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The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.17.2019 , 03:08 AM | #21
Honnestly, the one thing that bothers me the most with this arc, is Theron's kill option, as it was so obvious from the start that he was just doing his job, that was completely unnecessary...

We can try to come up with some believable explanation to fill the plot holes, but that is something that has consequences on everybody, and particularly people who did not let him die or kicked him out and who are romancing him.

Coming back to it because it's trully irritating, but there was absolutely no reason for Theron not to be part of the first cutscene in JUS on my JK (on the contrary he had every reason to be there actually as my JK always sided with the Republic and is engaged to Theron) but he was not, just because there was a possibility for him not to be part of the Alliance anymore, which only weakened that part for me...
In the same vein, was meeting some contacts really more important than going to save an old friend with his lover ???

tahol's Avatar


tahol
01.17.2019 , 03:13 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
If only there existed some interference-running technology that would temporary scramble potential listening channels...you know, like Minister of Intelligence used in the start of Imperial Agent's Chapter 3.
More people bring up different options Theron had, more upset I get. He got a lobotomy, that is the only explanation.

No, really Charles. What were you people thinking? Who hated Theron there? Lemme speak with them, I have few chosen words to share.

Noerra's Avatar


Noerra
01.17.2019 , 03:17 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulsutherland View Post
His actions resulted in the loss of a good portion of my powerbase ... he can rot on Nathema.
The way i see it these damages were part of things he was trying to prevent to happen. If he would not have acted, all that would still have had happened and we would have lost everything. Now only part of it happened before we were able to stop it, thanks to him.

My point was that those "reasons" that were put in here and there that justifies the killing option make no sense story or character wise. If and when he was not traitor he would have not actively made those evil plans work faster but he would have slowed them down with smart saboteuring. He would have not risked commander in Umbara but would have trapped/stunned them and then escaped. He would have modified the map from Copero to make it harder to find Zildrog. And he would have sent those coded messages or found other way to communicate with the team while turtling the order on their mission. Things he is shown to do in whole arch make as much sense than him rigging PC's toiletseat with plastic foil, posting nude pictures off PC to Hutt holonet and then leaving the alliance with gravestone to work as puppy trainer in Nar Shaddaa. He messes things up but he is not stupid.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.17.2019 , 03:35 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulsutherland View Post
His actions resulted in the loss of a good portion of my powerbase ... he can rot on Nathema.
And if he did nothing, you'd still have lost the EF and the Gravestone, but Odessen would've been destroyed and all the members of the Alliance, including yourself would probably have died there too, that would've been so much better i guess

Noerra's Avatar


Noerra
01.17.2019 , 03:54 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
And if he did nothing, you'd still have lost the EE and the Gravestone, but Odessen would've been destroyed and all the members of the Alliance, including yourself would probably have died there too, that would've been so much better i guess
Exactly what i was trying to say. And to also to point out, why kill the only person who actually noticed there was conspiracy against you? Next time you just get splatted, because there is no way Lana is gonna notice anything judging from how it's been this far.

Paulsutherland's Avatar


Paulsutherland
01.17.2019 , 03:55 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Noerra View Post
He is not stupid.
I'm sorry but the entire traitor arc leans towards him being a complete moron.

(Information from the Wiki as I don't want to replay the traitor arc any time soon.)

Links: Theron Shan, Order of Zildrog, Vinn Atrius, Zildrog

---

Iokath - He reignited the war on Iokath just to get close to the Order of Zildrog.

So by this point he's already identified the leader of the Order, spoken to him and he knows about the order being responsible for the uprisings across the galaxy.

---

Umbara - Vinn sends Theron to Umbara to pick up some crystals to prove himself useful to the Order of Zildrog.

Theron does so and this results in the death of many Umbarans who for whatever reason already have a grudge against the Alliance. So from their perspective, the Alliance just raided one of their convoy trains and killed several dozen of their soldiers.

---

Copero - Theron is sent to find a map ... then gives it to the Order of Zildrog.

This is where I made up my mind ... He and Valss were the only ones to know of the exact location for this supposed super weapon. Valss is killed leaving Theron the only one who knows the exact location ... instead of telling the Alliance, he gives the information to the Order of Zildrog, turning them from an annoyance into a serious threat.

In addition the Alliance has just got involved in a Chiss internal conflict.

---

Space Station - Theron and Lana

Theron and Lana have a super secret method of communication they invented on Rishi which only the two of them can understand ... That would have been useful to know... at the f*cking start of this mess! Couldn't he have just left Lana a coded message on a padd?!

