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I miss the days when MMOs were wonderous...


TheBBP

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Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

Edited by TheBBP
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Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new. I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

 

I once felt like you do, but for WoW because WoW was my first MMO.

 

Yes I think it was because we were new and noobs that made it a great experience. We didn't know what to expect, we just accepted this MMO world for what it is. And it was this magical place that kept wowing you.

 

And no, I don't think we can ever go back to those days, because back then we were like children experiencing new things.

Now, we are grown up adults living in the adult world with consequences. We cannot see MMOs with a child's eyes anymore.

 

However, I am amazed that so far, no company can make an MMO that wows us like how it wowed us the first time.

 

Just because I was wowed by Baldur's Gate 2, doesn't mean I will never be wowed by another RPG.

I have recently been wowed by games like Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Crusader Kings, even Faster Than Light.

 

Why is there no new MMO that can wow me the way other games have in other genres? Why is the MMO market so stagnant?

Edited by ConradLionhart
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I dont think you will ever capture the amazement you had for everquest in any new or future mmo. Simply put it was the first 3d mmo in the history of mmos, and most peoples first of the genre they played. It had things that people remember fondly, but lets be real at the time was annoying, like boat rides, and corpse runs etc. For me no other game outside of DAOC will ever give me that feeling.

 

DAOC was the next in line, and while it still wasnt as exciting to play as the first time I played everquest it was a close second. I loved DAOC because it was gritty (played midgard mainly) and had so many classes and races and realms to play. But anyway back on topic, I dont think there is anything any game company can do now to ever fill someone of our generations mmo excitement anymore (short of maybe a virtual mmo).

 

I know myself I have played pretty much every mmo under the sun, but msot games are just rehashes with different looks to me. SWTOR grabs me because of its theme, if it wasnt star wars i highly doubt I would still be playing.

Edited by gofortheko
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I once felt like you do, but for WoW because WoW was my first MMO.

 

Yes I think it was because we were new and noobs that made it a great experience. We didn't know what to expect, we just accepted this MMO world for what it is. And it was this magical place that kept wowing you.

 

And no, I don't think we can ever go back to those days, because back then we were like children experiencing new things.

Now, we are grown up adults living in the adult world with consequences. We cannot see MMOs with a child's eyes anymore.

 

However, I am amazed that so far, no company can make an MMO that wows us like how it wowed us the first time.

 

Just because I was wowed by Baldur's Gate 2, doesn't mean I will never be wowed by another RPG.

I have recently been wowed by games like Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Crusader Kings, even Faster Than Light.

 

Why is there no new MMO that can wow me the way other games have in other genres? Why is the MMO market so stagnant?

I dont think you will ever capture the amazement you had for everquest in any new or future mmo. Simply put it was the first 3d mmo in the history of mmos, and most peoples first of the genre they played. It had things that people remember fondly, but lets be real at the time was annoying, like boat rides, and corpse runs etc. For me no other game outside of DAOC will ever give me that feeling.

 

DAOC was the next in line, and while it still wasnt as exciting to play as the first time I played everquest it was a close second. I loved DAOC because it was gritty (played midgard mainly) and had so many classes and races and realms to play. But anyway back on topic, I dont think there is anything any game company can do now to ever fill someone of our generations mmo excitement anymore (short of maybe a virtual mmo).

 

I know myself I have played pretty much every mmo under the sun, but msot games are just rehashes with different looks to me. SWTOR grabs me because of its theme, if it wasnt star wars i highly doubt I would still be playing.

 

Sadly, I think that you are both right. It was incredible because it was new to us. I look back fondly on things like the boat rides. It made the world seem more alive to me. I think that MMOs are a tricky business. Especially Star Wars MMOs. Star Wars fans are already quite finicky.

 

Single-player experiences are another story. There are still games that dazzle me. I have been following Star Citizen (a quasi-MMO). They are building something pretty innovative there. I wish that there was more of a courage to innovate in the MMO space.

 

I know that SWTOR or any other MMO won't likely give me that feeling, but things might feel a lot more grand if there was a bit more sandbox to go with our themepark.

