel market any form of rollback on said items is very sensitive matter.

Beware the content that you dont show on PTR, like cartel market items and ingame events... cause surprising live server with these things, means you dont spot the pink elephants and little gremlins. Please be mindful of this and do your internal testing "better" on stuff you aint testing in PTR.

Also, can we see better "cartel market" preview pages / release pages on the official site for the Cartel Packs, items... including full visuals on all the items. Usually have to find out about what is in a cartel pack from darthhater or dulfy before I decide if I will buy anything.

I am sorry, but in my Opinion it is not Pay 2 win, it is a single player issue. You get, 2 BH comms from the weekly.

This means that in 10 weeks the players who paid for the items (I did) will have a piece on BH gear. I can and have geared multiple toons far faster than that and would not even bother to do all that for 2 extra comms a week when gearing a new character.

I am sorry, but in my Opinion it is not Pay 2 win, it is a single player issue. You get, 2 BH comms from the weekly.

 

This means that in 10 weeks the players who paid for the items (I did) will have a piece on BH gear. I can and have geared multiple toons far faster than that and would not even bother to do all that for 2 extra comms a week when gearing a new character.

Sorry - edit: rubbing sleep out of my eyes...

Yeah this is the crux of the issue for me as well.

Sorry - edit: running sleep out of my eyes...

 

Yeah this is the crux of the issue for me as well.

Why would I not be? It is quite obviously not pay to win and I had a ton of CCs from my sub/CE?

Edit: as you edited just as I typed and I did not realise. Im confused now!

Why would I not be? It is quite obviously not pay to win and I had a ton of CCs from my sub/CE?

 

Edit as you edited as I typed. Im confused now!

lol. me too. Time I got out of this thread I think.

Ok, after giving these things another try last night and upgrading my ship a bit more, I have a few tips for anyone who's considering doing these:

-Buy the better shields

-Buy the better ship armor

-Buy the better beam generator

-BUY THE MISSILES. Probably biggest tip here.

Those missiles are probably the biggest thing that made this easier for me last night. What used to take a ton of missiles now takes one or two. If the other missile pod upgrades slowly ramped up missile damage, it probably wouldn't have seemed so skewed, but I think this one doubles the missile damage which makes a massive difference.

I've managed to do... I think all but one or two of the missions now, when before I only managed one, maybe two missions. I would seriously recommend to Bioware looking at the missile damage regarding pre-Grade 7 missile pods and slowly increasing the damage on them, or at least boosting base missile damage a tiny bit for Grade 6 or something.

I think all I'm missing now is the new regenerator, the laser cannons, and the non-power diverter items. To say these things make a difference is an understatement.

I've been playing for about a year and I'm still having a blast but I'd unequivocally drop this game if P2W items went on the market. I'm not one for idle statements as I always found those "I'm quitting the game QQ" threads annoying and meaningless as those folks never actually quit. This issue is simply a clear line in sand for me.

 

Mr Schubert's response was either poorly worded or intentionally ambiguous(to leave the door open) and is therefore troubling. Rather than calm the customer base he added more fuel to the fire. Unless he comes out and makes a flat out promise of no P2W items ever in any way shape or form, all indications are that this space mission thing was meant to test the waters and this dev response is a just a clumsy about-face. Apologies if this sounds paranoid or overly suspicious.

That's exactly what I read into it too.

Also, as soon as I saw the ship gear in the cartel market, I thought it was a way to test the waters, push the boundaries to see if the community would let them get away with it or if they'd be suffering for it (they did the same with the +41 stat, level 10 crystals and the community basically rolled over for that one so they needed to push further this time).

I am sorry, but in my Opinion it is not Pay 2 win, it is a single player issue. You get, 2 BH comms from the weekly.

 

This means that in 10 weeks the players who paid for the items (I did) will have a piece on BH gear. I can and have geared multiple toons far faster than that and would not even bother to do all that for 2 extra comms a week when gearing a new character.

It's unsurprising that players that pay for P2W will like P2W.

That's fair enough, mostly people don't like P2W however, and the principle it sets head the game down a rocky path to destruction.

 

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

So you're waiting for these packs to be useless to fix the issue and get a lot of money with cartel shop... Do it or do not, there is no soon. Noone will believe you anymore.

