so these new Raiding operations have been out awhile and I've yet to see any developer comment on what exactly happened.

 

I refuse to believe that melee vs ranged was tested.

 

Further if it was tested - what was the outcome? How can you justify the level of difficulty required for melee toons to succeed, scratch that; live through a bossfight.

 

Ranged specs can stand, turret, ignore 90% of mechanics while maintaining 99% uptime.

 

Melee must:

1- chase adds on sparky- leap, sprint, back to boss on sparky

2- Bulo- lol one volley dropped on boss- melee cannot hit boss for 45 seconds. Meanwhile fire barrels tossed at tanks hits melee on boss- load lifters - excavation carts.... Melee has to stop dos run away from boss. All things considered 50% uptime on Bulo is good.

3- torque fire- ya right - ranged sit back 20m away from any fire or dangerous fire devices- now the fire changed - and its invisible for 3 secs. Hahahaha

 

Do you see the pattern?

 

Just wish we could get an answer why it was decided melee shouldn't be viable for an entire round of content?

 

Sins in light armor are just pathetic anymore - and we were just nerfed bc of pvp?

Maras are starting to make a comeback at least.

1 if they have to chase adds on sparky your doing it wrong

 

2 for bulo 45 seconds is a gross exaggeration, and if you do it right you have 100% up time

 

3 okay maybe melee can't attack for 3 seconds every fire, but ranged have to activate the panel which is a 3 second channel

 

My guild did NIM Corrupter on tier with 4 melee, back when people on our server said it was impossible.

 

We have gotten 7/10 with 3 melee, yes I said it...we have killed torque with 3 melee tanks not included.

 

Almost always my melee dps do more then my ranged for my team, and it has nothing to do with skills because some of them play both and do better as melee. I am tired of the Melee suck QQ I heal tank and dps my DPS toons are a sage, vanguard and sentinel...all in about the same gear but if given a choice I would take my melee any day

 

Melee are viable, stop complaining

This above me. Needed to be said. +100 our 2 melee out dps our 2 ranged most of the fights in HM. Mara and pt is a sick melee combo. Now the only thing is the development team need to not implement the mara changes on the pts and all will remain fine. Edited May 1, 2015 by Walpurulis

The fact that some melee can manage doesn't make the current ops fair on melee compared to range. The skill level require for melee to succeed is much higher then for rdps.

 

There needs to be a range tax to bring things back into balance.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying its unbalanced. Bulo if a ranged drops a volley on boss as he moved - it is 45 seconds until the volley stops. Time it. Volley lasts 45 secs. Bulo jumps every minute.

 

Just seems like a gross oversight to release these ops as they stand.

 

And who brought up NIM corrupter? The argument I was making was the new operations are grossly imbalanced-

 

Df and dp are fine - I guess they fired the melee team this time around.

for the record, why should even a range dps put a " volley " on the boss ? when range are always on at least 25m away from the boss. i had no problems with those new ops as melee .. only on Revan.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying its unbalanced. Bulo if a ranged drops a volley on boss as he moved - it is 45 seconds until the volley stops. Time it. Volley lasts 45 secs. Bulo jumps every minute.

 

Just seems like a gross oversight to release these ops as they stand.

 

And who brought up NIM corrupter? The argument I was making was the new operations are grossly imbalanced-

 

Df and dp are fine - I guess they fired the melee team this time around.

 

melee is fine, if a ranged drops a volley on the boss that's a **** up...regardless melee is perfectly viable and balanced if you don't like it role a commando

Ranged specs can stand, turret, ignore 90% of mechanics while maintaining 99% uptime.

 

Melee must:

1- chase adds on sparky- leap, sprint, back to boss on sparky

2- Bulo- lol one volley dropped on boss- melee cannot hit boss for 45 seconds. Meanwhile fire barrels tossed at tanks hits melee on boss- load lifters - excavation carts.... Melee has to stop dos run away from boss. All things considered 50% uptime on Bulo is good.

3- torque fire- ya right - ranged sit back 20m away from any fire or dangerous fire devices- now the fire changed - and its invisible for 3 secs. Hahahaha

 

Show me those 90% of the mechanics that can be avoided.

Show me one, only one DPS that can maintain 99% uptime on sword squadron HM or underlurker.

 

1. Stay on the boss and let the rDPS do the adds. If you have 2 or more rDPS and they can't manage the adds you should get proper DPS.

