Just to get this out there in a post that can be linked…

 

tl;dr: The Reactive Warding is best in slot for any boss where torparse shows your damage taken is less than roughly 1850 DtPS. This value varies a bit from tank to tank (1850 is for shadows/assassins; other tanks would run between 1900 and 2k) and by gear level.

 

I wrote the following content originally as a reply to a PM regarding the two relics. The PM came from a shadow tank, so I'm using all of the shadow class bonuses. The math is equally applicable to other tanks, though the exact DtPS where the Reactive Ward becomes no longer BiS will be higher for other tanks (especially guardians/juggernauts). Keep that in mind. Also remember that the Reactive Ward relic becomes better as your gear improves, while the Shield Amplification relic becomes worse. Math time…

 

---

 

So, the Reactive Warding is actually the best tanking relic by far (even better than the Fortunate Redoubt). This seems weird though because the value it absorbs is so small. This is really just a simple case of most people completely overestimating the amount of damage that most bosses do.

 

To start our comparison, we need to represent the mitigation provided by the Reactive Warding relic as some sort of percentage scalar that we can tack onto an existing set of mitigation. The RW relic absorbs 1360 damage once every 43 seconds, which is a HPS of 31.63. In order to convert this into mitigation, we need to scale it by the post-mitigation DtPS. Since this varies from boss to boss, we'll leave it as a variable:

 

31.63 / dtps

 

The SA relic is a bit more complex. We're going to have to make some assumptions. Specifically, I'm going to assume full BiS gear and average DF+DP profile itemization. That gives us the following distribution: {defense -> 265, shield -> 1127, absorb -> 1329}. If I plug all of that into the formulae for various field values, I get the following (note: this isn't character sheet data; it includes Kinetic Bulwark, the accuracy debuff, etc):

 

{dr -> 0.444503, defense -> 0.344776, shield -> 0.605913, absorb -> 0.550969, resist -> 0.02, iresist -> 0.27, healBonus -> 0.03}

 

So, with a bit more plugging, we can get this into a full mitigation expression:

 

1 - (1 - 0.444503)(0.71776(1 - 0.344776)(1 - 0.605913*0.550969) + 0.243432(1 - 0.02)(1 - 0.605913*0.550969)) - 0.0388061(1 - 0.27)(1 - 0.02) = 0.709925

 

Reversing the absorb computation so that we can play around with the rating:

 

1 - (1 - 0.444503)(0.71776(1 - 0.344776)(1 - 0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329])) + 0.243432(1 - 0.02)(1 - 0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329]))) - 0.0388061(1 - 0.27)(1 - 0.02)

 

Now it's just algebra:

 

1 - ((1 - 0.444503) (0.71776 (1 - 0.344776) (1 - 0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329])) + 0.243432 (1 - 0.02) (1 -

0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329]))) + 0.0388061 (1 - 0.27) (1 - 0.02)) (1 - x) == (1 - (1 - 0.444503) (0.71776 (1 - 0.344776) (1 - 0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329 + 740])) + 0.243432 (1 - 0.02) (1 - 0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329 + 740]))) - 0.0388061 (1 - 0.27) (1 - 0.02)) (6/23) + (1 - (1 - 0.444503) (0.71776 (1 - 0.344776) (1 -

0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329])) + 0.243432 (1 - 0.02) (1 - 0.605913*(0.0443977 + 0.04 + absorb[1329]))) - 0.0388061 (1 - 0.27) (1 - 0.02)) (1 - 6/23)

 

What we're solving for here is the equivalent percentage reduction in damage we get from 740 absorb for 6 seconds out of every 23 when we're already in full Dread Forged. This value turns out to be roughly 1.727%.

 

Now, we run a secondary algebra problem to see exactly how much DtPS would be required to make the Reactive Warding relic worse than this. Remember, lower DtPS increases the percentage value of the RW relic:

 

0.01727 == 31.63/dtps

 

The value of DtPS is exactly 1831.94. In other words, for any post-mitigation DtPS of 1831.94 or less, the Reactive Warding mitigates more than the Shield Amplification relic does. For any post-mitigation value in excess of that, go with the Shield Amplification.

 

As of right now, the only 8 man boss with a post-mitigation DtPS over 1831.94 is Nefra, and even then, clever use of cooldowns will generally drop that value below the threshold. NiM Nefra will almost certainly be over 2k post-mit, but since the PTS damage levels aren't final, we can't say for sure.

what does this mean for the arkanian reactive warding with the lower internal cd?

what does this mean for the arkanian reactive warding with the lower internal cd?

