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Buff Operatives


khouj

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Let's have a realistic discussion.

 

In the current state of the game, conc operatives/ scrapper smugglers are a below average melee damage class. They can deal burst damage, but not as well as some other classes, while at the same time they lack mobility/survivability (these are the same thing sometimes). Additionally, they are behind or slightly behind other classes sustained damage output. To make up for these weaknesses they have only stealth, which loses its power naturally over time as player skill rises.

 

The main point I want to make is, to a well played ranged or semi ranged class in a 1v1 the operative is currently a joke. The class is simply trivial to kite and falls apart quickly once any initial momentum is lost. This might not be noticed by most players who have limited experience fighting operatives, and aren't aware how easy to kite they are, let alone ever try it themselves. I believe the classes weaknesses are set to be exposed with the release of any competitive pvp, which will give a clearer view of balance in high level swtor.

 

Think about huttball, where the weakness of operatives is actually widely recognised. All flavours of operative, but dps ops especially since they are melee, are weak in huttball. The class simply lacks any kind of mobility or utility ability.

 

I will give out a tip I think will surprise many players. When you are knocked on your face by an operative, this stun only lasts for ~1.5s, the same duration as the global cooldown. Many, many operatives will use another damaging ability in their second global instead of using their 4 second stun, leaving you a gap to use your own stun or mezz on the operative. If they do not have their cc break cooldown up you just ruined their entire opener and can walk to safety/snare the operative etc. - basically escaping unscathed. I see players fail to use this opportunity time and time again. I'm saying start trying to get out of melee range as your number one priority, because this is the achilles heel of the class.

 

I see the main argument against buffing operatives as being: on average, operatives are in an OK place balance wise right now, so why should they be buffed in any way? While I personally think that the game should be balanced around high level pvp (where dps ops are sorely lacking), many would disagree, and objective data won't exist until competitive pvp is introduced anyway. So I propose operatives be buffed in a way that corrects their worthlessness at very skilled levels of play, without altering the average power of the class which most players will face.

 

I suggest the mobility of operatives be buffed substantially. The amount of damage the class can frontload will be unchanged, and this is the part of the class people are sensitive about. Nobody is complaining that operatives can stick to their target too well, only that they 'just three shot them while stunned', right?

 

Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth? Or, Imagine an operative with a skill similar to force sprint, only half the speed.

 

I think it's clear what I am trying to say, buff the mobility of operatives to make them competitive in high level play now, and general play in the future as average skill rises.

Edited by khouj
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I'm lvling up an Operative atm as Conc, and I'll have to agree we definitly need a charge or leap, or a short-term movement burst.

All melee classes should have a quick way to get in range of a target; warriors have charge, assassins have their force speed thing... But yea.. operatives don't have anything -_-

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Let's have a realistic discussion.

 

In the current state of the game, conc operatives/ scrapper smugglers are a below average melee damage class. They can deal burst damage, but not as well as some other classes, while at the same time they lack mobility/survivability (these are the same thing sometimes). Additionally, they are behind or slightly behind other classes sustained damage output. To make up for these weaknesses they have only stealth, which loses its power naturally over time as player skill rises.

 

The main point I want to make is, to a well played ranged or semi ranged class in a 1v1 the operative is currently a joke. The class is simply trivial to kite and falls apart quickly once any initial momentum is lost. This might not be noticed by most players who have limited experience fighting operatives, and aren't aware how easy to kite they are, let alone ever try it themselves. I believe the classes weaknesses are set to be exposed with the release of any competitive pvp, which will give a clearer view of balance in high level swtor.

 

Think about huttball, where the weakness of operatives is actually widely recognised. All flavours of operative, but dps ops especially since they are melee, are weak in huttball. The class simply lacks any kind of mobility or utility ability.

 

I will give out a tip I think will surprise many players. When you are knocked on your face by an operative, this stun only lasts for ~1.5s, the same duration as the global cooldown. Many, many operatives will use another damaging ability in their second global instead of using their 4 second stun, leaving you a gap to use your own stun or mezz on the operative. If they do not have their cc break cooldown up you just ruined their entire opener and can walk to safety/snare the operative etc. - basically escaping unscathed. I see players fail to use this opportunity time and time again. I'm saying start trying to get out of melee range as your number one priority, because this is the achilles heel of the class.

