Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

Paulman's Avatar


Paulman
02.11.2012 , 02:35 AM | #411
I read through your post. Honestly I think the classes are pretty well balanced, other than possilbly the Op/Scoundrel which could probably use some love. I have played several different classes and each has it's pluses and minuses. I've also played with lot of players and I know at least several of each class that can make that class great. You only prove that by posting your screenshot. You say sorc are OP but then you post a screen shot of how you did 2-4 times there damage WHILE doing more healing for close to as much as them. How easy do you want the game to be for yourself?

You made it obvious that you can make your class work well for you against them and others have attested to the same thing. So you really can't say it's overpowered. You COULD argue that it's an easier class to play than others. I would say that's debatable. I have seen game with lots of sage or sorcs have done well and I've seen others where they have gotten slaughtered. It really depends on the players, gear, and other classes( Just like every game).

You say that the hybrid spec is "Unintentional". What is the point of the talents if not to pick the right combination that suits your playstyle? If you dumb down everything to 1-3 specs there is no point to the entire system. If it was truely unintentionally, they did a brilliant mistake, because there are lots of pretty viable specs right now. And contratry to what you said there are drawbacks to the hybid spec you posted.

Bottom line do you want to make the game better or worse? There are so many more important issues that need to be focused on. Like Ilum needs a serious rework, the UI needs lots of work, game performance with lot of players, etc. Classes balance is one of the least of this game's problems. The last thing the game needs is a systemantic nerfing of every class. Because that's what it's turning into and that is a great way to lose players and kill the game. It seems to be dying enough already.

Rallic's Avatar


Rallic
02.11.2012 , 02:40 AM | #412
If tjey let us respec are AC I'm sure you would see a lot less sorcs and a tun more assassins. Sorcs are a good over all class.. not that hard to play . Fun with the tools it has but my shadow I rolled up on pub so I didt have to do the same story over is so much Better.

More dps more kills less deaths , over all its more. Iv bin kicking my self for a few weeks now for not rolling a assassin to start with.

Anetsetsouken's Avatar


Anetsetsouken
02.11.2012 , 02:46 AM | #413
Making a whine thread shows that you are clearly new to vidya games. Or, not smart.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.11.2012 , 02:46 AM | #414
Quote: Originally Posted by Tumri View Post
A lot of what Megamaid is saying is true. Sorcerers typically do less single target damage while having a LOT more CC/Control/Utility in the hybrid spec I posted. In PvP however control and utility reign supreme in any team situation. The only PvP we have is team based PvP. This is a huge part of why they're overpowered in that spec. It's also true that Sorcerers stack well. 6x Sorcerers in a team means you might as well surrender if you don't have as many. You'll never be able to touch them.
I agree w/ everything you say here, but if you take away the utility that a Sorc brings to the table, then what you are left w/ is a mediocre dps class.

The CC/utility is the only thing allowing that Sorc to cast at you or run away if you get close. When stacked, a lot of classes become ridiculous. Sorcs do synergize well, but I don't think this is anything unique to their class.

I had a Voidstar match where my side was 8 BHs (different specs, all roles). The enemy didn't have a prayer of making it past the first door.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Howbadisbad's Avatar


Howbadisbad
02.11.2012 , 02:47 AM | #415
All the Sorc FOTM players defending their class.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jibbie View Post
If one class can perform better than other classes in a greater number of rolls, than that class is not balanced.
You defended that Operatives can perform well, but if an Assassin can do the same things but better, than Operatives are not balanced. "Succeeding" is irrelevant.

Vales's Avatar


Vales
02.11.2012 , 02:48 AM | #416
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulman View Post
I read through your post. Honestly I think the classes are pretty well balanced, other than possilbly the Op/Scoundrel which could probably use some love. I have played several different classes and each has it's pluses and minuses. I've also played with lot of players and I know at least several of each class that can make that class great. You only prove that by posting your screenshot. You say sorc are OP but then you post a screen shot of how you did 2-4 times there damage WHILE doing more healing for close to as much as them. How easy do you want the game to be for yourself?

You made it obvious that you can make your class work well for you against them and others have attested to the same thing. So you really can't say it's overpowered. You COULD argue that it's an easier class to play than others. I would say that's debatable. I have seen game with lots of sage or sorcs have done well and I've seen others where they have gotten slaughtered. It really depends on the players, gear, and other classes( Just like every game).

