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The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

Slovic's Avatar


Slovic
02.12.2012 , 10:49 PM | #701
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
Those abilities you mentioned for Snipers and Mercs.. Most of them are absolute trash for the amount of resources they consume. They both barely do any DPS on the move. That's how ranged classes are supposed to function. Sorcerers got a few of their main abilities as instant-casts. Count yourself lucky. Affliction Tab-DoTing is quite strong if you absolutely must keep running to avoid being focused down. You also underestimate the power of shock. It hits for more than all but my hardest hitting move(Annihilate).
Not to mention the utility sorc's have WHILE having similar mobile dps as other classes.

If you tab dot as assault or dirty fighting you will run out of resources on the 2nd person. Then you will be in the "bad regen" zone. Correctly me if I am wrong... sorc's don't have a "bad regen" zone do they?

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 10:55 PM | #702
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
Those abilities you mentioned for Snipers and Mercs.. Most of them are absolute trash for the amount of resources they consume. They both barely do any DPS on the move. That's how ranged classes are supposed to function. Sorcerers got a few of their main abilities as instant-casts. Count yourself lucky. Affliction Tab-DoTing is quite strong if you absolutely must keep running to avoid being focused down. You also underestimate the power of shock. It hits for more than all but my hardest hitting move(Annihilate).
Wait, so first you laughed because I said that those classes had a lot more mobile damage than a Sorc.

Then I pointed it out, and you're saying "BUT WAIT, THOSE THINGS SUCK EVEN IF THEY HIT WAY HARDER THAN SHOCK, FORCE SLOW, AND AFFLICTION".

Okay, so the point you are making is that those classes do terrible dps on the move, and that a Sorc is even farther below terrible. That's exactly what I said too.

Shock CRITS for like 2kish on a cooldown. You're telling me that all but your hardest hitting moves hit for 1k on a Marauder? With a cooldown? Try again.

You are VASTLY overestimating the value of Affliction tab-targetting. It is useful for stopping caps on doors/turrets, and for proc'ing fast Force Lightning. That is it. Over the entire 15 seconds, it will amount to the damage of ONE of your good swings.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

justcallmetarzan's Avatar


justcallmetarzan
02.12.2012 , 10:58 PM | #703
Quote: Originally Posted by biowareftw View Post
Side A. OP hybrid spec that was never intended or balanced by Bioware EA who called for nerfs on other classes, then called for FURTHER nerfs on those classes.

Now claims the game and their class is perfectly balanced as do the people who rerolled this class, can't believe how simple and stupid it is and aren't yet 50 and can feel the nerf bat breathing down their neck.

Side B. LOL at these hypocrites.

Side C. New players to SWTOR. Why is there all sorcs in every warzone?

Side A. Cus the game is perfectly balanced.
I'm confused why you think hybrid is OP. I've stated several times that the difference between hybrid and straight 31 is only about 30 dps (it's actually 40, but no big deal). The most common hybrid spec by far is 13/28. By switching to a hybrid, sage/sorc must choose to:

1) Gimp damage to preserve self-heals; OR
2) Forgo self heals in favor of slightly more output;
AND
3) Forgo a 2-sec root and one of the highest internal damage abilities in the game.

They pick up:

1) 6% buff to one useful ability (TKW)
2) TKW
3) Psychic Suffusion.

OR they can go the really fail route and roll a 20/21 or similar variant and have even less dps and be holding their team back with needless aoe resolve.

The only time hybrid is "OP" is when they are left alone to sit at the side and nuke people without interruption. But then again, merc and sniper do the exact same thing.

Sages get torn in two by marauders. When a marauder gets on you, your choice is to either die, or spend everything you have running from it. And if there's a healer on the other team, you'll go on like this till someone else kills the marauder and you have about 10-20 secs of respite.

There is absolutely no evidence of hybrid specs being unbalanced. Mercs and DF smugglers out-dps them in WZ's all the time. Their CC ability comes at the tradeoff of a massive dps loss.

It's pretty simple really.

Edit - I'm just curious how many people posting in here actually HAVE a level 50 sage/sorc, and if so, what specs they've tried.

