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Giving back range to VG


Spoloma's Avatar


Spoloma
03.30.2019 , 10:33 AM | #1
Hey everyone, recently bioware devs on pvp podcast acknowledged many areas that needs improvement, including class balance, which needs some serious work. Now, ever since 4.0 vg/pt suffered a huge blow, where they reduced range to 10m on most of abilities and nerfed already lackluster dcd's, while giving slight bump in damage.
Now,i wanna focus primarily on pvp, since reduced range and dcd's didnt quite hurt class viability in pve.
Over the years, lots of changes were proposed, but almost non of them mention giving back 15-20m range. At this point, opinions of "vg/pt community" divide. Most of players just think giving reflect/mitigation abilities would change something. While, with enough of dcd's, that may very well be the case, but that change would effectively ruin the core feature of the class, which, at least used to be, mid-range kiting, not melee all the time. Class itself, since original launch, was designed to be mid-range. I realize that, prior to 4.0 tanks/skanks were a problem but instead of fixing that, all specs were reduced to melee, without any concern of survivability.
So, if you agree with my opinion, i think its high time to start buzzing around to give us back range back and, obviously, improvement of dcd's/rework of utilities.

Menaur's Avatar


Menaur
03.30.2019 , 10:38 AM | #2
/signed - its so much needed

GhOsTPrOz's Avatar


GhOsTPrOz
03.30.2019 , 10:51 AM | #3
Vanguard Tank main here. I miss 30m high impact bolt, sticky grenade and full auto, especially full auto XD. However I understand the reasoning for taking them away. Basically Vanguard was designed as a "ranged tank" at first however they quickly realized well....anything they have aggro on goes to 4m anyway right? Unless it's stationary like a turret. So the range was a bit redundant for tanks. As for DPS they were the only "mid range" DPS so they were a very special niche but that means they played differently then both ranged and melee and really didn't make much sense because all the fights are balanced around having melee or range, there's really no mid range DPS mechanics so all VG DPS was really was a Melee DPS with really good kiting ability. So they made them more into a melee however with proper utilities some stuff can be used from 12m and you can turn yourself into a ranged for 20 seconds with another, So I think that's a good compromise. They also have an 30m Aoe taunt/aggro drop, something unique to them, as well as a few other abilities depending on spec/utility (Hammershot, harpoon, assault plastique, incindiary grenade) So honestly I think they are fine in that regard.

As for their current situation in PVP, mostly ranked, honestly the loss of range is a small factor but I think the bigger factor here is everyone else got more DCDs and Vanguards didn't. Take the ranged classes for example. Back when sage only had bubble all you had to do was focus it till bubble, wait, then kill, they couldn't do **** but kite you and try to heal. Now they have phase walk which they can use to escape and heal up, they have 2 DR cool downs and better kiting options (root on kb) so it's not as simple as it was before and sage has become more survivable. Same deal with gunslingers. Commandos used to be the easiest to kill because they were basically a less mobile vanguard, but then commando got Reflect, and the Truama regulators utility. Now a good Merc DPS literally can't be globaled. If your stunned you can reflect, you will get a 70k or so heal when your Sheild wears off if people tunnel through it and adrenaline rush heals you up to 60.

I honestly think the solution for Vanguard DPS is to make Truama Regulators built into both DPS specs and give all 3 VG specs Adrenaline rush heals up to 60 then they would be more survivable.
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Spoloma's Avatar


Spoloma
03.30.2019 , 11:48 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by GhOsTPrOz View Post
Vanguard Tank main here. I miss 30m high impact bolt, sticky grenade and full auto, especially full auto XD. However I understand the reasoning for taking them away. Basically Vanguard was designed as a "ranged tank" at first however they quickly realized well....anything they have aggro on goes to 4m anyway right? Unless it's stationary like a turret. So the range was a bit redundant for tanks. As for DPS they were the only "mid range" DPS so they were a very special niche but that means they played differently then both ranged and melee and really didn't make much sense because all the fights are balanced around having melee or range, there's really no mid range DPS mechanics so all VG DPS was really was a Melee DPS with really good kiting ability. So they made them more into a melee however with proper utilities some stuff can be used from 12m and you can turn yourself into a ranged for 20 seconds with another, So I think that's a good compromise. They also have an 30m Aoe taunt/aggro drop, something unique to them, as well as a few other abilities depending on spec/utility (Hammershot, harpoon, assault plastique, incindiary grenade) So honestly I think they are fine in that regard.