So you're waiting for these packs to be useless to fix the issue and get a lot of money with cartel shop... Do it or do not, there is no soon. Noone will believe you anymore.

talk for you

I don't get some of these people defending the angle that this is okay for these reasons:

 

1) It's not Pay To Win because you're not actually winning.

If they sold top end PvP gear on the CC Market, it doesn't guarantee you'll win right? In fact, you could end up losing every time you set foot in a WZ, but I'm pretty sure most people would consider this P2W as you're basically buying gear that usually takes in-game effort to obtain (effort by PvP'ing, effort to obtain the crafting mats, effort to buy items off the GTN by obtaining the credits necessary).

 

2) It's not Pay to Win because you're not directly competing against anyone

If they didn't sell PvP gear, but sold PvE gear, that's not directly competing against someone else. You're grouped with other people in a combined effort to down a scripted AI boss. You can say you're competing against others for "Server 1st" or "World 1st", but all this gear does is help you to down content faster. But that's exactly what the ship upgrades do. They help you complete those new missions faster and more easily which enables you to obtain credits and commendations.

 

3) It's a mini-game so doesn't impact anything else in the game

Please see by last item in #2. Because you obtain credits, comms that can buy crafting mats via the boxes, and BH comms for doing weekly quests you are now being rewarded with things beyond the scope of the mini-game... and because those new ship upgrades help you do it faster and more easily... it boils down to the fact that you're buying upgrades that help you obtain gear faster and more easily.

 

4) What does it matter to you?

Because buying gear with real life money circumvents the spirit of the MMO community. Before the CC Market everyone was obtaining their gear by effort in the game. Whether they spent time by raiding, doing Daily and Weekly Missions, doing quests to earn in-game credits to then buy the mats and gear, doing the space missions to earn comms to obtain crafting mats... all of these systems are in place meaning that the person is putting their effort into this game and time in this game.

 

When someone opens up their wallet, whips out their credit card, and buys those items on the Market they circumvent any in-game effort. They are buying their way to end-game items w/out making any in-game effort. That is at the very heart of Pay To Win.

^QFT ... This.

This to me is thinking on the right direction. I may not agree with everything you write, but I can sink my teeth on this one.

 

1) I don't see anything wrong with it other than perhaps diluting some of the achievement of obtaining new gear. I would add some sort of legacy unlock ( such as at least one character 50 has completed the operation/boss where such item is normally obtained) and/or a time gap ( only available X weeks after the original item was released).

 

2) Personally, this may be a tad far but still on the right direction. I would add (my opinion) a reasonable time gap, some sort of a quota/quantity limit, and maybe ( subject to debate) a reasonably high cost.

 

Again, great thoughts though.

That's what I was thinking, and don't mind your additions at all. I actually was thinking about a time lock - when new gear is released in game, make it only available in game for a few months before releasing it to the store.

My way of thinking is that one of the things I enjoy about playing RPGs is being able to deck out my toons the way I want (cosmetically speaking). Now that SWTOR is F2P, the bulk of the income will be coming from the CM, so if we want this game to survive (by making sure it stays profitable enough for EA not to cut the cord), then we need to make sure there is stuff in there that people are willing to pay for. The past few years have shown that cosmetic items are the boon for Cash Shops. BW also said that they want to make the Legacy system more viable. Here is the perfect opportunity to do both.

In my way of thinking, I get the most enjoyment out of games that offer different options on how to play content and obtain items:

1) Normal Gameplay

2) Buying items via in game currency

3) Cash Shop

A game with all three of those options for any particular piece of virtual item allows me the freedom to be able to enjoy the game irrespective of how much money I have in my wallet at the time or how much time I have to play at any particular point.

This way, by having both in game items as well as unique looking items available via the Cash Shop, we have the start of something that will allow players to deck out their toons the way they like the best, but still maintain some semblance of accomplishment for the in game achievements. Personally, I see no reason why someone who has at least one level 50 toon and completed all current content on that toon should not be able to get shortcuts to gearing up any alts they have - isn't saving time leveling alts one of the very purposes of the Legacy system to begin with? Why shouldn't gearing up alts be a part of that?