You say that the hybrid spec is "Unintentional". What is the point of the talents if not to pick the right combination that suits your playstyle? If you dumb down everything to 1-3 specs there is no point to the entire system. If it was truely unintentionally, they did a brilliant mistake, because there are lots of pretty viable specs right now. And contratry to what you said there are drawbacks to the hybid spec you posted.

Bottom line do you want to make the game better or worse? There are so many more important issues that need to be focused on. Like Ilum needs a serious rework, the UI needs lots of work, game performance with lot of players, etc. Classes balance is one of the least of this game's problems. The last thing the game needs is a systemantic nerfing of every class. Because that's what it's turning into and that is a great way to lose players and kill the game. It seems to be dying enough already.
Like WoW is going to do next expansion. Fixated talent trees with no variation and all you get is one flavour talent every odd 15th level.
Hooray for diversity!
Not. -.-

Quote: Originally Posted by Howbadisbad View Post
All the Sorc FOTM players defending their class.
All the bads crying OP.
See wat I did thar?!
This game needs more Kel Dor!

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
02.11.2012 , 02:53 AM | #417
Quote: Originally Posted by Howbadisbad View Post
All the Sorc FOTM players defending their class.
lol, I rolled my Sorc before it was even possible to have a FOTM class. Much like most of the Sorcs you see running around. I'm sorry that I didn't predict during early access exactly what class everyone else was going to pick and decided to choose a class that appealed to me for years before the game came out.

I play a Powertech as my main now. Because I also played a Sorc, I know what the class weaknesses are and how to exploit them, and so they do not seem OP to me at all.

If you are having problems w/ Sorcs, you should learn what to do against them instead of simply crying for nerfs.

It's not hard to shut a Sorc down.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Exilim's Avatar


Exilim
02.11.2012 , 03:01 AM | #418
The only problem I have with sorc and sages is the force speed. Needs to be moved to Assassin/Shadow abilities. No other ranged class has a disengage ability like that, it's even on a short cooldown.
I believe in people bombing
I believe in people warring
I believe diseases coming
I believe that's why I'm running

shazariahl's Avatar


shazariahl
02.11.2012 , 04:08 AM | #419
Its been mentioned a few times, but no one's really discussed it much at length, but changing the lightning tree by moving all these talents up means:
1. the lightning tree needs to be redesigned entirely otherwise it's useless for leveling.
2. the top abilities get moved down in favor of the utility abilities, which makes no sense, and actually makes the tree even stronger for hybrid builds than it is now by giving the current top talents at the bottom tiers.

Since I assume 2 is just a stupid idea that no one would honestly entertain, let's look at 1. If we take away things like the 20% buff to the shield and chain lightning and move them higher, what else is there in this tree for someone leveling a sorcerer? Honestly, there's nothing. You can grab the +100 force maybe and 9% reduction to abilities from tier 1, but if there's nothing good above it, who would bother? Force management in PvP isn't as much of an issue at 50 anyways. You can get infinite heals in corruption, so force management doesn't matter as much, and you can get force regen with the madness tree, so again force management doesn't matter as much there. What else is there to entice people into this tree?

The only reason people play hybrid lightning builds in PvE is for chain lightning/wrath combos (the 13/28 build that is so popular for PvE is entirely based around this). PvP's a little different story as people want some survivability as well, but in a cloth wearing class who can blame them?

Point is, that making these kinds of drastic changes to the lightning tree can't be done without replacing those bottom talents with something else. And that something has to allow lightning to be a viable spec for both PvP and PvE leveling/raiding. What are you going to replace the survivability with? Clearly not other forms of survivability, or else why change things? Are you going to replace it with dmg talents? Because that will just make hybrid builds do more damage off Wrath procs, won't it? You can't replace them with force management talents - that tree already has force management talents on tier 1. Adding more would make no sense, especially for leveling. No one is going to put points into a tree that is just 3 tiers of force management with no survivability or damage talents. Basically you would just be consigning lightning as a tree that people pick up with their extra points once they've already reached max in the other trees and just want some force management help from tier 1.

