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To those that argued against Expertise coming back.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
To those that argued against Expertise coming back.

sharkfishman's Avatar


sharkfishman
09.17.2019 , 05:14 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
Hey buddy, you know they changed the gear costs in 3.x right? It was only around 4k comms to get the unranked set and they removed ranked comms during the 3.x era with the ranked set being around 16k I believe. The difference between the ranked and unranked set was small and it didn't take much longer to get the ranked set once you were in a full unranked set.

Also, around 4.x they increased the comm rewards for the daily and weekly. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was a lot. Like significantly more than the amount it gave during 3.x. So yes, in the span of a single day over a weekend you could easily have a full pvp set and be competitive.
In 4.0, there were still ranked comms. It cost 6K for the first set and another 16K for the second set. So 22K if you wanted to have the top tier set, and more if you wanted to min/max your gear.

I'm not sure if you're talking about right before 5.0 launched, because I wasn't around at the beginning of 5.0.
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sharkfishman's Avatar


sharkfishman
09.17.2019 , 05:16 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by NogueiraA View Post
Have you played 4.x? 25wz comms would be enough to gear up more than 10 characters BiS with additional healing/dps set.
So it only cost 2k comms for a full best in slot set? Sorry, I don't believe that's true.
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Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
09.17.2019 , 05:21 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
Still need to grind in an RNG system for amps/tacticals/gear sets and have to grind for BIS mods. Max bolster doesn't really solve anything. PvP with the 4.x system was literally the most optimal solution.
if I am not mistaken there will be a vendor that sells all the set bonus pieces for the new currency. BiS should have a grind imo, and bis and max bolster wont have a big difference between the two anyways. As for the amplifiers, you can reroll to try and get the one you want.

To me the rng just makes you gear a bit faster if your lucky.

If you would suggest them to add the new currency to mid/lowbies wzs, then you will be more like 4.0. If you didnt gain currency from mid/lowbies in 4.0. gearing would of been longer for your alts.
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teclado's Avatar


teclado
09.17.2019 , 05:31 PM | #24
Yeah, I got a little mad. Replies have been rather respectful given the fact that i was being a bit of a jerk. So props for that.

I just keep seeing revisionist history and factually incorrect information. Yes, I agree with Raansu: 4.x was the perfect system IMO. There was no significant gear grind. The unranked set was dirt cheap and not much worse than the ranked set. I could play all my alts and tweak the stats to my heartís content by purchasing mods / enhancements (cheaply). The only downside is that it was a separate gear set that required under 30 seconds to change into. So the cost / benefit ratio was a minimum.

The simple fact is that we have to have a pvp gear grind because pvp gear went away. Yes, the removal of expertise had a direct effect of making a miserable pvp grind a la pve.

Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
09.17.2019 , 05:43 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by sharkfishman View Post
In 4.0, there were still ranked comms. It cost 6K for the first set and another 16K for the second set. So 22K if you wanted to have the top tier set, and more if you wanted to min/max your gear.

I'm not sure if you're talking about right before 5.0 launched, because I wasn't around at the beginning of 5.0.
http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-econom...ame-update-3.3

It was 4075 for an unranked set, and ranked warzone commendations were removed in 3.3. They were replaced with tokens that we still have, so no ranked comms were not still around in 4.0. It cost 20,600 in total to go from unranked to ranked set, but again, the unranked set was competitive. You didn't need the ranked set at all in warzones and as long as you were augmented they really didn't make that much of a difference in ranked either and honestly a few days of warzones even playing casually is all it took to get a full BiS ranked set unlike the current situation that takes MONTHS and will be worse in 6.0.

They increased how many comms you got, they added a system that allowed you to transfer warzone comms with a legacy token so all your characters could share warzone comms and the cap was boosted to 200,000 making pvping while leveling a lowbie character extremely worthwhile (unlike now where the game practically discourages it...) You literally have to be insane to argue that the pvp system we had before the implantation of GC was not perfect for pvpers. Hands down it was the best thing for pvpers. Gear was cheap and easy to get and it kept lowbies active as well.

I played this game like crazy for years up until they added galactic command, so I'm gonna tell you right now, you're barking up the wrong tree in this argument and will lose. I remember most of the pvp changes over the years because the large majority of the time I pretty much did nothing but pvp in this game. You clearly don't remember much of anything during 3.x-4.x right before they added the GC system.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
if I am not mistaken there will be a vendor that sells all the set bonus pieces for the new currency. BiS should have a grind imo, and bis and max bolster wont have a big difference between the two anyways. As for the amplifiers, you can reroll to try and get the one you want.

To me the rng just makes you gear a bit faster if your lucky.
I don't believe BiS in pvp should have a long grind. The thing that was great about the old system was that everything was so cheap that it was super easy to buy mods and experiment with different stat builds. You shouldn't have to constantly rely on rng luck and burn a whole in your wallet constantly rerolling those stupid amps. Amps and tacticals are literally going to be the worst thing ever for pvp. The game has a crap ton of balance problems already. Those two systems are just going to make pvp unplayable.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
If you would suggest them to add the new currency to mid/lowbies wzs, then you will be more like 4.0. If you didnt gain currency from mid/lowbies in 4.0. gearing would of been longer for your alts.
It only cost 4k comms to get an unranked set in 4.x. It didn't take long at all to get a full set and warzone comms could be traded via legacy so just doing your dailies and weeklies on a main while you were leveling your alt to cap would easily earn enough comms to gear out your alt as soon as they hit level cap, especially if you were doing the lowbie pvp dailies and weeklies while leveling as well.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
09.17.2019 , 08:53 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-econom...ame-update-3.3

It was 4075 for an unranked set, and ranked warzone commendations were removed in 3.3. They were replaced with tokens that we still have, so no ranked comms were not still around in 4.0. It cost 20,600 in total to go from unranked to ranked set, but again, the unranked set was competitive. You didn't need the ranked set at all in warzones and as long as you were augmented they really didn't make that much of a difference in ranked either and honestly a few days of warzones even playing casually is all it took to get a full BiS ranked set unlike the current situation that takes MONTHS and will be worse in 6.0.