BJ

Usually an topic such as this will bring out different reactions from people. I find that this reaction is strongly motivated by their current status in RL. Let me explain (these are only exemples):

Player one has low income but tons of time to play a game. He can be a student, unemployed or many other things, what it comes down to is in RL he does not have alot of shiny, usually no sports cars to flash etc. Player one has no one that dpends on him RL such as elderly parents or kids... So you logically player one will be able to spend alot of time playing, he will compensate for is lack on RL shiny with awsome toons, fully geared, he yawns during nightmare modes... Player one might be at the lower end in RL but ingame hes a star.

Player two has been around usually for a longuer period, he still plays video games when he gets the time, he has people that depned on him, a partner, kids or whatever. He would like to play more but if he did he would loose parts of his RL and would have to let down some of his responsabilities. When that guy logs on, its for one or two hours, before the wife home or he has to pick up the kids. His toons are poor, mostly geared in green, he does not know the flavor of the month on the market and grinding would take so long he would get to enjoy the fruits of his labors in months when the same fruits would probably be irrelevant.

These are extremes, but I made them to illustrate my point.

When you introduce a cash shop, well player one will be in an uproar, how dare they? They take away his only edge in life, how come people would pay for what he can get for free? Why does all his hours of play dont set him apart. He does not want a "pay to win", he wants a "time/grind to win".

Player two on the other hand wont understand why this guy is screaming because he spent the equivalent of a starbucks visit on some starship? Player two thinks player one is an ingame elitist, he got booted out of a raid because he did not know what the hell was going on. Player one thinks player two is a RL elitist that throws his money around and ridicules the small amounts spent on subscriptions and such.

These are just sterotypes, and most people are in between those. I think its interesting to see that players find "causes" to fight about but in reality they are only trying to defend their advantages, everyone wants to win and everyone wants the winning to be achieve by what they can do best.

I personally want to be player 3: A millionaire who pays and grinds and has it all... ;P

Its not pay to win since you still have to do the missions and meet all the objectives successfully. Its more like pay to not grind countless hours to get the gear. I support not grinding! Nobody has time for that

I think you're missing the point. BECAUSE of the difficulty of the content, the new tier of gear is basically a gate to even having a chance at beating it. Subscribers were told that we would never be charged for content...

Yet here subscribers are given an option, grind for 12 weeks to get a full set of gear so you have a chance

Or pay $15

These are not two equal options. The space missions shouldn't be so gated, you should be able to complete them WITH THE CURRENT TIER OF GEAR.

Imagine if they added a new tier of gear that had twice the stats of Dread Guard and the only way to get it was to spend 500 BH comms per piece or buy it for $1 a piece, then they tweaked all the FP's so that the bosses had twice as much health and did twice as much damage. There'd be no way you could beat them without the new gear, but it would take you weeks of grinding to play the only new content they're giving you.

I love this thread!

 

But...

 

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

 

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.

This was an excellent point. Something to think about.

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.

That SWTOR has a bad version of F2P isn't a P2W issue, F2Pers are less equal certainly, but the only way to balance that is to do away with subscibers altogether and move to a 100% Cashshop system.

Which may no bad thing for current subscribers as they may well get much better deal for their $15 a month.

This was an excellent point. Something to think about.

But the subscribers will still have to pay a fee to use a purple-quality item should they not pay a monthly fee anymore, while the freebie player has to pay one fee one time to have permanent access to purple equipment on that one character. Literally everything the freebie players can buy with a one-time purchase, the subscribers keep paying a fee to have access to. The only exceptions to this rule, right now, are the credit limits, the ability to unlock Legacy things with credits beyond a certain point, and character slots (at least, until you can buy those on the shop.) Oh, and space / operation / flashpoint / PvP weekly amounts.

That's it. It's starting to remind me of Champions Online after a certain point, where the only benefits to having a subscription were freeform power selection and the ability to color your powers whatever color you wanted. They then sold the freeform power selection slots in the cash shop, making a subscriber pretty much nothing special beyond getting maybe $5 back in points every month for their constant $15 monthly investment. Really, unless you had a lifetime from when they offered it, there's no real benefit to subscribing there - and as much as I hate to say it, I can see this game starting to veer off in that direction.