 

Same idea, just substitute 740/23 = 32.17 HPS instead of 31.63. This means the break-even point for the DF SA and the Ark RW is 1862.99 DPS.

Hmm based on the calculations use, DF RW is 1360 / 43 = 31.63 dtps, so Ark RW would be 740 / 23 = 32.17 dtps

 

DF 31.63 / 0.01727 = 1831.5 ( KBN put .94, but the division gives .4997, so I'm not sure if it's a typo)

 

Ark 32.17 / 0.01727 = 1862.77

 

--------------------

 

Hey KBN, I'm not sure how familiar you are with X-Boson's (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1yO39E99OmdGxJZlFVQy1KVkVEUVZGVXViYUFQdWc&usp=drive_web#gid=0 and https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1yO39E99OmdEJtTFI3ZlUycXFJZ3dRV1l1bF9aaGc#gid=0) and Oofalong's work (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkzUO0ns_bnMdGQ2b0NIX3BLcXlwY0ZNMURqN0VHWUE&usp=drive_web#gid=6) on DPS relic procs.

 

Taking account the boss hit rate and the miss % might give a slightly more accurate proc rate than using the default +3s ICD.

When it comes to minimizing the damage taken over a two-minute interval, I won't argue with your math, it's solid; the Reactive Warding relic is best in slot for reducing damage taken. When it comes to practical tanking however, i find myself disliking it for a very simple reason: the other relics, with shorter internal cooldowns, present a more even (and therefore more manageable) damage profile to your healers. I view the 1350 damage mitigated as being equivalent to one or two ticks from a HoT, and as some who heals a lot in addition to tanking, I'd tell the tank to give me a smoother damage profile that made me cast an extra HoT every 40 seconds any day.

When it comes to minimizing the damage taken over a two-minute interval, I won't argue with your math, it's solid; the Reactive Warding relic is best in slot for reducing damage taken. When it comes to practical tanking however, i find myself disliking it for a very simple reason: the other relics, with shorter internal cooldowns, present a more even (and therefore more manageable) damage profile to your healers. I view the 1350 damage mitigated as being equivalent to one or two ticks from a HoT, and as some who heals a lot in addition to tanking, I'd tell the tank to give me a smoother damage profile that made me cast an extra HoT every 40 seconds any day.

 

I guarantee that you cannot perceive the difference as a healer. If I did a double-blind study with you, where you healed me through some content with the RW relic a few times, then you healed me through the same content with the SA relic a few times, and neither of us were aware of which one I was using, you would not be able to accurately determine which one was in use.

 

Of course, that's all hypothetical, since the relics have different buff icons and visual effects, so it's pretty much impossible to set this up, but you get the picture. The difference between the two relics is very, very small. Well below what can be perceived through mere examination by either healer or tank.

What does that mean for the Conqueror Reactive Warding that includes +20 absorb? Or does it just depend on where you are in the diminishing returns curve for absorb?

 

Wasn't sure how to recalculate with your formulas since absorb[1329] doesn't mean anything to me, I just assumed it did a reverse lookup to calculate the %

What does that mean for the Conqueror Reactive Warding that includes +20 absorb? Or does it just depend on where you are in the diminishing returns curve for absorb?

 

Well, on the surface that's pretty easy to calculate: just up the absorb value and compute the mitigation increase similar to with the SA relic, adding the value into the baseline RW HPS. There's a tiny inaccuracy in that, but it shouldn't matter too much.

 

The deeper answer though is that PvP is tricky. It has much lower damage taken per second than PvE…except when it doesn't. Long-period relics are probably a lot less valuable than short-period relics, and the rate limit on the RW is twice as long as the SA. I honestly don't have a good way to quantify this.

 

Wasn't sure how to recalculate with your formulas since absorb[1329] doesn't mean anything to me, I just assumed it did a reverse lookup to calculate the %

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6048293#post6048293

 

absorb[x] is simply the percentage (in decimal form) given by "x" rating in the absorb stat.

The deeper answer though is that PvP is tricky. It has much lower damage taken per second than PvE…except when it doesn't. Long-period relics are probably a lot less valuable than short-period relics, and the rate limit on the RW is twice as long as the SA. I honestly don't have a good way to quantify this.