They increased how many comms you got, they added a system that allowed you to transfer warzone comms with a legacy token so all your characters could share warzone comms and the cap was boosted to 200,000 making pvping while leveling a lowbie character extremely worthwhile (unlike now where the game practically discourages it...) You literally have to be insane to argue that the pvp system we had before the implantation of GC was not perfect for pvpers. Hands down it was the best thing for pvpers. Gear was cheap and easy to get and it kept lowbies active as well.

It only cost 4k comms to get an unranked set in 4.x. It didn't take long at all to get a full set and warzone comms could be traded via legacy so just doing your dailies and weeklies on a main while you were leveling your alt to cap would easily earn enough comms to gear out your alt as soon as they hit level cap, especially if you were doing the lowbie pvp dailies and weeklies while leveling as well.
Yes I remember that around 4.3? they changed the comm system so you could buy tokens to store extra Comms or transfer them to other Alts. This allowed you to gear up to ranked as soon as you hit level 65. That was the pinnacle of pvp gearing in this game and then they destroyed it 5 months(?) later with 5.0, which caused a mass exodus of pvp players.

Quote:
PvP Gear Cost
We think that getting a full set of PvP gear is too much of a grind. This is so much the case that only about 2% of PvP players have a full Dark Reaver set. Having at least Exhumed gear is a barrier to entry to being successful in PvP for the majority of players, so we looked to reduce the time and cost of getting there. We have reduced the entry PvP gear costs by roughly a third, and a full set (not min/maxed) will now cost about 4075 Warzone Commendations
This is the most important part of that Bioware post. They firmly and irrevocably stated that they thought getting a full set of pvp gear was too much of a grind.
3.0-3.2 gearing was much less grind than now. And 6.0 grind will be even worse than 5.0 or 5.10 grind. So where did Bioware forget that 3.2 grind was too much and made 3.3 and essentially 4.x less of a grind (with zero RNG).
What the heck happened at Bioware that they forget the lessons learnt in the past?
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Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
09.18.2019 , 06:24 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Totemdancer View Post
This is the most important part of that Bioware post. They firmly and irrevocably stated that they thought getting a full set of pvp gear was too much of a grind.
3.0-3.2 gearing was much less grind than now. And 6.0 grind will be even worse than 5.0 or 5.10 grind. So where did Bioware forget that 3.2 grind was too much and made 3.3 and essentially 4.x less of a grind (with zero RNG).
What the heck happened at Bioware that they forget the lessons learnt in the past?
Who knows at this point. Granted there's a lot of turnover of developers in many studios, but you'd think someone would remember this. Same with the whole RNG idea. Someone at BW HAD to have remembered how much hatred there was for the battlemaster bags.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.18.2019 , 08:29 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
Those two systems are just going to make pvp unplayable.
You have every right to complain about the new gearing system if you think it will be bad, but you really should avoid hyperbole. From all of your posts, you seem to think that gear is more important in pvp than it really is.

With max bolster, everyone will be working with the same stat pool, which is the most important thing. Will min/maxers squeeze out a bit more damage? Sure, but it will be a long/expensive grind for very minimal gain.

You might be saying "no, it won't be minimal, it makes a huge difference!" and that's just not true. There's a sorc on Star Forge that recently got over 1500 while using full accuracy. That's 746 wasted points, yet he got to gold just because he's a decent player. I played with an op in ranked the other day with 231 gear on, and he was still very good, because he knew how to play his class. I could give another dozen such examples to prove that gear and min/maxing, even in the current game, matters very little. In 6.0 it will likely matter even less.

Also, I am a min/maxer myself, but I do it just because I like being optimal, not because I think it will give me some great advantage. And while 6.0's gearing system may not be ideal, I will simply adapt to whatever it is (granted, I am willing to do some pve).

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
09.18.2019 , 10:03 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post

You might be saying "no, it won't be minimal, it makes a huge difference!" and that's just not true. There's a sorc on Star Forge that recently got over 1500 while using full accuracy. That's 746 wasted points, yet he got to gold just because he's a decent player. I played with an op in ranked the other day with 231 gear on, and he was still very good, because he knew how to play his class. I could give another dozen such examples to prove that gear and min/maxing, even in the current game, matters very little. In 6.0 it will likely matter even less.

Also, I am a min/maxer myself, but I do it just because I like being optimal, not because I think it will give me some great advantage. And while 6.0's gearing system may not be ideal, I will simply adapt to whatever it is (granted, I am willing to do some pve).
How many dozens of examples do you have of someone getting completely obliterated in ranked wearing 230 gear? Or do those people not queue any more? Or are they so far down below bronze that you never get stuck with them because you're in gold tier? Anyway, what I'm saying is that you're experience is the exception, not the norm, since your rating influences who/what you get queued with.

But to be fair, I enjoy min-maxing, and I do more than pvp in this game, so I am biased -- because I can acquire gear from other difficult content. So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you -- just your example.
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JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.18.2019 , 10:21 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
How many dozens of examples do you have of someone getting completely obliterated in ranked wearing 230 gear?
For sure, the vast, vast majority of people that show up in ranked in 230s get crushed. But those people are getting destroyed because they are new to ranked and/or bad at the game. It has nothing to do with their gear. If you put those players in min/maxed 258s, they would get killed just as quickly and easily. One of the most notoriously bad players on Star Forge (rhymes with Bilsall) has 258s on most of his toons and he still gets globaled almost every game.