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A wonderful thread if you ask me. This is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about some years ago. For me it all began with my first MMO which was good old Ultima Online and I played that for straight 10 years (sounds weirder now that I wrote it than it felt). That alone might tell you how much it amazed me and stunned me for many years - but as any MMO even this amazement has faded, without switching the game. So it cannot have something to do with that or with a specific game "missing" things, at least not from my perspective since I never switched it and the feeling still disappeared. One might ponder if it was all because I was so used to it - but that was not the case either, since after those 10 years I did switch a lot and was in many many betas (Everquest 2 among them btw) - but none has stunned me or had an equally charming appeal to me. Partially that was because I was not willing to sacrifice the huge amount of roleplay we had going in UO, part of that certainly can never be explained properly and some parts of it I have discovered after pondering, I think.

 

What really makes a game shine and stand out, amaze you and drag you in - I for one had a good amount of that reappearing when I began to play SW:TOR with my spouse. That amazed me and I pondered and thought about why it happened here but didn't happen in EQ2, in Eve Online, in DaOC, in Neocron 2 or any other MMO since Ultima Online. Then I started to compare those and eventhough SW:TOR is much much different from UO it does have certain core features that link both, and first of all that is: having an interesting lore and universe. I remember that back in UO I used to frequent a website about it and even printed out the lore stuff from there as well as some newbie guides - and I found myself archiving lots of lore content and spending many many hours on Wookieepedia when I began with SW:TOR because I was sincerely interested in the lore (I always had a soft spot for the original SW movies but I never was a die hard fan... until sw:tor).

 

A second link certainly is the feeling of being part of something glorious, something very new and shining - as for example sw:tors countless cut-scenes and dialogues that never fail to amaze me, right now I am deeply in love with the designs for the Grey Secant (Tron, anyone?) and this feeling has not faded ever since, I still consider sw:tor to be the top of the list when it comes to quest narration and I can understand why a MMO does not offer tons of different solutions to quests (it would be an insane workload) - rather than wasting my energy on lamenting about that, I do enjoy the hilarious one-liners for example my Bounty Hunter drops ("I maybe negotiated with his face a little."). That one even made it into Real-Life communication with friends and guildmates here.

 

Third comes the last link I have discovered that might have something to do with the affect - and that is the game's level of thought. To explain what I mean with this - I do mean the way things are designed and the reason behind that. See.. as I have been in many betas, many MMOs and such I did see tons of bad decisions. When I began SW:TOR I was repeatedly being heard saying things like "Wow, they thought about that? That's quite amazing" and "So.. they blocked this since it could lead to that exploit? Cool thing" - and that is just part of what I thought. Sure, there were and still are bugs in SW:TOR but I dont know any MMO without bugs, nor do I think I ever will. The reason why this amazes me and makes me happy and feel "magic" is because of the way the Devs approach the community - they do it on par but they also do NOT feed the trolls, they don't say "Oh sure we will quickly do as you asked us to do! Sorry, dear customer! Will be fixed right now!" but instead they evaluate community reports as much as their own data. Trust me, fellow readers, that is so incredibly rare and brave that it amazes me. It is the same reason why the Ultima Online community never had many problems with whinery and players "demanding" things in the long run - because they knew that was pointless. Solutions were found where they were needed and if someone was being ganked all day long and robbed clean of all items (that was possible in UO) ...then it was his bad personal luck and his fault for carrying around all the valueables he had. No use to complain. That is essentially how it is here and I really appreciate this. The absolutely worst community-to-staff communication I have ever ever ever witnessed was in "Champions Online" - the staff made hotfixes over hotfixes so much that the expression Flavor of the Month was reduced to Flavor of the Patch, as in classes being completely revamped every few weeks, their skills being changed drastically every few weeks and all of that just due to whining in forums.

 

All of this is parts of the reasons why SW:TOR still amazes me and keeps me hooked. Yes, the magic of the first half year has faded - but now I enjoy the harder content more and more and I take my time about it, as does my guild. We like things close-knit, familiar, on our own pace. That does keep the magic alive on quite some weekends and I dare say that this is also our own achievement and also our own burden. We try to make things special, try to really stand out together in the way we communicate with each other and try to achieve a shared-consciousness level tactical understanding of each another.

 

Sorry for the very long post but it really was needed to vent this here along with my thoughts on the various reasons for what might lack - and that is "Not much" since the main thing that lacks imho is for people to get together and do outstanding stuff together. Just wait until the first musicians among us create sw:tor songs (Midas, I miss you) ;)

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I do remember the WOW factor with Ever Quest I remember making my first character a Troll. I remember walking round the (what would now be called crappy) starting village and the first couple of quests before being sent out to explore alone. I remember meeting other trolls and going off to camp bandits. All great I remember finally getting enough XP to go farther out. However in todays market that would be laughed at people would quit because it took too long to level, there was too little to do and it forced grouping.