 

I see the main argument against buffing operatives as being: on average, operatives are in an OK place balance wise right now, so why should they be buffed in any way? While I personally think that the game should be balanced around high level pvp (where dps ops are sorely lacking), many would disagree, and objective data won't exist until competitive pvp is introduced anyway. So I propose operatives be buffed in a way that corrects their worthlessness at very skilled levels of play, without altering the average power of the class which most players will face.

 

I suggest the mobility of operatives be buffed substantially. The amount of damage the class can frontload will be unchanged, and this is the part of the class people are sensitive about. Nobody is complaining that operatives can stick to their target too well, only that they 'just three shot them while stunned', right?

 

Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth? Or, Imagine an operative with a skill similar to force sprint, only half the speed.

 

I think it's clear what I am trying to say, buff the mobility of operatives to make them competitive in high level play now, and general play in the future as average skill rises.

 

 

1. You have stealth.

2. Pick your battles carefully.

3. Problem solved.

 

 

(ps)

Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth?

 

Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.

So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one? :rolleyes:

Edited by kweassa
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At max level with proper itemization the class/build does what the designers want:

 

Heavily front-loaded damage, in other words massive burst during the opener.

 

Change that and the class design changes.

 

Keep that and buff the class and you approach Alpha.

 

---

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1. You have stealth.

2. Pick your battles carefully.

3. Problem solved.

A classic counter argument to just about anything involving stealth classes, but the thing is while you can in fact do this and never die in several pug warzones in a row whilst racking up impressive numbers, it does nothing to help the problem I am addressing in my post... Which is the viability of the class when playing against very good players.

 

Operatives do excel at smashing down weak players, I know.

Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.

So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one? :rolleyes:

Stealth is a little different to a gap closer. It lets you open in melee range once, sure. I thought I was thorough in my post explaining why I thought operatives need another one.

Edited by khouj
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At max level with proper itemization the class/build does what the designers want:

 

Heavily front-loaded damage, in other words massive burst during the opener.

 

Change that and the class design changes.

 

Keep that and buff the class and you approach Alpha.

 

---

Doing more than what the designers want isn't automatically 'approaching alpha'. I'm sure the designers also want every class to be balanced well.

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Assassins have stealth, a gap closer, a (talented) pull and survivability.

 

Operatives have one of these.

 

Who cares? Were we talking about Assasins?

Them needing a nerf is a seperate subject to discuss, and in no way justifies anything.

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Who cares? Were we talking about Assasins?

Them needing a nerf is a seperate subject to discuss, and in no way justifies anything.

 

Assassins are the other stealth-based class and are FAR better than Operatives in every way apart from being able to spec for heals.

 

LMAO@stealth being a 'gap-closer' like Force Charge, Grapple, Force Sprint etc...

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A classic counter argument, but the thing is while you can in fact do this and never die in several pug warzones in a row whilst racking up impressive numbers, it does nothing to help the problem I am addressing in my post... Which is the viability of the class when playing against very good players.

 

...except very good Ops/Scoundrels do very well, when they are very good Ops/Scoundrel players themselves. When I think about 'good players' regardless of faction, some names immediately come up to my mind, and quite a few of them are Ops/Scoundrels which excel in what they do best.

 

 

Operatives do excel at smashing down weak players, I know.

 

Stealth is a little different to a gap closer. It lets you open in melee range once, sure. I thought I was thorough in my post explaining why I thought operatives need another one.

 

And with due respect, my response is self explanatory.

Getting that "once" is what Ops/Scoundrels do better than any other. Its what the class was built to do.

 

WZs aren't 1vs1 duels. If you can burst someone in the opening stages and send 40% of their HP flying to kingdom come within the first 5 seconds of contact, then that alone is plenty enough a job Ops/Scoundrels do. Conversely, picking out enemies who only have that 40% or so HP left and sending themselves to kingdom come, is also a plenty worthy job as the "executioner", they are.