As for the space station, we don't know how long the Order was operating from there, though they were there long enough to put their banners up all over the place ... couldn't he have maybe leaked the location to us?!

---

Nathema - Theron wakes up Zildrog.

Now at this point I'm unsure on how much time has passed since Copero to Nathema but it's been long enough for the Order to set up a base while drilling into a temple. so I'm not sure what Theron's thought process was here. Wait and see what happens?

Having made it this far the Order recruits other people who have a grudge against the Player (Agent in this case) and these people blindly get fed to wake up Zildrog. Watcher II Why?!

Then Zildrog wakes up and uses the gravestone to destroy a bulk of the Eternal Fleet before being destroyed taking the Gravestone with it.

Noerra's Avatar


Noerra
01.17.2019 , 04:04 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulsutherland View Post
I'm sorry but the entire traitor arc leans towards him being a complete moron.

Iokath - He reignited the war on Iokath just to get close to the Order of Zildrog.

So by this point he's already identified the leader of the Order, spoken to him and he knows about the order being responsible for the uprisings across the galaxy.

Umbara - Vinn sends Theron to Umbara to pick up some crystals to prove himself useful to the Order of Zildrog.

Theron does so and this results in the death of many Umbarans who for whatever reason already have a grudge against the Alliance. So from their perspective, the Alliance just raided one of their convoy trains and killed several dozen of their soldiers.

Copero - Theron is sent to find a map ... then gives it to the Order of Zildrog.

This is where I made up my mind ... He and Valss were the only ones to know of the exact location for this supposed super weapon. Valss is killed leaving Theron the only one who knows the exact location ... instead of telling the Alliance, he gives the information to the Order of Zildrog, turning them from an annoyance into a serious threat.

In addition the Alliance has just got involved in a Chiss internal conflict.

Space Station - Theron and Lana

Theron and Lana have a super secret method of communication they invented on Rishi which only the two of them can understand ... That would have been useful to know... at the f*cking start of this mess! Couldn't he have just left Lana a coded message on a padd?!

As for the space station, we don't know how long the Order was operating from there, though they were there long enough to put their banners up all over the place ... couldn't he have maybe leaked the location to us?!

Nathema - Theron wakes up Zildrog.

Now at this point I'm unsure on how much time has passed since Copero to Nathema but it's been long enough for the Order to set up a base while drilling into a temple. so I'm not sure what Theron's thought process was here. Wait and see what happens?

Having made it this far the Order recruits other people who have a grudge against the Player (Agent in this case) and these people blindly get fed to wake up Zildrog. Watcher II Why?!

Then Zildrog wakes up and uses the gravestone to destroy a bulk of the Eternal Fleet before being destroyed taking the Gravestone with it.
Maybe i should correct myself a little: he has not been stupid BEFORE. Everything you say here is exactly what i was talking about. They have written him to do things that would totally make sense if they were done by Koth but don't really fit into what Theron has been this far. I guess he really had that lobotomy.

Celise's Avatar


Celise
01.17.2019 , 04:15 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulsutherland View Post
Nathema - Theron wakes up Zildrog.

Now at this point I'm unsure on how much time has passed since Copero to Nathema but it's been long enough for the Order to set up a base while drilling into a temple. so I'm not sure what Theron's thought process was here. Wait and see what happens?

Having made it this far the Order recruits other people who have a grudge against the Player (Agent in this case) and these people blindly get fed to wake up Zildrog. Watcher II Why?!

Then Zildrog wakes up and uses the gravestone to destroy a bulk of the Eternal Fleet before being destroyed taking the Gravestone with it.
I don't recall Theron dressing up as a Gemini droid ordering Zildrog to destroy the fleet. If you are going to get angry, you may as well have all the facts in one place.

Theron did give the order the location of the vault, but that was the extend of his involvement. Gemini 16 wanted to be the only gemini droid in existence and identified itself as feminine programming, meaning she was always aiming for Parricide regardless since she wanted to eradicate her own sisters.

Vinn Atrius wanted Genocide, the entire destruction of the alliance and its people, so completely for his 2 dimensional revenge because his people were no longer strong any more, and in his own mind it was the outlander who caused all the problems when in fact Valkorion sent EE fleet out orginally to conduct raids on the empire and republic outposts to test their strength and predictably their reaction. The misguided fool believed his own lies and own sense of right.

