This post is way off! In competitive pvp tanks are very important for protecting your allies, especially healers. Usually a Guardian/Jugg fills that role, but I've seen Shadows do it all right. True vanguard tanks are exceptionally rare (because everyone is playing assault).

 

You seem to be thinking of tanking in pvp as a solo job instead of a team support role. In other words, speccing tank so you last longer and don't die as often. That's not the right way to think of it at all.

 

I was actually responding to a post claiming that guardian tanks were somehow OP in PvP, which they are absolutely not. I actually agree with you - tanks are not useless in PvP - but they're often not highly valued by players because they don't do well in PvP combat. Their primary virtues are guarding the healer and being able to stick around a little longer to hit interrupts and stuns when defending an objective point. I think most groups would rather than extra healer or dps instead, since they can both defend and attack.

It basically comes down to the individual playing. We have a vanguard and a guardian tank in my guild. I have a shadow but she is dps. Both our tanks know what they are doing and we have an awesome smuggler who is a healer.

 

We rarely have problems running heroics and flashpoints but we each know our responsibility and we back one another up when we can. We each have learned to play our toons and learned how to back each other up.

 

A tank, dps, healer is only as good as the player and them knowing their character.

It basically comes down to the individual playing. We have a vanguard and a guardian tank in my guild. I have a shadow but she is dps. Both our tanks know what they are doing and we have an awesome smuggler who is a healer.

 

We rarely have problems running heroics and flashpoints but we each know our responsibility and we back one another up when we can. We each have learned to play our toons and learned how to back each other up.

 

A tank, dps, healer is only as good as the player and them knowing their character.

For the most part I agree completely. At 50 each tank can be as good as another, if the players have the same level of understanding of their classes.

 

Pre-50 is where a lot of the problems lie. Guardian/jugg is much better at single targets, shadow/jedi equiv and power tech/jedi equiv are geared more towards aoe, with shadows/equiv having more ranged pulls and power techs/equiv having more raw ranged output damage.

 

As a healer, 9 times out of 10 the easiest runs I have are ones with jugg/guard or PT/equiv.

@OP

 

This article u linked is still relevant. Most all of the info is accurate even in 1.7.

 

Shadow Tanks

+ resilience is the best defensive cooldown for endgame PvE. lets the ops group work around mechanics straight up (NiM EC included).

+can stealth battle rez and/or use "OUT OF COMBAT" self-heal (this is straight up BROKE OP duh)

+best at holding aggro (both single and AOE)

-most spiky (skilled/over-geared healers can keep up tho)

 

Vanguard Tanks

+Best mitigation tank (white damage only)

+Best AOE aggro holding tank (lots of high damaging AOE abilities)

+Top DPS tank (usually not a big deal, but can be if <insert boring,specific examples>)

-the HoT cooldown is not all that great.

-Folds to force/tech damage more so than the other tanks because the ONLY way to coop with it is a single cooldown.

 

Guardian Tanks

+Better collection of defensive cooldowns than Vanguards

+slightly better at holding single-target aggro than Vanguards

+Broken OP in PvP (all other tanks are a negative to the team).

~Funnest tank to play (fact )

-good luck holding AOE aggro

-outshined by Shadows and Vanguards in practice very slightly tho

 

Summary: Shadows are broken due to stealth (seriously, not exaggerating). Abuse'em if u want to be a god. Vanguards are easy-mode + best at mitigation. Guardians are the worse in practice but fun.

 

-brought to u by a Dread Slayer / Warstalker x3 / Deep Wriggler x 3 ******. no need to thank me noobs

 

I would argue that shadows are the highest Dpsing tank. but i wont swear on it, ive never seen a vang out DPS my shadow. as well vanguards handle large quantities of force/tech damage better than any other tank because of their superior armor rating/ highest damage reduction, 5 seconds of 100% immunity does not compair since thats only enough time to defend against ~3 attacks.

 

otherwise fairly accurate summary.

Those 5 seconds are used when the excrement hits the fan. One does no go around merrily activating Resilience all over the place. You keep it available so you can buy time and live in critical situations.

Those 5 seconds are used when the excrement hits the fan. One does no go around merrily activating Resilience all over the place. You keep it available so you can buy time and live in critical situations.

 

That maybe true in the lower Ops and Flashpoints but in more demanding Ops (Denova NM atm) you have to use Resiliance not only as "oh ****" button, but use it to catch the huge Force /Tech attacks. Like the Dot from Kephess or the Jump from Z+T or in the Firebrand and Stormcaller encounter when you planted the double Destruction debuff to your mates and the healer is keeping them up and cannot heal only the tank.