 

Drop the presumption that an Ops/Scoundrel needs to be able to 1vs1 every enemy and kill it in whatever the given situation despite being outside their own combat/time frame of maximum performance.

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At max level with proper itemization the class/build does what the designers want:

 

Heavily front-loaded damage, in other words massive burst during the opener.

 

Change that and the class design changes.

 

Keep that and buff the class and you approach Alpha.

 

---

 

So the designers want the class to be lousy in Operations? Bah, I think not. The way the game is designed, having Scoundrels be just the 'burst damage' class isn't an option because for half the endgame that has zero value. Plus, they have already nerfed the burst damage so much that other classes such as Pyros can do the same burst but without the inconvenience of getting within 4m and behind the target.

 

Stealth as a gap closer? Yeah, that argument would work if Shadows didn't have both and if Scoundrels could re-stealth more than once every 2-3minutes. Reduce the Cool Down of Disappearing Act to 60s and perhaps then that would work as a gap closer. I have a feeling people would dislike that change a lot though, despite the fact Marauders can stealth in combat that frequently.

 

I still think that the two main issues facing a Scoundrel are (1) Sustained PVE damage and (2) Mobility. I don't want a Shadow Step ability or a Sprint, however. I'd much prefer the class got some partial immunity to roots and snares - that would keep the class unique and fits the flavour perfectly while solving the 'If I'm not in stealth, because I got clipped by an AOE 30s ago, I can't get to that Sorc because I'm crawling along."

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Assassins are the other stealth-based class and are FAR better than Operatives in every way apart from being able to spec for heals.

 

LMAO@stealth being a 'gap-closer' like Force Charge, Grapple, Force Sprint etc...

 

Do you not understand the question; "Were we talking about Assasins?"

 

 

(ps)

LMAO@stealth being a 'gap-closer' like Force Charge, Grapple, Force Sprint etc...

 

Who needs force charge, force sprint, etc.. when you can close in and finish the ones that cannot survive the first opening spike?

Edited by kweassa
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So the designers want the class to be lousy in Operations? Bah, I think not. The way the game is designed, having Scoundrels be just the 'burst damage' class isn't an option because for half the endgame that has zero value. Plus, they have already nerfed the burst damage so much that other classes such as Pyros can do the same burst but without the inconvenience of getting within 4m and behind the target.

 

Do the Pyros also have the luxury of remaining invisible when wants to?

 

Besides, here comes the "they nerfed the opening burst so bad" claim again. So just which point are we comparing it with? From the point when SWTOR first went live and they literally DID 3 shot enemies in bullshi* mega-spikes? If you're laying your standards from those days, then that would be a seriously bad, bad point to compare anything.

 

 

Stealth as a gap closer? Yeah, that argument would work if Shadows didn't have both and if Scoundrels could re-stealth more than once every 2-3minutes. Reduce the Cool Down of Disappearing Act to 60s and perhaps then that would work as a gap closer. I have a feeling people would dislike that change a lot though, despite the fact Marauders can stealth in combat that frequently.

 

...for 4 seconds. Good comparison. :rolleyes:

 

 

I still think that the two main issues facing a Scoundrel are (1) Sustained PVE damage and (2) Mobility. I don't want a Shadow Step ability or a Sprint, however. I'd much prefer the class got some partial immunity to roots and snares - that would keep the class unique and fits the flavour perfectly while solving the 'If I'm not in stealth, because I got clipped by an AOE 30s ago, I can't get to that Sorc because I'm crawling along."

 

Actually the problem is people want stuff for free. They go up PvP builds and classes, and then complain they're less efficient in PvE. Whoop dee too, what do you want, a do-all, be-all, end-all performance spec that lets you have all the mighty traits for PvP as well as sickly levels of PvE performance?

 

It is a very well known fact, with almost all MMOGs, that there are differences in PvP builds and PvE builds.

 

Drop the greed, man. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Edited by kweassa
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Do you not understand the question; "Were we talking about Assasins?"

