You doubled the price of summons from 10k to 20k but still haven't separated them from withdrawals. Guilds that allow their members to do summons tend to be careful with the amount we set to avoid giving free credits to guild bank thieves. A typical setup is like this:

 

Newcomer - 0 credits withdrawal

Member - 100k withdrawal

Higher up - 200k withdrawal

Even higher up - 300k withdrawal

etc.

 

If you don't set the Newcomer role to 0 credits then you invite those people who join with a few alts which they have parked next to the guild bank in their stronghold/fleet and then they withdraw the maximum amount you have set for their rank. Then they either gquit or stay in guild in case you haven't noticed their actions in the hope they can do it again the next week.

 

You still have to be careful with those you promote to higher ranks which means setting limits you are comfortable counting as a loss if someone should feel like taking the max credits for their rank with their 20+ alts.

 

When summons were introduced we were essentially forced to rewrite the withdrawal amounts since direct Withdrawals and Summons both come from the same pool. There is no way to say "All ranks except officer can withdraw zero but do 20 summons per week". This leads to issues were some people see they have a withdrawal amount for their rank and take the credits out directly, not using them for summons as intended. You can partially work around that with giving each person you promote a vocal/text reminder of what the credits are for but it sucks to keep sounding like a credit scrooge.

 

We had fairly safe limits set pre 6.0 which meant we only lost a few hundred thousand each month to people direct withdrawing. Now you have doubled the cost of summons which means we either double the amount people can withdraw which in turn doubles the amount we lose to people direct withdrawing or we simply leave the limits as they were and essentially halve the number of summons guild members can do.

 

What we need is a third tickbox on the guild bank's Manage tab:

 

Withdraw / Repair / Summon

 

There's plenty of room for it:

 

https://i.imgur.com/bX6ToYW.jpg

 

The better solution would be to allow us to set 3 different credit amounts but having another tickbox option seems the easier solution for now.

 

Please implement this ASAP or return the summons cost back to what it was. While you are at it, how about reducing the cooldown from 20m down to 5m

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: Tsillah replied with an even better suggestion:

I think the whole concept of having GS summons being paid from the Guild Bank a bad idea. I much prefer that being in a guild with a GS gives you the option of using it but that you pay the credits yourself.

 

The point about people robbing guild banks when they have the chance is not an unreasonable one. Repair costs makes sense mostly for progression groups that raid together but the summons should be paid for by the player I feel because it avoids various complications, including being restricted to say 100k and only being able to summon 5 times in a week then.

Edited November 11, 2019 by UlaVii

We have 8 vaults and 10 ranks, each with slightly higher credit credit withdrawals than the last:

 

Recruit = no guild bank access

Member = member vault only. no credit withdrawal, limited vault withdrawal

Member Crafter = Member Vault + 3 crafting vaults, limited credit withdrawal

Member Ops = Member Vault + Member ops vaults, limited credit withdrawal, higher credit withdrawal

Member Full = Member Vault + Crafting Vaults + Member Ops Vaults, higher credit withdrawal

Event Trustee = Member Full + more credits for group summons for ops + higher credit withdrawal

Officer = Event Trustee + higher credit withdrawal

Assistant GL = Officer + lots more

GL Alt = Lots and lots

GL = Unlimited

 

And enough officers responsive enough as to what's going on to keep tabs of who's doing what.

 

As far as the member vault is concerned, it's mostly filled with trash anyway, and with only 10 withdrawals per week set on it, they're not robbing us blind.

Edited October 28, 2019 by xordevoreaux

We had fairly safe limits set pre 6.0 which meant we only lost a few hundred thousand each month to people direct withdrawing.

I hate to sound like I'm blaming the victim, but it seems to me like you have a *strong* and *urgent* need to review your recruiting policies.

We have 8 vaults and 10 ranks, each with slightly higher credit credit withdrawals than the last.

 

The reason you have those credit withdrawal limits is because of the concern that somebody could directly withdraw more than you want them to. The "Withdraw" option is basically "Take credits directly from the guild bank into your inventory".

 

There is a tick box to allow the credits to be used for Repairs and you can turn off the direct Withdraw option which means the credit allowance you give to members can only be used for repairs.

 

I want a similar option for Summons. That way I can increase the summons allowance for each rank without worrying that somebody with 20 alts can pilfer several million credits.

 

I hate to sound like I'm blaming the victim, but it seems to me like you have a *strong* and *urgent* need to review your recruiting policies.