 

In General being a good Shadow Tank (which is the only tanking class i can really speak about) is about knowing when and which damage is incoming. For example using Resilience during defensive phase at Firebrand and Stormcaller is just silly because it will do nothing for you. Using your defense Cooldowns proactivly to keep you at a health sweetspot (100% health is a waste of selfheal) is a big part in Shadow Tanking and stealthing when the excrements have allready hit the fan is just saving you a lot of Rep costs.

Yes, I've popped Resilience yesterday when tanking Z&T. But then again, I *was* tanking as full on dps.

As the OP example of HM EC, I love healing the Kephess fight with shadow tanks. I can pretty much set back and relax as a healer on this fight with two well played Shadows. Not difficult with a vanguard or guardian either, but with a shadow, I have no worries.

 

What is your Shadow Tank doing differently, then?

 

The way it was explained to me was that Shadows compensate their lower (even with Combat Technique) armor with the increased shield chance granted by Kinetic barrier. In encounters where those charges are eaten up too quickly though (basically any boss that has frequent hitting melee attacks, like EC Kephess and supposedly Zorn) that defense crumbles, and the Shadow is at a severe disadvatage compared to the other tanks. What am I missing?

 

---

 

Also, on another note, what is the official word on the 2.0 changes? I have read the patch notes, but of course I am not sure I evaluated them correctly. The way I understood for example the Shadow changes was that it's mitigation actually got worse (the 20% armor buff is removed, and Kinetic Barrier got a longer cooldown), but in turn she got other gimmicks like increase to the healing recieved and an encounter specific way to buff the healing output in general. Which seems to put the Shadow even further into the 'tricky and gimmicky' direction compared to the 'I just shrug it off' attitude of Guardian and Vanguard.

The way it was explained to me was that Shadows compensate their lower (even with Combat Technique) armor with the increased shield chance granted by Kinetic barrier. In encounters where those charges are eaten up too quickly though (basically any boss that has frequent hitting melee attacks, like EC Kephess and supposedly Zorn) that defense crumbles, and the Shadow is at a severe disadvatage compared to the other tanks. What am I missing?

 

You're forgetting that a great Shadow tank doesn't just rely on their "standard" mitigation. A good Shadow tank is going to keep up KW, use TkT as much as possible to maximize self healing, and all of those other things that you do all of the time. A *great* Shadow, on the other hand, is going to know how and when to abuse the living hell out of Deflection and, especially, Resilience. Deflection is on a lower CD than Saber Ward and does pretty much the same thing; Resilience is on a ~35 second functional CD (thanks to Elusiveness) and can and should be used to ignore large F/T attacks (like Kephess's huge Internal DoT). Essentially, you're missing the way a properly played Shadow is going to completely ignore large swathes of incoming damage through judicious use of CDs.

 

Also, on another note, what is the official word on the 2.0 changes? I have read the patch notes, but of course I am not sure I evaluated them correctly. The way I understood for example the Shadow changes was that it's mitigation actually got worse (the 20% armor buff is removed, and Kinetic Barrier got a longer cooldown), but in turn she got other gimmicks like increase to the healing recieved and an encounter specific way to buff the healing output in general. Which seems to put the Shadow even further into the 'tricky and gimmicky' direction compared to the 'I just shrug it off' attitude of Guardian and Vanguard.

 

You're forgetting a few things.

 

First off, yes, KW got its CD increased (from 12 to 15 seconds), but it also got the number of charges increased from 8 to 15, which is a massive net gain. You're also forgetting how Kinetic Bulwark is going to provide a pretty impressive amount of additional Absorb over time (each KW stack you lose generates 1 KB stack, up to a max of 8, and they stick around until you use KW again). You're also overvaluing the 20% armor bonus from Stasis that got removed: CT already provides 115% increased armor, which means Shadow are going from 235% total armor to 215% total armor, which isn't a major decrease (it ends up being ~8.5% less total armor and a loss of roughly 1% K/E DR. Shadows are also getting what is, quite possibly, the best survivability CD in the game in Battle Readiness; currently, it's just a 10% heal with a pittance of increased self healing for 15 seconds, but, after 2.0, it's going to heal for *more* (15%), increase self healing *even more* (35% increased proc chance along with the existing 100% increased healing from proc), and provide 25% additive DR (which, combined with Shadow K/E DR, translates into the same equivalent survivability contribution as Warding Call) and it still lasts 15 seconds (pretty much everything except for a VGs Reactive Shield is 12 seconds or less).

 

It should also be mentioned that Shield/Absorb got buffed *massively*: all K/E damage attacks (which means all existing M/R attacks and a large majority of F/T attacks) can be shielded. As such, the massive Shield/Absorb advantage that Shadows have, and will *still* have, means that Shadows get more out of the Shield changes than the other classes do, even VGs.