 

 

(ps)

 

 

Who needs force charge, force sprint, etc.. when you can close in and finish the ones that cannot survive the first opening spike?

 

On a similarly-geared Jugg, I can bust trinkets and drop a 7k Smash auto-crit, followed by a 3.5k Force Scream crit and a 3.5k execute crit, instantly closing the gap from 30m, without stealth.

 

You are Bad.

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1. You have stealth.

2. Pick your battles carefully.

3. Problem solved.

 

 

(ps)

 

Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.

So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one? :rolleyes:

 

 

Stealth on Operative would become gap closer if cloack screen would be on 30 sec CD and granted you immunity from stealth breaking at least for 6 sec.

 

You can not get back on your target after knockback/pull as any onter melee can. If you dont understand how easly this would be abused in organized PvP - its not making class fine.

 

In PUGs well geared and well played Operatives/scoundrels are godlike. Especially in catching unguarded healers and udergeared bads, who dont understatnd how to conter them and there are people around who dont give a **** - randoms. But who care obout PUGs right?

 

Play one and you will feel the difference between 5500 opener, and 4900 BS on a healer with 14k hp and no guard, and 2400 opener and 2100 BS on 19k hp healer with guard and tank, ready to assist. When you find yourself hitting for laughable numbers after getting taunted and NO option to switch target other but walk to new one, or burn 2 min CD and still walk, you will see how operatives are fine and how effective stealth as gap closer.

Edited by Maxkardinal
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On a similarly-geared Jugg, I can bust trinkets and drop a 7k Smash auto-crit, followed by a 3.5k Force Scream crit and a 3.5k execute crit, instantly closing the gap from 30m, without stealth.

 

You are Bad.

 

A surge-invested Ops/Scoundrel with similar gear level, using same adrenals and trinkets, does practicall the same thing to a pathetically frail Juggy in Shicho or Shien. 5k 4k 3k plus DoTs.

 

Opening up from stealth of course.

 

So what was the point of this chest thumping here?

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Stealth on Operative would become gap closer if cloack screen would be on 30 sec CD and granted you immunity from stealth breaking at least for 6 sec.

 

You can not get back on your target after knockback/pull as any onter melee can. If you dont understand how easly this would be abused in organized PvP - its not making class fine.

 

In PUGs well geared and well played Operatives/scoundrels are godlike. Especially in catching unguarded healers and udergeared bads, who dont understatnd how to conter them and there are people around who dont give a **** - randoms. But who care obout PUGs right?

 

Play one and you will feel the difference between 5500 opener, and 4900 BS on a healer with 14k hp and no guard, and 2400 opener and 2100 BS on 19k hp healer with guard and tank, ready to assist. When you find yourself hitting for laughable numbers after getting taunted and NO option to switch target other but walk to new one, or burn 2 min CD and still walk, you will see how operatives are fine and how effective stealth as gap closer.

 

Oho, here comes the "but they have teams guarding and healing" argument. Suddenly, we now move away from the 1vs1 balance, and conveniently start comparing ONE Ops against the whole enemy squad.

 

Two can play this game.

 

Bring in two ~ three Ops and burst the same target all at once from stealth, before the lone guardsman starts using AoE taunts. With the use of those same trinkets and adrenals mentioned in other posts, ofcourse. A mildly comparable gear level will yield at least 7k damage within the first 5 seconds from 3 different sources, a nice 21k damage distributed evenly to the guardsman and the healer for 10.5k damage each.

 

Problem solved, no?

 

[EDIT/PS]

 

...and 2400 opener and 2100 BS on 19k hp healer with guard and tank, ready to assist...

 

Guess why you guys are given the gift of stealth. I think it has something to do with this little thing called "tactical opportunity"... like, finding a moment where the "guard" and "tank" are preoccupied with something else. Happens pretty often in chaotic fights, too.

Edited by kweassa
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A surge-invested Ops/Scoundrel with similar gear level, using same adrenals and trinkets, does practicall the same thing to a pathetically frail Juggy in Shicho or Shien. 5k 4k 3k plus DoTs.