Yeah you are victim blaming. We don't spam recruitment as other guilds do. People see us doing fun things and they ask to join. If they are level 65+ and have not done anything to end up on our ban list then they get invited. If they join in with our events and we get to know them for a while then they get promoted to the first of the ranks that allow summons.

 

Some people are just proper ***** and they will fly under the radar long enough to get promoted and then they start stealing. The argument some of them use is "if you didn't want me to withdraw the credits then you should not of allowed the rank access to that". Customer services do nothing to help when you report these kind of bank thieves since they agree with them and say if you didn't want them to access the credits then you should not of enabled withdrawals for their rank. That is where the problem is. We have no way to enable summons without also giving people direct access to withdraw credits.

 

It was a minor problem with the old 10k summon cost but now it's been doubled it can and will cause problems.

While I do agree with having them separated - That would be a huge bonus.

 

It's not that hard to still keep them low enough that all ranks can summon & still won't rob you blind. If you're a large enough guild with enough members you should have a decent credit flow.

 

I am the GM of a very small guild but I allow all ranks to summon. I need to fix the ranks again with the new price change.

But I have it set so that even recruits, who can NOT remove from bank, can still summon. Albeit only 1-2 times a week till they get ranked up.

 

Summoning should honestly not even be a perk of a guild rank.

I can't stand that the large guilds on my server have summons locked to higher ranks & you can only do it IF you're lucky to rank up. Yet they're sitting on like billions on their banks. That's bull crap & just a power play.

Yeah you are victim blaming.

Well I did more or less acknowledge that, for sure. I should also have mentioned that I agree with the fundamental premise, that (regardless of the increase that happened with 6.0) permission to withdraw credits and permission to pay for summons should be separated into separate flags. Having them combined seems ... perverse.(1)

 

I apologise for not making that aspect clear.

 

(1) I'm well aware that "perverse" and "perverted" are different words, and have different meanings. I meant "perverse".

It's not that hard to still keep them low enough that all ranks can summon & still won't rob you blind. If you're a large enough guild with enough members you should have a decent credit flow.

Not sure why you assume having more members means you have more credits. People are more than happy to max out their withdrawal limit regardless of the guild size they are in. Just having more people does not mean they suddenly open their pockets and donate vast amounts, although that would be nice

 

I can't stand that the large guilds on my server have summons locked to higher ranks & you can only do it IF you're lucky to rank up. Yet they're sitting on like billions on their banks. That's bull crap & just a power play.

You only see the transitional value. You have no idea how much goes in and out of their banks on a regular basis. You call it bull crap but then admit you do a similar thing on a smaller scale to match your guild size:

 

But I have it set so that even recruits, who can NOT remove from bank, can still summon. Albeit only 1-2 times a week till they get ranked up.

You can't have summons enabled without letting them withdraw the credits directly. That's the whole point of what I'm asking for.

 

Item wise, that's just the risk of letting people withdraw items. Giving people access to withdraw items does not affect functionality which is what having summons bound to the withdraw option does.

This would be a very nice feature.

If you're a large enough guild with enough members you should have a decent credit flow.

It does not matter the size, guilds are usually mantained by a small proportion of its members. So while having more people donating, you have even more taking.

Seems the price increase was not a bug. Please split summons into it's own tickbox option on the guild bank manage panel so we can safely increase the allowance without benefiting guild bank thieves.

Seems the price increase was not a bug. Please split summons into it's own tickbox option on the guild bank manage panel so we can safely increase the allowance without benefiting guild bank thieves.

 

Remember when Eric Musco posted on these very forums that all undocumented changes were bugs and would be treated as such, that EA wasn't trying to sneak said undocumented changes by us, oh heavens no? Pepperidge Farm remembers! That keeps proving to be yet another lie from EA employees. There's been a number of undocumented cost increases in this expansion, from things like guild ship summons to the credits decoration vendor. Shame on you, EA.

Edited October 29, 2019 by AscendingSky

For this Thursday's patch could you please either reduce summons back to the 10k value they were before or split summons into it's own tickbox option on the guild bank manage panel so we can safely increase the allowance without benefiting guild bank thieves.

Having them seperate, and setting it so Preff/f2p could also use the summon ability would be helpful. I understand not letting them take money from guilds, because it essentially only benefits themselves, but the summons can benefit numerous people.

For this Thursday's patch could you please either reduce summons back to the 10k value they were before or split summons into it's own tickbox option on the guild bank manage panel so we can safely increase the allowance without benefiting guild bank thieves.