 

A lot of people got hung up on the removal of 20% additional armor (which was a pittance anyways) and the increased CD on KW without actually paying attention the *massive plethora* of huge outright buffs that Shadows got. The buffs Shadows got are indeed *huge* and, honestly, I think Shadows are in an even better position than they currently are, especially now that Shadows won't just fall over in the presence of F/T K/E heavy fights.

What is your Shadow Tank doing differently, then?

 

http://www.thewalkingcarpets.com/forum/m/3065305/viewthread/5383418-shadow-tanking-primer

 

Well this was written by my favorite tank in the game (only judged by that I have done so much endgame content with him). The player is also my favorite gunslinger and Focus spec Sentinel. Again, so may not have anything to what he is doing, but more to do with us playing so much together that I know when I need to really focus healing on him and when I can largely ignore him and top off the rest of the raid.

A *great* Shadow, on the other hand, is going to know how and when to abuse the living hell out of Deflection and, especially, Resilience.

Maybe you could give an example on how to 'abuse' Deflection, seeing as it is a 2 Minute CD still? Say for EC Kephess.

 

http://www.thewalkingcarpets.com/forum/m/3065305/viewthread/5383418-shadow-tanking-primer

 

Well this was written by my favorite tank in the game (only judged by that I have done so much endgame content with him). The player is also my favorite gunslinger and Focus spec Sentinel. Again, so may not have anything to what he is doing, but more to do with us playing so much together that I know when I need to really focus healing on him and when I can largely ignore him and top off the rest of the raid.

 

Sadly, while that primer IS informative, it does not address the one issue I was curious about: How to deal with those situations where Kinetic Ward is stripped off early. It only mentiones that this is when Shadows are in trouble.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Jurugu

Sadly, while that primer IS informative, it does not address the one issue I was curious about: How to deal with those situations where Kinetic Ward is stripped off early. It only mentiones that this is when Shadows are in trouble.

I will ask him and get back to you. However, that may be one of the times you need the healer to be throwing big heals at you. I will reply when he gets back with me, if Kitru doesn't answer it first. Edited March 15, 2013 by mikebevo

Maybe you could give an example on how to 'abuse' Deflection, seeing as it is a 2 Minute CD still? Say for EC Kephess.

 

You abuse Deflection by being able to use it 50% more often than Saber Ward. Essentially, if you're sitting on Deflection with it recharged, you're wasted it (the same can be said of all tank CDs though). You abuse it by actually using it as much as possible (though this doesn't mean that you should use it on low damage phases). Keep in mind, Deflection isn't as massively game breaking as Resilience is; abusing the living hell out of it is something that every Shadow tank should try to do, but it's not nearly as requisite to the whole "amazing Shadow tank" concept as abusing the hell out of Resilience.

I will ask him and get back to you. However, that may be one of the times you need the healer to be throwing big heals at you. I will reply when he gets back with me, if Kitru doesn't answer it first.

He says listen to Kitru, Kitru knows more about it than him. Edited March 15, 2013 by mikebevo

Sadly, while that primer IS informative, it does not address the one issue I was curious about: How to deal with those situations where Kinetic Ward is stripped off early. It only mentiones that this is when Shadows are in trouble.

 

KW stripped off early? That *could* be a problem if it happened often.

Could someone link a post where Kitru looks at the positive and negative sides with each tank class and compare them, like in a list, not in a wall of text (even thought I like his/her/it's wall of text).

Maybe you could give an example on how to 'abuse' Deflection, seeing as it is a 2 Minute CD still? Say for EC Kephess.

 

A nice moment to use Deflection is when you are kiting the lightning pillars on stormcaller/firebrand, then you will negate ALL damage and can just run around without any need of healing until it runs out. If you are not tank swapping you will not have it up for every such phase but it's a nice thing.

One feature for the VG Tank that really has not been mentioned in this thread is "Hold the Line" as it is a wonderful edition to my VG tanking arsenal. Popping it before a trash pull when i am about to use Mortar Volley to prevent a knockback interruption. Or using having to run a grenade quickly out of the way on Titan 6. It's great tool. However by far it greatest use in a boss fight is the final boss in Scum and Villain when he does his force "pull" aka throw you around like a little b****. I have tanked Dread Master Styrak so many times In SM and HM i've memorized his attack patterns and have timed my hold the lines perfectly i almost never suffer the pull anymore (except when he does his enrage at end oinly becuase the 5 secs runs out). But since he follows 2 basic patterns, once you figure out which one, which happens at the start of the fight anyhow, my vanguard always Main tanks this guy and always has the easiest time tanking compared to guardians and shadows in our guild. Edited July 2, 2013 by JowyBlight

I read that Shadow Tanks are quite difficult to heal in Hard Mode.