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

 

(no)

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Neither can any other Operative without a Marauder buff on top of biochem adrenal and trinket.

 

You are Bad.

 

You mean like, it's difficult to get a marauder in your team nowadays?

 

Which heavenly server do you play at! No marauders!! Woo Hoo!!! :)

 

Any more arguments that I can crush?

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Assassins have stealth, a gap closer, a (talented) pull and survivability.

 

Operatives have one of these.

 

You keep forgetting a very simple concept.

 

Operatives are a stealth ranged class.

* Have heals

 

While Assassins are a stealth melee class.

* Assassins don't have heals... etcetc

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Oho, here comes the "but they have teams guarding and healing" argument. Suddenly, we now move away from the 1vs1 balance, and conveniently start comparing ONE Ops against the whole enemy squad.

 

Two can play this game.

 

Bring in two ~ three Ops and burst the same target all at once from stealth, before the lone guardsman starts using AoE taunts. Problem solved.

If you are thinking this game is about 1v1 - you are having NOOOOOO clue at all.

 

I was comparing dps Ops abilities to execute its team role - deliver damage when and where its needed - against actions could be done to prevent it.

 

Actaully your phrase about mrauder 4 sec stealth is showing it all. You will be surprised but 4 sec is just enough to get back on target after knockback (when leap on CD), and tahts what melee clas needs - stay at your target.

 

I dont see point in arguing with you about pvp, you are missing the basics.

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You keep forgetting a very simple concept.

 

Operatives are a stealth ranged class.

* Have heals

 

While Assassins are a stealth melee class.

* Assassins don't have heals... etcetc

 

Heh,

 

I smell a "but I don't use ranged powers.. it's pathetic. Only the first opening burst means anything" argument coming from somewhere.

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Do the Pyros also have the luxury of remaining invisible when wants to? [/Quote]

 

So because a class has stealth, which I don't deny has a lot of utility in WZs, they should not have anything else?

 

Besides, here comes the "they nerfed the opening burst so bad" claim again. So just which point are we comparing it with? From the point when SWTOR first went live and they literally DID 3 shot enemies in bullshi* mega-spikes? If you're laying your standards from those days, then that would be a seriously bad, bad point to compare anything. [/Quote]

 

I'm saying that there was a time when Operatives did have crazy burst compared to other classes and so that argument had some merit. These days Operatives do not have crazy burst, either compared to their former selves or to other classes.

 

 

 

...for 4 seconds. Good comparison. :rolleyes:[/Quote]

 

Actually, when I use Disappearing Act it is normally only for 4-6s. Sometimes it is for longer, but often it isn't. Sentinels also get a speed boost with their ability and a damage reduction. Disappearing Act has a longer CD, more drawbacks and less perks - so if just reducing the CD to be in line with Force Camo is too much just give us another ability that is very similar to it. Heck, Smuggle is close enough to useless so just replace that with a short gap closer/escape tool and I don't think a single Scoundrel would complain.

 

 

 

Actually the problem is people want stuff for free. They go up PvP builds and classes, and then complain they're less efficient in PvE. Whoop dee too, what do you want, a do-all, be-all, end-all performance spec that lets you have all the mighty traits for PvP as well as sickly levels of PvE performance?

 

It is a very well known fact, with almost all MMOGs, that there are differences in PvP builds and PvE builds.

 

Drop the greed, man. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

It's one thing to have different PVE and PVP builds, it is another to make it so that a class doesn't have an endgame PVE build. If they advertised clearly that Scoundrels were a PVP only DPS class then, again, you might have a point but every other class has viable builds for both. If Scoundrels were the strongest PVP class then being the weakest PVE class might be justified, but they simply aren't - Shadows are better than them at both PVP and PVE. That is a balance issue, and is making a comparison which takes stealth out of the equation. Heck, if they make Dirty Fighting a competent sustained dps PVE build and left Scrapper as a PVP build then that would be fine but right now I don't believe you are right in saying that Scrapper should be both an average PVP build and a terrible PVE one.

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