 

I seem to think I did get the feeling for TOR when I first played open beta but like all things once you have played for a few weeks the WOW factor dies down and the bugs start to be noticed

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Mine's Final Fantasy XI which has some similarities to EQ. It was part of that generation of mmos. Definitely a steep learning curve for someone like me who was brand new to mmos. I thought "Online Final Fantasy?! I must try this!" Having no clue what I was getting myself into.

 

The "wow" factor you guys are mentioning was notched up a few levels for me with that game. Not only getting my 1st taste of an mmo, but an mmo based on one of my favorite game series ever. That adds to the sentiment that no modern mmo could ever compare.

 

Though some of what made it amazing includes hardcore elements I'd probably not want to revisit nowadays. I actually don't mind the laid back, casual mmos now. However, I'll never take them as seriously because of it. The sense of accomplishment isn't there. They're not serious business to me.

 

What modern games could try to match is the vast, beautiful game world I can get lost in. Full of amazing sights, sounds & activities to pass the time. A place I love logging into even when I don't have a quest objective to take care of. I just want to be in that world doing something. That's often cited as a major complaint here with SWTOR. To me it leaves a lot to be desired in that department.

Edited by DarthLeeloo
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i still enjoy the mmo "rotation" i seem to have set myself into (play wow for a while, go to rift, then go to gw 2, then switch to TOR, repeat) and the only thing that seems to be lacking is the world size

 

TL;DR at the bottom (i ramble)

 

i'll compare to wow

 

in rift, its start in this area (only ONE starting zone per FACTION) then go here, then go here, then go here, then go here, then here, max level do dungeons

 

its pretty much the same in tor, with two starting zones (planets) for each faction, but after that its dromund kaas, balmorra, nar shadda, tatooine, etc

 

in wow, its a starting zone for each race (13 races/starting zone now, 8 races at launch, 6 starting zones at launch [only two more than tor]) but then there is a much less linear progression after that. ex. you start in deathknell as undead, then you're lead to tirisfall glades, but you can jump over to kalimdor (another continent) and jump into durotar or mulgore (both eventually lead to the same area though). it starts with quite a few options, and around level 20-25 you start to get onto the more linear path for whichever continent you are on, however there is almost always two optional progression paths (interchangeable) on each continent, for an approximate total of 4 linear ways to level 1-60. And thats just questing (many more dungeons to progress through to try to keep it from getting too stale [it still does though]).

 

so when you compare the world size of TOR to WoW, WoW has a much larger and expanded world to go through how you see fit, whereas TOR you get your shared class planet (warrior + inquisitor, BH + Agent) and then its the same planet after the next, with no alternate routs to experience more areas of the game.

 

they could even advance the story based on where you went, ex. at 18 when you finish dromund kaas as an inq you could have two planets (lets use balmorra and nar shadda, the already existing options) suggested to you, and when you arrive on either one (lets say they're both meant to be lvl 18-22 progression) zash comes up on your holo and says that she located one of the holocrons on whichever planet you're on. finish your class quests then off to the other two options for planets and repeat.

 

this isn't much of a solution, but it would at least one other leveling path to take.

 

TL;DR (because i ramble about nothing forever) WoW has a much larger and expanded world with multiple quest progression options, whereas TOR has one linear path (sandbox vs rollercoaster)

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Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

 

This is the game you want :) if you like RVR that is

http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

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I agree there was definitely something special there when I first started, that has now faded.

 

Grew up as a kid who loved to imagine living in other worlds, loved everything fantasy or sci-fi. And then one day, I get to jump into a persistant unexplored fantasy world and make my own character? It was a phenomenon. And at the beginning I started playing without my friends, which I think added to the mystery and wonder, it was like this secret world that I could loose myself in and explore.