 

Is this true ?

Edited July 5, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

Shadows are currently the most survivable tank in the game, high levels of mitigation coupled with 250-300 HPS in self heals is considerable in nearly all the fights and makes shadows require the least healing of all the tanks.

 

I have to disagree. Shadows/Assassins take overall, the least amount of total damage, because of their defense and cooldowns they get hit less often, which equates to less damage taken overall through the course of a fight. However, when a shadow DOES get hit, he gets hit for MORE than when a Guardian or Vanguard gets hit, so the spike damage is a lot more, and therefore Shadows require more attentive healing than a Vanguard or Guardian. (Also, jump into a big trash mob sometime, and watch your Kinetic/Dark Charges get used up before the ability to reapply comes off cooldown.... oh boy, it hurts!)

 

...on the downside shadows require a bit more experience to heal in order to anticipate their spiking.

 

That statement (is correct) and kind of disproves everything you said immediately before it.

 

guardians have a large number of powerful cooldowns at their disposaland when they are played correctly are *arguably* the best tanks, the guardian is the second most survivable tanking AC. Guardians are also *arguably* the most difficult to play properly and require alot of skillto use efficiently.

 

I'd agree with most of that, except I think, right now, Guardians are the most survivable tank. They have a ton of cooldowns, heavy armor mitigation, and none of the spiky problems that Shadows have.

 

vanguards are the smoothest tanks in terms of spikyness, but are the least survivable. they are by far the easiest tank to use effectively.

 

Having both a Vanguard and Assassin tank... in about the same level of gear (mix of 69s/72s, stat'd for mitigation over endurance).... I would say their survivability is about the same quite honestly, but the Vanguard is easier to heal because there are no surprises with spike damage.

 

In 2.0 shadows become even more survivable, vanguards become must more usefull in active mitigation, and guardians seem to be lagging behind.

 

Actually, with 2.0...... Shadows became LESS survivable, and Guardians became arguably the FoTM tank.

 

So my personal preference is a shadow, but there is no clear best tank all tanks are good at everything and id have to say tanking is probably the most balanced thing in this game

 

The key word up there is "personal preference"..... This game is a GAME, and games are about having fun. So to the OP, I would spend less time worrying about which tank is the "best" and spend more time trying to figure out what about each of the 3 tank classes has the most that appeals to YOU. The more you enjoy playing the character, the better you will be at it, and the more fun you will have.

Erm... Ocho-Quatro, I'd just like to point out that the person you are quoting posted in March. As in, BEFORE 2.0 actually came out. So, they kind of didn't get to see the full view of how things changed. They didn't know that the operations were going to be balanced around large single hit spikes, which is the main problem with the shadow's RNG failings.

Erm... Ocho-Quatro, I'd just like to point out that the person you are quoting posted in March. As in, BEFORE 2.0 actually came out. So, they kind of didn't get to see the full view of how things changed. They didn't know that the operations were going to be balanced around large single hit spikes, which is the main problem with the shadow's RNG failings.

 

Curse you thread rez!!!!!!

 

/derp

I read that Shadow Tanks are quite difficult to heal in Hard Mode.

 

Is this true ?

 

yes.

 

unless they are very VERY good at juggling cooldowns, then they are fine. but of all three tank archetypes, they are the ones that give me the biggest pause when I don't know them and just get them as a pug, because in personal experience, they are the hardest to play well, because of being so dependant on active cooldowns.

 

that said, skilled shadow is magical. I healed an assassin through 50 hardmode while leveling back when 2.0 just dropped and dude was in lvl 45 blues. I thought I was toast. and then he proceeded to be one of the best, easiest tanks outside of my guild that I've healed so far.

I read that Shadow Tanks are quite difficult to heal in Hard Mode.

 

Is this true ?

 

Yes, they require a more skilled healer than the other tanks. To put it in simple terms, Vanguards/Guardians will constantly take a medium amount of damage, while Shadows will alternate between taking very little damage and taking *insane* amounts of damage. The total healing required might be similar, but the Vanguard/Guardian is more predictable, and thus easier to heal.

 

For Vanguards/Guardians, the healer basically goes "healing...healing...healing"

 

While for Shadows, it's more like "hey, I don't have to do anything... still don't have to do anything... HOLY **** HE JUST LOST 90% HEALTH IN 2 SECONDS"

I have pretty much given up on my shadow tank. Too unpredictable.

 

Hell i had a healer tell me the other day the combat sent who picked up threat after i karked it was easier to heal than me.

 

Fail.