2. Everyone stay at 3-4m from the boss and you won't be hit. It's the tanks job to make sure you don't get hit by the exonium carts. If someone puts a volley right under the boss, kick him.

3. Just don't stand in the fire? The fire devices won't spawn under the boss so you are safe there. The floor vents are a threat for tanks, mDPS, rDPS and healers alike.

for the record, why should even a range dps put a " volley " on the boss ?

 

I'm not sure why a "ranged" would do it, but a tank ? It's happened to me a few times :

 

Boss jumps, I (tank) must follow quickly to avoid mass-cleave, get volley on me juuust before leaping, and voila, volley on boss.

Show me those 90% of the mechanics that can be avoided.

Show me one, only one DPS that can maintain 99% uptime on sword squadron HM or underlurker.

 

I'm not sure what u mean by that but a mdps that doesnt carry the bomb on sword squadron can have 99% uptime (only the pulls stop your rotation for a second, or if u get teh big bomb)

On underlurker most classes can have near perfect uptime with a well timed rotation, if I get good rocks on my vanguard i can easily do 100% uptime.

 

Btw the answer to the OP is simple, the devs don't raid.

Edited May 2, 2015 by invertioN

Melee are fine for at least 9/10. For the most part the amount of L2P required for the new content is more than what your average mara/sent is capable of.

We had this thread already http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=788652

 

 

And I don't understand how people can make poor excuses for the balance. Of course you can clear bosses with all melee, of course there are workarounds. Doesn't mean it's not much harder.

I'm 7/10 as a mDPS. The only fight that felt bad for me as melee was Torque, but most of it was the terrible visibility which may be fixed in the future. I don't understand dying to the floor vents, though: they are on a timer. If you're having issues reacting to them, you can just start moving 2 seconds before he summons them. The Deterrent devices were definitely frustrating, because that was the sole reason I was taking a lot more damage per second than my ranged counterparts. However, I believe that most of that is my fault + the tanks' fault for bad positioning at times on both ends.

 

As a melee with no charge abilities, I find it very simple to maintain near 100% uptime on Bulo, Walkers, Sparky, Malaphar, and Underlurker. Master/Blaster definitely isn't hard to maintain high uptime on the boss, even if that fight isn't a DPS check. The one difficult thing about Revanite Commanders is DPSing Derron, but otherwise that fight is fine as well. I cannot comment on Coratanni and Revan. If you were to post a video of your pulls, perhaps we could point out areas where either you or your raid could improve.

Melee are fine for at least 9/10. For the most part the amount of L2P required for the new content is more than what your average mara/sent is capable of.

 

Why should the mara/sent l2p more then his rdps counter part....

I don't recall saying they did.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying its unbalanced. Bulo if a ranged drops a volley on boss as he moved - it is 45 seconds until the volley stops. Time it. Volley lasts 45 secs. Bulo jumps every minute.

 

Just seems like a gross oversight to release these ops as they stand.

 

And who brought up NIM corrupter? The argument I was making was the new operations are grossly imbalanced-

 

Df and dp are fine - I guess they fired the melee team this time around.

 

if a range drops a volley in the boss position then that is a problem with your range and should be fixed (there are only 5 possible positions for bulo so there is no excuse to drop a volley in any of these)

for the record, why should even a range dps put a " volley " on the boss ? when range are always on at least 25m away from the boss. i had no problems with those new ops as melee .. only on Revan.

 

Either people aren't reading or in the unluckiest player in the galaxy. Yes ranged are 30m away they get a volley drop it middle of map- (I can't control where someone else drops anything) 1. Boss jumps other side map - where that volley we just dropped.

 

Melee cannot go on tanks side of boss - they are literally locked out of fight for 30 secs. It's a piss poor game design - that was my intent of the post I wanted a clarification how "balanced" this is between melee and ranged-

 

I am a melee dps- I am viable - I can beat most ranged dps most fights- that is not what I'm looking for here. I think people just post random replies without even thinking whether it's relevant or not.

 

If you honestly call ravagers and Tos balanced between ranged and melee - well there is no helping you.

 

Sad thing is - there is nothing that can be done to change bossfight mechanics.

 

If just really really like an explanation from the devs why they either didn't bother balancing melee vs ranged -- or what their logic was in ignoring said balancing.

 

I am not going to roll a ranged toon. I am the one and only melee toon in our prog team. Which is necessary for a balanced group dynamic pushing content.