 

For pvp, I would say that Reactive Warden is almost mandatory. The reason is that while it has a long lockout, its proc works against all damage. The pvp you could be facing a pair of Tactics VG one match and a bunch of MM snipers the next match. Heck having any relic at all that works against the former is a boon in itself.

 

Its more of a question of SA vs FR, and honestly I would take SA almost every time since the vast majority of the time FR procs are not going to cause you to actually dodge a meaningful attack that you otherwise would not have. Plus the current meta leans far more towards specs with higher amounts of F/T than M/R, so the value of defense is further decreased.

Its more of a question of SA vs FR, and honestly I would take SA almost every time since the vast majority of the time FR procs are not going to cause you to actually dodge a meaningful attack that you otherwise would not have. Plus the current meta leans far more towards specs with higher amounts of F/T than M/R, so the value of defense is further decreased.

 

I'm sure it will come down to class discrepancies, but I think we should point out that the SA relic would not do a thing for attacks that auto-crit, compared to the FR being able to help in those situation (if I'm not mistaken ind the def vs. acc roll)

Which M/R attacks can auto-crit? I suppose Snipe with Laze Target... can't think of any others offhand.

I'm sure it will come down to class discrepancies, but I think we should point out that the SA relic would not do a thing for attacks that auto-crit, compared to the FR being able to help in those situation (if I'm not mistaken ind the def vs. acc roll)

 

Auto-crits aren't all that common. In general, current PvP tank theory crafting assumes a 35% crit rate across the board, encompassing both auto-crits and natural crit chance. This seems to line up fairly well with player logs, though it will have to be reduced somewhat when 2.7 drops due to the Smash nerfs.

 

Here's the thing though: melee/ranged attacks are very, very rare in PvP. Well not "rare" per se, but it's very uncommon relative to force/tech attacks. This is the exact opposite of PvE, where melee/ranged is more common. Because of this, the FR relic really isn't that exciting. I mean, if you happen to know that you're facing a lot of marksman snipers and carnage marauders, sure, pick up the FR. Otherwise, the SA is probably a safer bet.

What about the new pvp trinket : Berserker Relic of Reactive Warding

 

It is as good as the arkanian equivalency however it does absorb 1480 all 40seonds while the arkanian absorbs 740 all 20seconds. Does that make a difference regarding spikyness?

 

Furthermore i wonder whether FR was really better than SA for each tankclass.

 

Are there RW trinkets that stack with a second RW trinket?

 

Would be great to see the influence on dtps for each trinket regarding the overall dtps you get.

Example : 1500dtps --- Relic A : 55dtps Relic B 57dtps

2000dtps ---Relic A : 56dtps Relic B 56dtps

and so on

 

Maybe you have to implement the defbudget also. I think dmg ratios are not that important because the more elementary/internal dmg the better RW becomes

Edited March 26, 2014 by Methoxa

Dipstik did the work a while back to look at each relic type for each class in terms of the DtPS it prevents. I think that he updated that work for 2.6 in one of his recent threads.

 

The FR is better than the SA primarily because its static stats are better.

i calced the squish for each relic and the dtps pre mitigation required to beat the rw relics. for df/dp average.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6957897&postcount=74

Which M/R attacks can auto-crit? I suppose Snipe with Laze Target... can't think of any others offhand.

 

Tactics Vanguard's HiB, but both that and snipe are not serious damage.

 

Also think about it, FR is 5% defense chance 30% of the time. That's almost nothing, and from a pvp perspective you would never be able to tell the difference between when you had the proc and when you didn't

Edited March 26, 2014 by Zoom_VI

PVP: Can someone clarify this for me. So the Reactive Warding PVP relic absorbs 1360 damage for 6 seconds once every 40 seconds. I assume this is 1360 total damage over the course of 6 seconds, not every second? Or is it 1360*6 for a total of 8160 total mitigation every 40 seconds?

 

If it is indeed 1360 total damage absorbed, this is quite possibly the worst and most useless relic i've ever seen. My free auto-attack does 1500 damage lol. So basically I absorb an auto-attack's worth of damage every 40 seconds? Just lol.

Edited June 6, 2014 by revcrisis

PVP: Can someone clarify this for me. So the Reactive Warding PVP relic absorbs 1360 damage for 6 seconds once every 40 seconds. I assume this is 1360 total damage over the course of 6 seconds, not every second? Or is it 1360*6 for a total of 8160 total mitigation every 40 seconds?