As for their current situation in PVP, mostly ranked, honestly the loss of range is a small factor but I think the bigger factor here is everyone else got more DCDs and Vanguards didn't. Take the ranged classes for example. Back when sage only had bubble all you had to do was focus it till bubble, wait, then kill, they couldn't do **** but kite you and try to heal. Now they have phase walk which they can use to escape and heal up, they have 2 DR cool downs and better kiting options (root on kb) so it's not as simple as it was before and sage has become more survivable. Same deal with gunslingers. Commandos used to be the easiest to kill because they were basically a less mobile vanguard, but then commando got Reflect, and the Truama regulators utility. Now a good Merc DPS literally can't be globaled. If your stunned you can reflect, you will get a 70k or so heal when your Sheild wears off if people tunnel through it and adrenaline rush heals you up to 60.

I honestly think the solution for Vanguard DPS is to make Truama Regulators built into both DPS specs and give all 3 VG specs Adrenaline rush heals up to 60 then they would be more survivable.

I get you bro, i really miss 30m hib and full auto(still dont get why they removed full auto of all things?!). But, on mid-range DPS don't agree. Class was unique in a way, that you were forced to engage both mid-range and melee range, in order to maintain dot and keep optimal dps. Which made us good counters to melee classes. Yes, lots of people were disregarding the range and going head on fighting and dying withing moments after that. In 4-4 and, especially, 8-8 that range may not matter that much, but 1-1, 2-2 it makes all the difference in the world. I do agree, that against long-range classes kiting is pointless, as its supposed to be, but against melee its very needed. Maras/jugs have good reflect/mitigation dcd's, as well as high dps ratings. Kiting them in the past and pretty much now, under htl and 15% movement boost was and still is a must to survive. Operatives, while having lower dps, have lots of movement imparing abilities, and 2 stuns, which is hard to survive already, unless, of course, you get a good jump on them. Against sins, however, its pointless, because of 4 bloody stuns and Force speed every 15 sec.
All in all, having 15-20m range, along with 15% movement boost, and Entangling Tools utility, would give us a much better chance to defeat any melee class.
On Truama Regulators and Adrenaline rush, 100% agree. And, they definately should reduce back reload time of shoulder cannon, as well as, make it to 5% heal, not 3.

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
04.01.2019 , 01:01 PM | #5
/signed

As a VG main since release, I gotta admit, everytime vg/pt got nerfed, i've just been left speechless, unable to fathom what anybody is thinking. While other classes with stronger utilities & dcd's get theirs buffed, when before buffs/nerfs, other classes had better options anyway

VG's long-range has never been game breaking, against other ranged classes we'd just get laughed at, and against melees, they had way more mobility and utilities than us to close the gap, long range was a good way of forcing their utilities in bad positions to take away it's value, but we lost that, and essentially became an Operative cos-playing as a Juggernaut

It's kind of draining on the soul.

Darth_Exar's Avatar


Darth_Exar
04.06.2019 , 10:55 AM | #6
I wholeheartedly agree /signed.
Quote: Originally Posted by athenaprime View Post
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lord-angelus's Avatar


lord-angelus
04.06.2019 , 02:27 PM | #7
So much this

steveerkcanjerk's Avatar


steveerkcanjerk
04.19.2019 , 11:56 PM | #8
Look I don't mean to burst any of yalls bubble here and please here me out. I have been maining a pt tank in nim raids and ranked pvp. And in terms of pvp this will not fix a single thing for our tank. Being able to shoot your railshot from 30m is not a useful thing to have. Here is couple of reasons.

1. You are not even in guard range if you are doing that.

2. You can't set up cleaves this way.

3. Classes have gap closers aplenty. Mad dash leaps, rocket out, sniper rolls, operative rolls (who are we kidding with this 30m range).