 

Never seen any operation in Swtor history with such a major imbalance

Either people aren't reading or in the unluckiest player in the galaxy. Yes ranged are 30m away they get a volley drop it middle of map- (I can't control where someone else drops anything) 1. Boss jumps other side map - where that volley we just dropped.

 

Melee cannot go on tanks side of boss - they are literally locked out of fight for 30 secs. It's a piss poor game design - that was my intent of the post I wanted a clarification how "balanced" this is between melee and ranged-

 

There are 5 positions on the whole map where the boss can jump. How hard can it be?

1 melee, 3 or 4 doesn't matter. Your a sentinel right? If your ranged **** up a volley ...which should not be happening then pop GBTF and carry on, then when it wears off Pop saber ward and rebuke if you have it, should take zero damage and any damage you do take will be manageable . If this happens twice in one fight,,.your ranged need to learn to play. all the people saying melee is balanced are people who play melee....deal with it.

1 melee, 3 or 4 doesn't matter. Your a sentinel right? If your ranged **** up a volley ...which should not be happening then pop GBTF and carry on, then when it wears off Pop saber ward and rebuke if you have it, should take zero damage and any damage you do take will be manageable . If this happens twice in one fight,,.your ranged need to learn to play. all the people saying melee is balanced are people who play melee....deal with it.

 

If all are melee the circle has a higher chance to drop on one of them - it happens. And the firebarrel will hit at least 2 of them, more likely 3-4 players. Load lifters and dpsing during Mass Barrage are also a far bigger problem and will cause downtime. Not to mention the additional danger from carts and the volley.

 

Ranged have to deal with none of that.

 

pop GBTF and carry on, then when it wears off Pop saber ward

That would only work on storymode and would require your healers to focus a large portion of their attention on you. A ridiculous thing to do in a fight where you don't need to deal much damage but simply survive.

Alright you all convinced me, I rescind my comment. The ops are balanced just fine bioware. Good job.

Alright you all convinced me, I rescind my comment. The ops are balanced just fine bioware. Good job.

 

Stop being a child about it and try to learn something.

 

Regarding Bulo Volleys. As people said, he will only jump to 5 set locations. I understand that ranged will get circles and have to drop them. But the point being made is that "Progression-level" DPS should know where they can stand to prevent that from happening.

 

If the DPS start in positions that are nowhere close to spots Bulo will jump to, when they get a circle they will again be nowhere near a bad spot to drop. Avoiding bad circle placement is something you do before you get the circle. Once you get it, if you're in a smart position, you step/run off in one direction that is "clear". There's no reason for DPS to run around like mad when they have a circle and wind up putting it somewhere dumb.

 

This Melee-Ranged discussion comes up all the time. Yes, currently there are more melee "unfriendly" fights. There isn't much of a "ranged tax". But so what. If you want to easy-mode your way through the current content, pick a ranged class. If you enjoy playing a melee, there are people saying that they are at least 9/10 viable. If they don't feel that way to you, it means you're not playing it as well as others do. Try and learn, or again, play a ranged.

 

Unless things are perfectly balanced (which is a fools' errand) between melee/ranged DPS, someone is always going to have it "easier", by definition. So what. Play what you're good at and what you like. If you don't think it works, get better. Stop blaming the mechanics. Some are melee unfriendly, but you've identified what those mechanics are, now identify how to deal with them.

Edited May 3, 2015 by JMagee

That would only work on storymode and would require your healers to focus a large portion of their attention on you. A ridiculous thing to do in a fight where you don't need to deal much damage but simply survive.

 

It doesn't cost health anymore

Ranged specs can stand, turret, ignore 90% of mechanics while maintaining 99% uptime.

Just ...... LOL ...... You think I:

- Can stand in bulo volleys (which are mainly targeted on ranged dps and healers)

- Don't need to move from healers who want to cuddle me at Bulo and potentially sharing damage which cant be AoE healed up (unlike melee who can healed up through the mains of an AoE attack

- Can stand in Massbarage (most melee I see are treating massbarage as a freaking marathon. Just stop it and use the delay between massbarages to dps the boss lol .....)

- Can just take Load lifters anywhere? Again if a melee shares the loadlifter damage its easy to heal them all up.

- Am NOT having floorvent flames on Torque as a ranged? I have quite often that I still get floorvents. I agree melee and tanks are more prone to vents but still a ranged dps or healer also gets them.