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It's older gamers at the time didn't mind the grind and accepted it as fun

 

Over time each expansion in Everquest took away grind once Luclin came out and u could go anywhere in EQ so fast the world got incredibly small

 

New gamers for most part come rom a have to have now cannot wait instant gratification generation and simply wouldn't like it very much sadly

 

But the reason the game world seemed so large were travel times were absolute huge and vast which gives a sense of wow this is an entire world ... Which is good sometimes

 

Sadly I do not think there are fine wine drinkers that want to savor each sip left in gaming for most part gamers of today would rather shotgun the beer and be done with it

 

 

With all that said ... Even though huge travel times through many zones may seem like an ordeal it presents adventure on the way ... And even though most think they do not like it I think deep down they do and do not realize its what's makes a digitized world seem to come alive... But no developers have the wherewithal to sustain the barrage of whiners if they did ...

 

Just my two cents

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There needs to be a new approach to open world and crafting. Also new mini games which are pvp, and more pvp elements in general.

 

-Open world needs to feel more impactful, but this is the problem with large businesses and going with the status quo. The status quo apparently is wrong, and that is the main problem.

 

I could suggest many ideas on how to make open world better, but the general idea is to make more impactful, encourage exploration more, and even have group content and dynamic events.

 

Overall adding immersion to a simulated reality which could also benefit from day/night cycles.

 

-Crafting. This is done well in swtor, but its based on the status quo. Not on open world fun, and depth. Its made simple, and simple gets boring especially when it has little purpose in a safe themepark MMO. Why do I need credits? To pay repair bills, or pay for vanity items... the rest is a grind. However, I dont want to be cynical but point out, any system of lvling is a grind, but when its based on something that feels real and in depth, that it does not feel like a grind. Doing FPs, story, and Ops as new content is wonderful, but on the rinse and repeat its no different than any other cookie cutter MMO, and that is why tying it in with the open world, crafting, team work to get resources and making crafting a real alternative to raiding as well adds a lot to the game.

 

-Mini games would be huge as well. Pazaak, swoop racing among other options wouild add a real life presence in swtor, creating a culture in the game, that does not feel limited to the fleet and raiding or popping a WZ que.

 

-Bounty hunting can also add to the game.

 

-Player housing and decoration. This could be instanced. However, they can add it with such depth and reward that it is something great to have and is money better spent than on money sinks of repair bills which is only a reminder of other peoples failures most of the time rather than something that helps with inflation. If they want to deal with inflation put fun money sinks into the game.

 

Guild mechanics

 

3d space combat - sand box style but balanced for a themepark MMo.

 

Allow for player made content - we can write books and put them in the library in swtor, or make things like desinging swoop race tracks possible.

 

-Tournaments. For themeparks, I think this is a must to make the challenge more engaging. Anything that can be turned into a tournament. PVP, even OPs with timers, pazaak tournaments, duel arenas tournaments, swoop racing tournaments, etc. Maybe even allow for players to customize their own events and tournaments with their own prizes and possible special requirements (going back to the player made content idea).

 

NPC alignment - This goes back to the open world idea, but its a specific idea that takes the idea of alignment with NPCs helping the player or the opposite, and players trying to navigate the world when collecting certain resources and consider the NPCs territory. Also maybe make guilds affect the location of NPCs by forts that they capture in the open world. These are examples of having an impact on the environment.

Edited by VegaPhone
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Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

 

The same could be said about all game types.

I remember playing Doom (yes, im that old) back in the day of 2d graphics and thinking "wow, this game is huuuuuuuuuuuge!"

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EQ was my first MMO. What made it 'wondrous' was the fact that I didn't have a fecking clue what I was doing. I didn't know anything about how the game worked, so I easily became completely enthralled by the whole experience.

Inevitably, as I played more MMOs I began to compare them and started to find each lacking in one way or another. Worse, I became too familiar with the skinner box mechanics to ever be able to find the 'magic' again.

 

I've played countless MMOs since EQ and they've all been fun, but you can never recapture the excitement of your first MMO. A game would need to completely rewrite the rule book and throw away every tired convention of the genre to make MMOs new and exciting again.

Edited by craic_fox
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MMOs these days are basically solo games with grouping tagged on, an afterthought if you will. Until the game designers overcome this hurdle we will not see another Everquest or the like.

 

I concur.

 

Almost every MMO released since EQ hit it big has been a virtual clone of EQ gameplay that gets watered down and over simplified with each new clone. Essentially what they are doing is giving us lesser versions of the same old game for the same money. Now with the microtransaction fad, they are actually beginning to allow us to pay real cash to avoid playing the game. They are innovating the genre out of existence.