 

Absorbs up to 1360 damage for up to 6 seconds, whichever comes first.

 

If it is indeed 1360 total damage absorbed, this is quite possibly the worst and most useless relic i've ever seen. My free auto-attack does 1500 damage lol. So basically I absorb an auto-attack's worth of damage every 40 seconds? Just lol.

 

Read the OP. You're basically coming into the conversation and asserting exactly the opposite of what was proven in the OP and then verified with posts later on.

 

1360 every 40 seconds isn't a lot of damage. However, you're looking at this and thinking that the other relics are better because you believe that they mitigate more damage than this. They do not. You're dramatically over-estimating the value of the Fortunate Redoubt and Shield Amplification relics, because they look awfully sexy. They're just not as good as they appear, and the math proves this.

 

So in other words, while 1360 every 40 seconds isn't a lot of damage, it's still more damage absorbed than the damage mitigated by 740 defense rating for 6 seconds every 20.

Interesting...

 

and here I thought I was BiS.

 

Now you said the difference for Jugs and Guardians is minimal?

Interesting...

 

and here I thought I was BiS.

 

Now you said the difference for Jugs and Guardians is minimal?

 

No actually, Guardians/Juggs and Vanguards/Powertechs get even less out of the Shield Amplification relic than Shadows/Assassins do. Quite a bit less, in fact. Now it's possible that, due to the defense emphasis, the Fortunate Redoubt relic may be slightly better than the Reactive Warding for Guardians/Juggs, but I doubt it. Even if it is though, the Reactive Warding will still be better than the Shield Amplification, which yields the following BiS relic selection for all three tanks: Reactive Warding and Fortunate Redoubt.

What about the new pvp trinket : Berserker Relic of Reactive Warding

 

It is as good as the arkanian equivalency however it does absorb 1480 all 40seonds while the arkanian absorbs 740 all 20seconds. Does that make a difference regarding spikyness?

 

Furthermore i wonder whether FR was really better than SA for each tankclass.

 

Are there RW trinkets that stack with a second RW trinket?

 

Would be great to see the influence on dtps for each trinket regarding the overall dtps you get.

Example : 1500dtps --- Relic A : 55dtps Relic B 57dtps

2000dtps ---Relic A : 56dtps Relic B 56dtps

and so on

 

Maybe you have to implement the defbudget also. I think dmg ratios are not that important because the more elementary/internal dmg the better RW becomes

 

Best bet would be Ephimeral Mending + Reactive Warding for a Vanguard/Powertech Tank in a ludicrously AoE heavy fight (as in, pretty much all damage taken in important areas is AoE, such as Brontes Nightmare)

 

Other than that, can't really do it (maybe a Focused Retribution for a Guard/Jugg Tank because it makes blade barricades + Focused/Enraged Defense heals bigger... but thats very, very, very, very, very situational and not recommended. Though it might work for NiM Brontes too...)

Edited June 9, 2014 by TACeMossie

Why would a Vanguard use a ephemeral mending relic? as a tank I am not healing allies.. So I am unsure why we would use it

Why would a Vanguard use a ephemeral mending relic? as a tank I am not healing allies.. So I am unsure why we would use it

 

The vanguard passive does a self heal when hit by an AoE attack with a rate limiter of 3 seconds. When this happens, it has a 50% chance to proc the Ephemeral mending relic on yourself, so you get an extra ~900 heals every ~23 seconds thanks to that relic. The Reactive warding is ~1480 extra 'health' every ~43 seconds, so it shows how good the ephemeral mending relic is on fights where it actually works (so brontes and... yeah, just brontes. Maybe the last phase of dread council too, if the healers are happy with you using 1 relic for most of the fight)

 

In fact, back in patch 2.4 BiS for shadow tanks was Ephemeral Mending + Reactive Warding (lol 6 seconds of invulnerability), because all the self heals they did to themself made it proc almost on cooldown.

Edited June 10, 2014 by TACeMossie

So what is the best ones to have if not doing Brontus... then

So what is the best ones to have if not doing Brontus... then

 

As said in the OP, Fortunate Redoubt (defense proc) and Reactive Warding (damage shield proc)

 

The other major reason the heal proc relic on a vanguard is best for brontes is the last phase has a total of 0 melee/ranged damage, so you can't defend against anything - and thats where all the healing is needed, and also where all the AoE damage is going out.