And for the record, yes I'm a sorcerer. I play 21/2/18 which is mostly a healing spec, but with some damage from madness. Moving things in lightning wouldn't affect me in the least, since I've only got 2 points in that tree. I'm just saying that you can't make sweeping changes without giving them some thought - which after 42 pages, this thread has shown precious little thought indeed.

Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
02.11.2012 , 04:28 PM | #420
Quote: Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Its been mentioned a few times, but no one's really discussed it much at length, but changing the lightning tree by moving all these talents up means:
1. the lightning tree needs to be redesigned entirely otherwise it's useless for leveling.
2. the top abilities get moved down in favor of the utility abilities, which makes no sense, and actually makes the tree even stronger for hybrid builds than it is now by giving the current top talents at the bottom tiers.

Since I assume 2 is just a stupid idea that no one would honestly entertain, let's look at 1. If we take away things like the 20% buff to the shield and chain lightning and move them higher, what else is there in this tree for someone leveling a sorcerer? Honestly, there's nothing. You can grab the +100 force maybe and 9% reduction to abilities from tier 1, but if there's nothing good above it, who would bother? Force management in PvP isn't as much of an issue at 50 anyways. You can get infinite heals in corruption, so force management doesn't matter as much, and you can get force regen with the madness tree, so again force management doesn't matter as much there. What else is there to entice people into this tree?

The only reason people play hybrid lightning builds in PvE is for chain lightning/wrath combos (the 13/28 build that is so popular for PvE is entirely based around this). PvP's a little different story as people want some survivability as well, but in a cloth wearing class who can blame them?

Point is, that making these kinds of drastic changes to the lightning tree can't be done without replacing those bottom talents with something else. And that something has to allow lightning to be a viable spec for both PvP and PvE leveling/raiding. What are you going to replace the survivability with? Clearly not other forms of survivability, or else why change things? Are you going to replace it with dmg talents? Because that will just make hybrid builds do more damage off Wrath procs, won't it? You can't replace them with force management talents - that tree already has force management talents on tier 1. Adding more would make no sense, especially for leveling. No one is going to put points into a tree that is just 3 tiers of force management with no survivability or damage talents. Basically you would just be consigning lightning as a tree that people pick up with their extra points once they've already reached max in the other trees and just want some force management help from tier 1.

And for the record, yes I'm a sorcerer. I play 21/2/18 which is mostly a healing spec, but with some damage from madness. Moving things in lightning wouldn't affect me in the least, since I've only got 2 points in that tree. I'm just saying that you can't make sweeping changes without giving them some thought - which after 42 pages, this thread has shown precious little thought indeed.
The Sorcerer leveling experience is among the easiest in the game. The only comparable leveling experience is the one Mercenaries experience, which is also notoriously easy. I don't think that they would need to buff their early levels to compensate for these talents being moved up. Early game isn't hard and it isn't balanced around having to have specific talents in a specific tree. It's also not worth sacrificing end game balance for early game balance, which by the way is already absolutely terrible. A pre-50 warzone is in no way even remotely balanced since some classes get their good abilities later on and some get them earlier leading to gross advantages to some and crippling disadvantages to others.

Yes. The trees very much need to be reworked a bit. They wouldn't need to touch any of the actual talents but Bioware would need to move certain talents down while moving others up. This requires thought and care to not cause further imbalance but at present this sort of hybrid CC spec is breaking PvP. You can't just leave something OP just because it would take effort to rebalance.

The fact that Sorcerers are light armor doesn't make much of a difference in survivability. On the contrary their bubble and mobility make them much harder to kill than Bounty Hunters. Their range and escape capability also means that they are far more survivable than most melee. You can't just argue that their 16% damage reduction from armor vs the 24% from medium and the 32% from heavy means they somehow deserve every single utility in the game. The bubble balances it out by itself. A medium armor wearer gets 8% more survivability than a Sorcerer passively. A bubble is at minimum 3.5k and at best 6.5k. With a health pool of ~16k this means that a Sorcerer has a bonus 20%+ effective health assuming just ONE bubble. It's even possible that a pre-casted bubble allows them to use another bubble during a brawl. I don't think the bubble is overpowered but it certainly more than makes up for their light armor.
Wrath
Pre-Launch Hardcore Guild that has moved on to better games.
www.wrathnation.com