Datku's Avatar


Datku
02.12.2012 , 11:02 PM | #704
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
You do realize that the Sorc class was overpopulated before the game was even released, right? Before anyone had any idea what their abilities would be. Before the class was even CALLED Sorcerer.

There were polls on these forums for years asking what class everyone intended to roll; Sorcerer won by a large margin every time.

But I'm sure that you're right, everyone rolled Sorcerer on day one because it was OP, and not because they liked the mystique of the class and were excited to play an evil sorcerer.
This...

I have a BH and a IA as well as my sorc. Love the BH and love my sniper. Played both mostly in closed beta. Had made an assassin and got up to the early 20's but just didn't care for it. Story was cool but didn't like the style. The assassin was the first character I made when I got into closed beta. After playing the BH and IA I was sold on playing a non-force character at launch. After the last beta came out I decided to try out a sorc. Not because of PvP but because I saw them soloing elites fairly easly. Sorcs level pretty easy...I mean you got a tank and you are either healing or dpsing. Even a dps spec sorc could heal/bubble Khem enough to take on a couple elites and know you were going to move on to the next set.

I actually enjoyed the sorc for PvE so when game launched I made the sorc first. Easy to level, take slicing and only slicing to make money to support my BH and IA. Never even PvP with my sorc till I was 50. I enjoy the sorc because I can play it pretty aggressively and do halfway decent with it in many situations.

Classes I fear the most are BH/Troopers. Either not worth my time to try and kill, or they take me down regardless of all my tools like I was lvl 20 in a lvl 50 zone.

Ops'/snipers/gunslinger etc all depend on how the fight starts. They get the jump on me most likely I am going to try and CC them and move on. If I get the jump I will blow all cooldowns and try to take them out using every cooldown and trick I can. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose.

Knights/Mauraders I usually start fighting them to find out if they are any good or not. A bad Mara is easy to kill. A good one will send me back to respawn even if I do try and run.

Jugs/Guardians are not worth my time to kill and are annoying.

Assassin/shadows usually I will fight them and it can go either way although their escape is annoying :P

Sorcs/Sages I engage on sight. I guess I am cocky and figure I am better than they are and want to prove it. Hasn't prevented me from running into a few that hurt me faster than I hurt them but even then it comes down to using the right skills at the right time you can turn almost any fight around if you attack and counter correctly. Healing versions though...pftt not enough time to mess with them unless they are being ganged up on. I can't interupt them enough or burst fast enough to take a healing spec sorc/sage out solo.

Anyway long rant on why I replied. I agree with this guy. Sorcs have always been popular and are easy as pie to level up. Great as a money maker to support your other characters and pretty fun to play as well.

Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
02.12.2012 , 11:03 PM | #705
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
Wait, so first you laughed because I said that those classes had a lot more mobile damage than a Sorc.

Then I pointed it out, and you're saying "BUT WAIT, THOSE THINGS SUCK EVEN IF THEY HIT WAY HARDER THAN SHOCK, FORCE SLOW, AND AFFLICTION".

Okay, so the point you are making is that those classes do terrible dps on the move, and that a Sorc is even farther below terrible. That's exactly what I said too.

Shock CRITS for like 2kish on a cooldown. You're telling me that all but your hardest hitting moves hit for 1k on a Marauder? With a cooldown? Try again.

You are VASTLY overestimating the value of Affliction tab-targetting. It is useful for stopping caps on doors/turrets, and for proc'ing fast Force Lightning. That is it. Over the entire 15 seconds, it will amount to the damage of ONE of your good swings.
1. No. I said that they do LESS damage than a Sorcerer on the move. If they do decide to blow all their energy/heat then sure, they do a bit more.

2. That's exactly what I'm saying. Shock hits harder than anything I have in Annihilation spec other than Annihilate. My Vicious Slash hits for around 1800 damage in Rakata gear and 550 power. I suppose Rupture does more damage than Shock if you count all the DoT ticks that come with it but in that case Affliction does a lot as well.