Theron had nothing to do with what it is they wanted from Zildrog, infact while i'm sure he was aware they had plans on the alliance, i doubt even Theron knew the depths of their desires extended to something this destructive.

tahol's Avatar


tahol
01.17.2019 , 04:15 AM | #29
@paulsutherland

I answer this one time to you, so enjoy. I don't normally feed forum trolls.

Theron is not stupid. He never was, and he still isn't. Suddenly writers of SWTOR lost their mind and decided to trash his character. It is bad writing. How about we stop pretending that Theron Shan is a real person who is responsible for anything, because he isn't. He is a fictional character, thus he can't be responsible for what he does. The people who write him are the responsible ones. They created him. Theron didn't do anything. Writers did.

Now that we got that cleared, we can go to them wanting to write some drama. That is well and all. Traitor-arc has plenty of it. In order to get the drama they seemed to want, they trashed Therons character and made him to be a total idiot. To accomplish that they had to create a story so stupid and so full of plot holes a kidergardener can see them without any effort. People can of course rationalise that story to their advantage (like you just did) because it servers their biases, but it is still irrational, illogical nonsense from beginning to the end. It is simply bad writing. You can show that plot to anyone who is a professional writer and they will agree with me.

People like you are the reason we lost Theron for good. You embraced the steaming pile of turd that is the Nathema-storyline, just to get rid of Theron. Your hateboners are now taken care of, I would assume, but still you can't stop bringing it up and gloating about it. Theron is not in your game anymore, so what do you care? To top of that, he is not in our game either. So it is a win/win for you, right?

Yet only people I really want to blame about all this are the writers of this travesty. They should've known better. They once created a very good character called Theron Shan. For some reason some of the writers decided it is time to throw Theron under the bus. Because Theron Shan is an imaginary character, just pixels, they could do whatever they wanted to do with him, and this is what they wanted.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.17.2019 , 04:22 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulsutherland View Post
Iokath - He reignited the war on Iokath just to get close to the Order of Zildrog.

So by this point he's already identified the leader of the Order, spoken to him and he knows about the order being responsible for the uprisings across the galaxy.
They were already preparing to go back to fighting each other right at the end of KOTET, so they clearly didn't need Theron fot that.
And in the end as Vinn points out, that move from Theron made you an ally of the Empire or Republic, actually strengthening your own position.
And even if he knew who was the leader, that was not necessarily helpful if he didn't know exactly what they were planning and how they intended to do, nor how far their plan already was.

Quote:
Umbara - Vinn sends Theron to Umbara to pick up some crystals to prove himself useful to the Order of Zildrog.

Theron does so and this results in the death of many Umbarans who for whatever reason already have a grudge against the Alliance. So from their perspective, the Alliance just raided one of their convoy trains and killed several dozen of their soldiers.
Well, seems like that convoy was meant for the Empire (in my case) as many people on that train seemed mad at me for Acina's death.
Anyways, they were all trying to kill me even before that train crashed, so not gonna cry for them.

Quote:
Copero - Theron is sent to find a map ... then gives it to the Order of Zildrog.

This is where I made up my mind ... He and Valss were the only ones to know of the exact location for this supposed super weapon. Valss is killed leaving Theron the only one who knows the exact location ... instead of telling the Alliance, he gives the information to the Order of Zildrog, turning them from an annoyance into a serious threat.

In addition the Alliance has just got involved in a Chiss internal conflict.
Seems to me they already knew more or less where that map was and sending Theron was yet another test. They probably had other ways to retrieve that map even without him, but without him getting that map, we would not have known that we had to go to Nathema.
We don't even know what Valss role actually was, he may have been tasked with making sure Theron handed the map to the Order, or something completely different, but i guess we'll never know now.

Quote:
Space Station - Theron and Lana

Theron and Lana have a super secret method of communication they invented on Rishi which only the two of them can understand ... That would have been useful to know... at the f*cking start of this mess! Couldn't he have just left Lana a coded message on a padd?!

As for the space station, we don't know how long the Order was operating from there, though they were there long enough to put their banners up all over the place ... couldn't he have maybe leaked the location to us?!
Well, that one's a bit silly, my only guess is that if Theron used that secret code too early and / or too often, there was a chance for GEM-16 to find out and decipher it, which would've ruined Theron's efforts.

Quote:
Nathema - Theron wakes up Zildrog.
GEM-16 was the one who woke up Zildrog, not Theron, and IIRC, she was the one who actually knew how to do it.
People having a grudge against us seem to have made contact with Vinn way before Theron did, and it seems their grudge melted their brain as they clearly didn't saw that they would all die for that.