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The same could be said about all game types.

I remember playing Doom (yes, im that old) back in the day of 2d graphics and thinking "wow, this game is huuuuuuuuuuuge!"

 

That is the problem with the MMO genre compared to other PC game genres. Every other game type gets bigger, harder, and more complex as it evolves, MMO's do the opposite. They get smaller, easier, and less complicated.

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Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing.

 

Everquest actually sucked as far as "wondrous"' goes. The reason is so impressed you was through your own discovery. Brand new genre, no initial information, no maps, no idea of what the game was to be. No idea of what existed beyond your starting zone.....like a child taking his first steps into the back yard.

 

You are now a veteran player, the mystery is gone, it will never come back. That is the case with everything from education, to employment, to growing up.....is why older people chuckle at the ramblings of the young.....and why we wax romantically about the past. Game is just the vehicle in this particular case.

Edited by Blackardin
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People grew up and got jobs.

 

MMO genre lacks content for grown up adults. And I don't mean by that violence and sex.

 

For me growing up means that when I log in I want to go PvP and have rewards for it without grindy leveling for month or two or need for logging in each day just to be successful. PvP would also need to be at least mediocrely competitive in a sense that losing or winning would make you feel something. Like for example football game. Most mmo's only have non-competitive PvP so you don't accidentally hurt someone's feelings or PvP has no real competition at all when it's all about gear or levels etc.

 

PvE would also need to be interesting and there should be less leveling and end game should have a lot of options to complete goals by easily teaming up with other people, without forcing it too much.

 

Most games separate pvp and pve which is also boring since it makes game so predictable. :/

 

Also I miss nwn with actual roleplaying servers. Even though it wasn't real mmo.

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Well, SWG felt huge. Truly huge. Wast areas that one could travel through for quite a long time. I'm really not sure exactly how long it took to get from one end of the map to the other but I'm quite sure it was on the order of 10s of minutes. For me, that was the most important factor. There was a "dangerous distant unknown" feel to certain areas.

 

Also, since SWG had player housing and true "galactic centers" crowded with real people SWG felt more alive than SWTOR. It also had real crafting.

 

SWTOR feels extremely artificial. Well, Tatooine is relatively cool but look at Corellia. Feels like a dead and abandoned place.

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Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

 

I know what you talking about BBP

 

Im on my last legs here to be honest

 

Seems things went downhill after DAoC released.

DAoC was the FINAL game of the old era where logging in was fun and exciting.

 

I was reading up on the new Mark Jacobs game (wont play it as its RVR Focused so hes making mistake of forcing PVP on everyone all the time, and that never works out well in long run) and allot of what he says in his "principles" are bang on the money about the genre and how its less then what it was.

 

http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

 

I know in DAoC we would log in and have our individual goals and desires but then we also had our guild agenda (could earn guild points to help defend our frontier), and after that we had our Realm Agenda and it made for a awsome community of players. It wasnt just mindless warzones and OPS, rinse and repeat.

 

In EQ you formed connections with those PUGs you joined between fights.

You made real friends based on personalities rather then so called game skill

In SWG and UO and EQ2 (and even DAoC) you had the house decorating appeal where you would spend hours and hours and hours designing your home just the way you want so you could show it off to others

 

In fact, when I look back at all the MMORPGs that came before WOW, they all have one thing in common.

The games (directly or indirectly) focused on community aspects and interaction fo personalities.

4 people in a group, banging buttons, not speaking was NOT interaction

Interaction was actually conversing and interacting with each other.

 

Ive long asked for Pazaak and Swoop racing as thats just a no brainer activity to add that acheives the social aspect missing from TOR and other race to finish MMORPGs that came out since WOW and after.

But even though there is a huge demand for the content

There doesnt seem to be a desire developer wise to add it

 

But yeah, for me the wonderous of the older MMORPGs was the social aspects of the games.

 

Today games are just cut and paste shells with really no heart or soul to them.

 

Go in, run dailies (PVE, OPS, PVP), and log having spoken to maybe 5 people your entire time in game.

Unless of course your on guild voice chat but then your still not really interacting with game community, just a very very very small sliver of it.

 

Modern games just lack social aspect that was present in all the older MMORPGs.

 

Im really holding out hope ESO will deliver the older experience.

Sounds like they will but we wont know for sure till we actually try game

But on paper it seems "they get it"

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