3. Yes I realize it's not great but it's certainly a lot of on the move damage if you have multiple people around to Tab-DoT and can't stop to cast. It's damage over time but so is most of my Annihilation spec damage and people on this thread(not you) have called it "very strong".
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 11:08 PM | #706
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
Those abilities you mentioned for Snipers and Mercs.. Most of them are absolute trash for the amount of resources they consume. They both barely do any DPS on the move. That's how ranged classes are supposed to function. Sorcerers got a few of their main abilities as instant-casts. Count yourself lucky. Affliction Tab-DoTing is quite strong if you absolutely must keep running to avoid being focused down. You also underestimate the power of shock. It hits for more than all but my hardest hitting move(Annihilate).

At launch by the way there were already people saying Sorcerers were a capable/safe pick for a class. At launch Sages weren't a massive majority because they lacked the "cool" factor of shooting lightning but now you see their population growing rapidly. You're probably right though. A large percent of the population probably just suddenly decided that throwing pebbles at people was really cool and it was worth rerolling for that. It had nothing to do with their absolute dominance in PvP.
I didn't play in the beta at all, actually. I did, however, browse the forums almost every day until the game was released (from about 2 months before Cataclysm was released, which was when I quit WoW and decided I'd just wait for TOR).

So I'm simply going by what the majority on the official forums had been saying they'd play, which was Sorc by a large margin.

For the vast majority of the initial Sorcerer wave (most of the geared 50 sorcs you may see), it had nothing to do w/ dominance in PvP. The beta crowd was a very, very tiny sample of all the people who started playing this game during early access and at launch, and as anyone will tell you, the majority of players don't ever come to these forums.

You're telling me that they magically knew that Sorcs were OP because you said so to your other cronies in the beta forums?

Does not compute.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

biowareftw's Avatar


biowareftw
02.12.2012 , 11:11 PM | #707
Quote: Originally Posted by Datku View Post
This...

I have a BH and a IA as well as my sorc. Love the BH and love my sniper. Played both mostly in closed beta. Had made an assassin and got up to the early 20's but just didn't care for it. Story was cool but didn't like the style. The assassin was the first character I made when I got into closed beta. After playing the BH and IA I was sold on playing a non-force character at launch. After the last beta came out I decided to try out a sorc. Not because of PvP but because I saw them soloing elites fairly easly. Sorcs level pretty easy...I mean you got a tank and you are either healing or dpsing. Even a dps spec sorc could heal/bubble Khem enough to take on a couple elites and know you were going to move on to the next set.

I actually enjoyed the sorc for PvE so when game launched I made the sorc first. Easy to level, take slicing and only slicing to make money to support my BH and IA. Never even PvP with my sorc till I was 50. I enjoy the sorc because I can play it pretty aggressively and do halfway decent with it in many situations.

Classes I fear the most are BH/Troopers. Either not worth my time to try and kill, or they take me down regardless of all my tools like I was lvl 20 in a lvl 50 zone.

Ops'/snipers/gunslinger etc all depend on how the fight starts. They get the jump on me most likely I am going to try and CC them and move on. If I get the jump I will blow all cooldowns and try to take them out using every cooldown and trick I can. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose.

Knights/Mauraders I usually start fighting them to find out if they are any good or not. A bad Mara is easy to kill. A good one will send me back to respawn even if I do try and run.

Jugs/Guardians are not worth my time to kill and are annoying.

Assassin/shadows usually I will fight them and it can go either way although their escape is annoying :P

Sorcs/Sages I engage on sight. I guess I am cocky and figure I am better than they are and want to prove it. Hasn't prevented me from running into a few that hurt me faster than I hurt them but even then it comes down to using the right skills at the right time you can turn almost any fight around if you attack and counter correctly. Healing versions though...pftt not enough time to mess with them unless they are being ganged up on. I can't interupt them enough or burst fast enough to take a healing spec sorc/sage out solo.

Anyway long rant on why I replied. I agree with this guy. Sorcs have always been popular and are easy as pie to level up. Great as a money maker to support your other characters and pretty fun to play as well.
Sorc story/assassin story = same. Amazing you didn't realize this when you played the two specs...

I hope you enjoyed your beta weekend where you leveled up characters *cough BS cough*.

Sorc/sages became overpopulated at the end of each beta phase. It had nothing to do with being easy to level.