Hopefully, this is just a minor swerve in the road and they correct it. I don't want to drop another game I like to play because I feel like I'm paying to be raked over the coals.

I love this thread!

 

But...

 

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

 

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.

This is an example of Hyperbole.

You are flat out WRONG.

This is a game. It has a rule set and conditions for victory. The game ORIGINALLY was ONLY intended to be a SUBSCRIPTION game. The rule set and conditions for victory and "features" to abide by said rule set to achieve said victories were provided as a "service" for the price of the subscription. Ergo the value of those features is set at the price of the subscription.

To say that subscribers are pay to win is a fallacy since the original intent was for customers to subscribe and the features provided were given as a service for the price of the subscription.

With the advent of F2P/Freemium being applied to what was solely a subscription game, it is the players who pay a la cart, or pay nothing, that if offered everything that a subscriber has, would be diminising the value of what subscribers are paying to play SWTOR.

If you want all the features of a subscriber, you have only one option: SUBSCRIBE.

This is a penalty model for a reason; EAware wants you to subscribe.

This is also ironic for two reasons, that you can't see this, and that EAware doesn't understand that we see through their spin on why they went free to play in the first place.

Again, your view is scewed by the culture of the day that says "everyone is special therefore eveyone must have everything equally". This view is also wrong. In a world were "everyone is special", no one is. In a world where everyone is "given everything" ambition dies and mediocrity becomes the "spice of the day". That world is bland. I want to live in a world with "bold colors". I want my games to be same way.

Ok now you are starting to sound like a whiny kid here. Not going to do this with you. I've already said that I think they should be craftable, but what you seem to want is to corner the market and subject the rest of us to your crafting, your prices without any other option. That's never going to happen as it is little more then out of the frying pan into the fire.

 

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't like mindless grinding, day after day doing the same mind numbing thing. That's not fun to me. Fun is playing the game as I choose as my time permits. That would be crafting, space missions, raiding, leveling. What you seem to be saying is that I should play according to your desires. My fifteen a month, your choice of how I play?

 

 

 

The economy is still robust enough that I'm still selling my crafted and farmed items as much as I was before the patch. I have all the crafters including cybertech. Heck, I'm still selling grade two and four ship upgrades, mods, mats, weapons, armor, hilts. I've seen no difference. The economy issue seems to be a red herring argument.

First you don't have to buy "my" items at "my" price there are other crafters that have acess to much more mats than I do which over time will drive the price down. See supply and demand. I'm not trying to corner the market, just play the game how I want, what kind of one way street is that!? Plus there is another way to get the items rather than fleet come, wait a little while and buy them off the gtn as more and more people earn extra fleet come and supply extra parts to the community.

I am not saying you shouldn't get to play the way you want. What I am getting at is, because you have extra money laying around than myself or others, doesn't mean you should get special privileges in skipping the grind coming from a subscribers pov.

Just because you don't notice the price of inflation doesn't me it doesn't exist. Yea it fluxuates daily but it still has an effect on the over end result.

This is an example of Hyperbole.

 

You are flat out WRONG.

No, the conditions set forth for something to be "pay to win" include making cash payments for things that allow one to enjoy, 1) extra convenience that makes the game easier and, 2) circumvention of gameplay (grinding). Subscribers receive both of those benefits, and therefore they are in fact paying to win. If a person who decries "pay to win" wants to be conistent and avoid hypocrisy, they must go F2P.

No, the conditions set forth for something to be "pay to win" include making cash payments for things that allow one to enjoy, 1) extra convenience that makes the game easier and, 2) circumvention of gameplay (grinding). Subscribers receive both of those benefits, and therefore they are in fact paying to win. If a person who decries "pay to win" wants to be conistent and avoid hypocrisy, they must go F2P.

I am not going to argue with you on this. You are flat out wrong. You are trying to "spin" to "justify" your view. This is at it's heart a subscription game. It may have "morphed" into a Freemium model that "includes" a F2P "option" but, the base rule set is tuned for paying for a service.

I will counter one final time with this. It would be like me calling all Freemium members "free loaders" and "entitled" because they want everything for "free". This of course is hyperbole because one can not fully realize the intentions of those that choose to play in the "free option".

You are being obtuse.

You are being obtuse.

Is he being red obtuse or blue obtuse ?