- Don't have to click repair droids as a ranged and interrupt my rotation on Torque / adds. Melee can just hack n slash away in that time

- Can just stand on other people with the master&blaster nade. As a ranged you have a much higher chance of someone running into you

- Can just stand where ever I like to stand at M&B? Masters knockback disagrees with you. For melee its much more obvious where the safe positions are.

- Can stand indefinitly in Malaphars savagery circle as ranged?

- Am not getting the red circle on Malaphar because I am a ranged dps?

- Am never getting a huge grenade at sword squadron (ohw a melee has it much easier since you can just stay on the boss continuing dealing damage if your group is smart enough. A ranged always has to interrupt rotation and seek out safe havens)

- Am never getting a groundburst circle and that I can stand in it? Also Ranged are standing all over the map making them very hard to heal up unless they stack up like ....... MELEE are doing

- Can just stand there and take gravity vortex where ever I like it? At least a melee can most of the time jump on a boss and continue wacking while I have to scramble and run for safety. Yes as a gunslinger I rarely get pulled in but we weren't talking specific classes here.

- Can just stay in the rage storm on lurker?

- Am not affected by the slow (or better said root)? At least as melee you can quite often leap to an add again.

- Can stand under collapsing ceiling?

- Don't need to worry about my positioning at revanite commanders as ranged? Most of the time I need to stack up with the melee and tank so the melee adds that are on me will be in range of the tank and other dps

 

Anyways. Havent got experience on Revan and Torque HM yet so can't say anything about that. I do know that ranged at Revan have certain specific tasks as breaking the cord between melee/ranged and themselves and knocking off the sabers (which both often might require you to break off combat).

 

Suffice to say that you are very very shortsighted when claiming ranged can ignore 90% of the mechanics. I agree life for melee isn't easy but this is taking it a few steps to far lol

 

Melee must:

1- chase adds on sparky- leap, sprint, back to boss on sparky

Nope they dont. Ranged will kill them for you. If they don't yell at them, not bioware lol ...

 

2- Bulo- lol one volley dropped on boss- melee cannot hit boss for 45 seconds.

1 - Who had the bright idea to stand in the spot where bulo could jump to? Most of the times when I see this happen its because some made a stupid mistake. Dont blame bioware for your group making a mistake. Ofc it can happen while leaping mid air but even than

2 - melee has a 4 meter range which means you can still reach the boss unless the circle is really casted in mid of the boss (in that case kudos for the sharp aim ) Also if really needed a melee can always use several 10 or 30m abilities. Cannot hit the boss is always wrong. Might be sucky damage in some cases but quite often it will be fine.

 

Meanwhile fire barrels tossed at tanks hits melee on boss-

Yes, barrels also hit the melee BUT ....... you can say him making an animation so you have about 1 second warning. Next to that ........ Healers can just heal the melee up with their AoE abilities while keeping focus on the tanks.

 

load lifters - excavation carts.... Melee has to stop dos run away from boss. All things considered 50% uptime on Bulo is good.

Just move out slighty to 10m range if you got a lifter as melee. Even 4m would work if your tanks and co melee dps are paying slight attention.

And exonium carts ......... They should never be an issue for a melee. Any decent tank will peel off from the boss to a safe distance. I always got to 10m range when tanking. I never splash my carts on other people just because they are melee. When it happens its because of other reasons (surprisingly mostly ranged / heal)

 

3- torque fire- ya right - ranged sit back 20m away from any fire or dangerous fire devices- now the fire changed - and its invisible for 3 secs. Hahahaha

Like I said. Ranged also gets vents at times.

Also ..... and let me use the example of getting a grade on a paper. For any paper you are writing you want to get an A+ / 10 out of 10 right? Thats your intention. To bad that for some reason you made some mistakes while writing your paper and ended up flunking it. Does this change your intention of getting a good grade? After some time you could redo the paper and luckely you got a good grade that time.

Now back to bioware. There intention is make the fire EASIER on the melee. And now you are mad that they are trying to make it easier for melee? Thats quite silly right? Ohw yes I agree they failed on achieving their goal. But than blame them for that. Don't go all sarcastic that bioware wants to remove melee from the game.

 

Sins in light armor are just pathetic anymore - and we were just nerfed bc of pvp?

And what exactly was the effective healing sins were doing before nerf? Even with me trying hard a lot of my selhealing as a sage is 0% effective because healers are on the ball. My point is that this isn't really an issue.

The FiB nerf however is quite annoying for shadows. This makes them however far from being not viable.