They are probably one of the worst classes to level up to 10 (not that any are hard but a new MMO player might actually die on one). They are good past that, but to be honest? Marauder/sent level way easier. Guardians blow for leveling and they are more played then sentinels/marauder. Why? Cus marauder/sent is harder to excel on.

Like I said the sage story was the WORST I experienced in the game and many people agree. It isn't stopping them from being rerolled to like crazy right now.
Einstein's relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists.- Nikola Tesla - New York Times (11 July 1935)

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 11:17 PM | #708
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
1. No. I said that they do LESS damage than a Sorcerer on the move. If they do decide to blow all their energy/heat then sure, they do a bit more.

2. That's exactly what I'm saying. Shock hits harder than anything I have in Annihilation spec other than Annihilate. My Vicious Slash hits for around 1800 damage in Rakata gear and 550 power. I suppose Rupture does more damage than Shock if you count all the DoT ticks that come with it but in that case Affliction does a lot as well.

3. Yes I realize it's not great but it's certainly a lot of on the move damage if you have multiple people around to Tab-DoT and can't stop to cast. It's damage over time but so is most of my Annihilation spec damage and people on this thread(not you) have called it "very strong".
1) But you didn't say they do less damage than a sorcerer on the move, you said that they have a higher resource cost. That makes sense, because their moves also do... higher damage.

And there are more of them that can be used.

But in reality, this isn't even true, because for a Sniper, you can hit Rifle Shot twice. For a Mercenary, hit Rapid Shots twice. Congratulations, you just did damage on par w/ Affliction for absolutely 0 resource cost.

2) So your ability hits for what Shock can crit for, and has no cooldown. Got it.

3) Were YOU ever killed by an Affliction dot by itself when some Sorc tab-targetted you while running through a crowd? Seriously, who wastes GCD's tab-dotting random players w/ Affliction if they are being focused down, unless it's a last ditch effort to get dots on people who might cap a door or turret?

It's certainly not being done for the damage portion, lol.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.12.2012 , 11:18 PM | #709
Quote: Originally Posted by biowareftw View Post
Sorc story/assassin story = same. Amazing you didn't realize this when you played the two specs...

I hope you enjoyed your beta weekend where you leveled up characters *cough BS cough*.

Sorc/sages became overpopulated at the end of each beta phase. It had nothing to do with being easy to level.

They are probably one of the worst classes to level up to 10 (not that any are hard but a new MMO player might actually die on one). They are good past that, but to be honest? Marauder/sent level way easier. Guardians blow for leveling and they are more played then sentinels/marauder. Why? Cus marauder/sent is harder to excel on.

Like I said the sage story was the WORST I experienced in the game and many people agree. It isn't stopping them from being rerolled to like crazy right now.
Sorcs were overpopulated before beta invites ever went out... I am not sure what reality you are talking about here.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
02.12.2012 , 11:25 PM | #710
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
1) But you didn't say they do less damage than a sorcerer on the move, you said that they have a higher resource cost. That makes sense, because their moves also do... higher damage.

And there are more of them that can be used.

But in reality, this isn't even true, because for a Sniper, you can hit Rifle Shot twice. For a Mercenary, hit Rapid Shots twice. Congratulations, you just did damage on par w/ Affliction for absolutely 0 resource cost.

2) So your ability hits for what Shock can crit for, and has no cooldown. Got it.

3) Were YOU ever killed by an Affliction dot by itself when some Sorc tab-targetted you while running through a crowd? Seriously, who wastes GCD's tab-dotting random players w/ Affliction if they are being focused down, unless it's a last ditch effort to get dots on people who might cap a door or turret?

It's certainly not being done for the damage portion, lol.
@2 - Yes my rage spender attack with a 4m range hits harder than your instant-cast 30 yard range attack when it doesn't proc the second reduced damage shock. You should be comparing 1x Vicious Slash + 1x Assault(Auto Attack basically, builds 2 rage which is what VS costs) to a full Force Lightning. Your Force Lightning ends up being more damage in equal gear.

@3 - If you're given a choice between using your GCDs while kiting or just simply running and doing nothing you should be choosing the former option(unless you're force starved on incredibly rare occasion).
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com