Out biggest issue right now is dcds compared to other tanks and utility. And by utility i dont mean 30m range. That adds nothing of value to the PT/VG tank. Is it fun pretending to be a range tank sure but its not what will make this class a better pick in pvp or pve. What we are actually lacking

1. dcds to go toe to toe with a juggernaut. In most ranked matches a jugg wins in milage because their cooldowns are more effective and come back much much faster, relieving pressure off your healer.

2. Utility things like intercede (harpoon a teammate)? Along those lines. The most utility we give a team is a transpose that is to slow, and sonic rebounder (great for raids not so much in ranked pvp).

Fixing those will actually put us in a better spot. And for those talking about dps here is a couple of things it won't fix.

1. Mercs and sniper don't care if you run.

2. Juggs leap/mad dash and a plethera of slows.

3. Mara has all what the juggs do plus predation which gives it to everyone.

4. Operative.....you will not out range or run this.

6. Assassin phantom stride/pull (if tank), low slash stun, stealth outs etc.

So where is the range gonna help, because it is such a gimicky thing to waste an update on and treat it as a nerf.
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Valorn's Avatar


Valorn
04.20.2019 , 12:54 PM | #9
Balancing is not a zero-sum game. Adding consistency to VG dps and control is orthogonal to survivability. They can address both. We shouldn’t be accepting of changes that only address the most pressing issue with the class.

While true, DCDs are the more important thing, but longer range abilities means more consistent damage for the dps disciplines, which makes coordination easier. However, I think this is addressed mostly by making the utility that extends ranges when explosive fuel is used to include rail shot. Seems like an oversight that it wasn’t included and its lack makes the utility mostly useless. I would prefer, however, rail shot and shatter slug to be 30m, and to increase the range of the mortar strike. Also the utility that extends ranges should be extending by +5m, not +2m. Give some real options there.

For folks who have played VG/PT a long time (since release for me), one of the things thst felt unique and very fun about the class was its ranges abilities. When I came back to the game and saw them gone I was very disaplointed. It was one of the aspects of this game that I really enjoyed thst I couldn’t get in any other game. The fun factor was diminished. From a practical standpoint, the range allows two things

1) for you to better coordinate damage against priority targets, almost as good as a ranged dps, and getting out of melee for short periods of time was not nearly as impactful to a VG/PT as it was a Jugg or assassin.

2) it allowed you to stay in guard range and still do respectable damage/control. As a ranged tank you dont need to choose between engaging a target and protecting a friendly. You can, while retaining respectable efficacy, do both. That is a differentiator.

These were why I really liked the range on thr class, and why I miss it.

Valorn's Avatar


Valorn
04.20.2019 , 01:45 PM | #10
Balancing is not a zero-sum game. Adding consistency to VG dps and control is orthogonal to survivability. They can address both. We shouldn’t be accepting of changes that only address the most pressing issue with the class.

While true, DCDs are the more important thing, but longer range abilities means more consistent damage for the dps disciplines, which makes coordination easier. However, I think this is addressed mostly by making the utility that extends ranges when explosive fuel is used to include rail shot. Seems like an oversight that it wasn’t included and its lack makes the utility mostly useless. I would prefer, however, rail shot and shatter slug to be 30m, and to increase the range of the mortar strike. Also the utility that extends ranges should be extending by +5m, not +2m. Give some real options there.

For folks who have played VG/PT a long time (since release for me), one of the things thst felt unique and very fun about the class was its ranges abilities. When I came back to the game and saw them gone I was very disaplointed. It was one of the aspects of this game that I really enjoyed thst I couldn’t get in any other game. The fun factor was diminished. From a practical standpoint, the range allows two things

1) for you to better coordinate damage against priority targets, almost as good as a ranged dps, and getting out of melee for short periods of time was not nearly as impactful to a VG/PT as it was a Jugg or assassin.

2) it allowed you to stay in guard range and still do respectable damage/control. As a ranged tank you dont need to choose between engaging a target and protecting a friendly. You can, while retaining respectable efficacy, do both. That is a differentiator.

These were why I really liked the range on thr class, and why I miss it.