Suggesting the split *now* for release Thursday is more or less totally unrealistic(1), but reducing the cost of summons is absolutely feasible.

 

And yes, as suggested earlier, I absolutely back splitting the permissions even though the only reason my guild isn't dead is that I'm still playing, and I don't do stuff of the "requires guild-shiop invite" type.

 

(1) It would require new UI elements in three languages and a bucketload of in-house testing(2), so it's something that you should be suggesting for 6.0.1, 6.0.2, or even 6.1.(3)

 

(2) Making sure that it correctly defaults to some suitable value for every single rank (it should be a per-rank permission as well as - or even instead of - a per-bank permission --- discuss), making sure that the permissions are truly separate, etc. etc. etc. etc.

 

(3) No one piece of the puzzle is hard, but when you add them up, it starts to look a little hairy because of things like: "What happens if I have withdraw permission but not summon permission? Can I summon anyway?" The answer isn't hard to implement, but it's necessary to choose an answer.

 

Or maybe it's *one* three-way permission:

* Withdraw and summon

* Summon only

* Neither

 

And because it's not clear how it would work (as seen from the outside), it's not feasible for Thursday.

"What happens if I have withdraw permission but not summon permission? Can I summon anyway?" The answer isn't hard to implement, but it's necessary to choose an answer.

 

Or maybe it's *one* three-way permission:

* Withdraw and summon

* Summon only

* Neither

 

It would work like the Repair option already does:

 

• If you have Withdraw and Repair ticked then you can Withdraw and Repair
  
• If you only have Withdraw ticked then you can Withdraw but not use the Repair option
  
• If you only have Repair ticked then you can Repair but not directly Withdraw
  

Edited November 11, 2019 by UlaVii

Doubling the price of summons to me is a error on BW,s part. It not really encouraging group play. I am a solo player but sometimes like this week have helped in a WB or two. Such a cost long term will stop players offering summons and yet again remove a game activity long term. Short term maybe not as many guilds have lots of credits but over time with other added expense players won't donate in the quantity they once did.the extra cost on a personal level is not an issue well at least not to me. Punishing guilds however is not a smart move.

Not sure why you assume having more members means you have more credits. People are more than happy to max out their withdrawal limit regardless of the guild size they are in. Just having more people does not mean they suddenly open their pockets and donate vast amounts, although that would be nice

 

I never stated that but if you actually look at the large guilds (least the ones I've been in) they have massive amounts of credits. I'm talking in the billions.

So yes members do donate credits. In my small guild alone, I've had a few donate some decent sums but by far & large it is my credits going in.

 

You only see the transitional value. You have no idea how much goes in and out of their banks on a regular basis. You call it bull crap but then admit you do a similar thing on a smaller scale to match your guild size:

 

See post above, but I can reiterate. I do see, and it's quite easy for ANY member to see what goes in & out on a daily/weekly basis. Credit & item wise. Not sure your point or why you are even arguing this.

And not even sure how you get I do the same thing, when I state that I allow summons on ALL ranks. Get it ALL as in recruit gets like 2 summons a week. And progresses as you rank.

 

You can't have summons enabled without letting them withdraw the credits directly. That's the whole point of what I'm asking for.

 

I'm starting to think you just like arguing for the sake of arguing UlaVii. *sighs*

 

Item wise, that's just the risk of letting people withdraw items. Giving people access to withdraw items does not affect functionality which is what having summons bound to the withdraw option does.

 

Hmm... you sure are argumentative about anything you disagree on.

I think the whole concept of having GS summons being paid from the Guild Bank a bad idea. I much prefer that being in a guild with a GS gives you the option of using it but that you pay the credits yourself.

 

The point about people robbing guild banks when they have the chance is not an unreasonable one. Repair costs makes sense mostly for progression groups that raid together but the summons should be paid for by the player I feel because it avoids various complications, including being restricted to say 100k and only being able to summon 5 times in a week then.

I think the whole concept of having GS summons being paid from the Guild Bank a bad idea. I much prefer that being in a guild with a GS gives you the option of using it but that you pay the credits yourself.

 

The point about people robbing guild banks when they have the chance is not an unreasonable one. Repair costs makes sense mostly for progression groups that raid together but the summons should be paid for by the player I feel because it avoids various complications, including being restricted to say 100k and only being able to summon 5 times in a week then.

That's a great idea. It would also solve the problem of F2P and Preferred not being able to summons since they can't withdraw credits from guild banks. Nice one

 

I quoted your suggestion in the first post, hope the devs take it on board.

Edited November 11, 2019 by UlaVii