Because they get a 3 sec god mode....that's it.

 

Let's check out marauders though:

 

God mode

Invis + dmg reduction

Cloak of pain

Saber ward

Self heals

 

 

Let's keep comparing Ops vs marauders though and see who wins the OP challenge.

4-second non-channeled stun

8-second mez

Dedicated burst heals > 2% heal on a crit

God mode

Perma-invisibility

3-sec God mode and burst heals to replenish all health

Out of combat 8 second mez

Cover mechanic for preventing Force Charge

AND top of this, I don't care about operatives. They are FINE! I don't care if they have burst heals or a 3 second god mode, it's part of the class.

QQ away.

100% immunity to white, *or* yellow attacks, is, by definition, not "god mode". No class gets full immunity to both damage and CC. UR shields against all damage, Shroud protects against 99.9% CC and 100% yellow damage, Evasion provides "immunity" to white damage (they still can, theoretically, be hit by special attacks at accuracy greater than 90% and basic attacks at accuracy greater than 100%).

The point is that Marauders are not the only class that get's a 'so-called' God Mode...

Our God Mode as you call it costs 50% health...

Every mechanic, whether it is UD or Force Shroud or Operative 3 sec thing, IS DIFFERENT.

I wouldn't call it god mode. Only 3 seconds and all classes have weapon based damage (some hit pretty darn hard) but eh, I can counter shroud/resilience with a nice low slash and dance around them while the effect wares off.

Tell that to the sorcs, I had to ditch those 2 lightsaber keybinds a long time ago. I'm not saying I have a problem with force shroud, but I would rather have that than UR any day. It can also be used when it is most needed, not simply to live 4 seconds longer. And there is always an answer to the abilities of classes that need melee range: run away. It's just not what people want to do.

4-second non-channeled stun

8-second mez

Dedicated burst heals > 2% heal on a crit

God mode

Perma-invisibility

3-sec God mode and burst heals to replenish all health

Out of combat 8 second mez

Cover mechanic for preventing Force Charge

 

AND top of this, I don't care about operatives. They are FINE! I don't care if they have burst heals or a 3 second god mode, it's part of the class.

 

QQ away.

Almost all of those are mezzes that if you try to attack again..well they break. Unlike marauders, you can use all your defensive CD's and secure a win or go invis and deny a win in 1vs1. Either way you win...oh also you got a gap closer and the highest speed boost ability in the game. Also you got the best defensives in the game...that includes better than any tank spec.

Also the highest damage output in PVP.

So you get it all on both fronts...gee I wonder why there are so many sents/marauders in pvp now....

Yea I'm still winning...it's not even hard anymore. You even have to list the same things more than twice.

TBH, the OP has stated his intention (however effective) was to shed light on the abilities of the marauder rather than to simply QQ. Seeing as you have hijacked his thread at this point for a mind-numbing recount of every ability that marauders have, while ignoring the abilities that other classes possess as well, I would kindly ask that you move your argument to another thread (lord knows there aren't enough nerf mara threads going on for you to find one). Should you have some input as to how you would suggest maras be changed to improve the state of the game based on the abilities as mentioned in the OP or how other classes may be changed to be brought more in line, feel free to continue posting and we can have a constructive discussion on the topic.

 

So far all I've gotten from your numerous posts is that mara DCDs are too much and other classes that have similar abilities are fine because they don't have as many. Please tell me (anyone can feel free to help out):

1) What you would change or take away from the toolbox of the marauder to balance the PVP game out?

2) Why do you feel the change is necesssary?

3) Would this change make the AC unusable in PVP or how could the class counteract the nerf to continue being a viable AC?

 

If you are able to provide a response including the above parts, then I believe you can open a constructive dialogue with people who understand the class the best.

When UR is up, marauders cannot receive any healing.

Remove the stealth part of the aggro dump marauders get but keep the damage reduction and the speed boost if talented.

That's all it would take to fix it. I give you props for actually making a reasonable post.

When UR is up, marauders cannot receive any healing.

Remove the stealth part of the aggro dump marauders get but keep the damage reduction and the speed boost if talented.

 

That's all it would take to fix it. I give you props for actually making a reasonable post.

As I recall, the main complaint was getting killed by a Marauder while he has UR on (frustration of not being able to kill them before he's healed up seems to be a secondary concern). Why not just reduce damage done under the effects of UR by 50% and call it a day? Or give all attacks - Force and melee a far 50-70% accuracy penalty?

I like stealth the way it is. It's the only way to get a crack at a good sniper.

Almost all of those are mezzes that if you try to attack again..well they break. Unlike marauders, you can use all your defensive CD's and secure a win or go invis and deny a win in 1vs1. Either way you win...oh also you got a gap closer and the highest speed boost ability in the game. Also you got the best defensives in the game...that includes better than any tank spec.

 

Also the highest damage output in PVP.

So you get it all on both fronts...gee I wonder why there are so many sents/marauders in pvp now....

 

Yea I'm still winning...it's not even hard anymore. You even have to list the same things more than twice.

Er, who cares if someone can win 1v1s? If you're in a 1v1 you're not playing objectives (unless guarding/soloing a point).

Powertechs still have the highest damage output in PvP and are arguably the easiest dps class to play, strange that this is not mentioned. To be honest, I think the real reason marauders are played so much are the dual lightsabers, the single pistol for pts isn't as exciting.

I personally love predation, it opens up so many possiblities in pvp. Ideally there would be more utility abilities like it.

I don't understand this fuss about healing during UD. If a healer stops healing everyone to burst a mara back up, he cannot heal anyone else well in that time. and if he's a op or merc, could drop into a lower energy band and gimp himself until it regenerates. Note that if we're talking about balance in high level pvp, my heal with be interupted by the dps assigned to shut me down, so I'll only be able to use a hot and my minor heal. Not really that intimidating Without the healing it becomes a 4 second life extender as straight afterwards you will die, ruining it as a defensive cooldown (1v1s are irrelevant in serious pvp). I wil revise my opinion if you can prove this will improve balance (godmode QQ is not a reasoned argument).

Edit: Someone said marauders should be used as the template for class balance, I'd agree with this. They have 3 viable specs, require good use of abilities to do well and offer a good utility ability. They're fun to play and other classes should be the same.

I did forget to take account of surgical probe spam in my initial statements, which will most likely be the heal used. Assuming 40% crit for an operative healer, he would able to get 2 probes off (GCD of 1.5 seconds x 2 = 3 -will get a third off half a second later assuming mara survives the 0.5 seconds) there would be 1 crit and 1 standard heal. This means a total healing of about 5.5k (3.5k crit, 2k normal) with 2k more soon after. This equates to about a quarter of the marauder's health and is operative only, proving with skilled players UD is less of a concern (with no interupts would be about 10k -two injections one crit one normal).

When UR is up, marauders cannot receive any healing.

Remove the stealth part of the aggro dump marauders get but keep the damage reduction and the speed boost if talented.

 

That's all it would take to fix it. I give you props for actually making a reasonable post.

I don't think removing healing during UR would have quite the impact that many players expect it would. Theoretically, if the mara/sent has a pocket healer that can burst heal them during UR, they should be your target first and the mara/sent no longer has heals. Medpacks would be the exception, but if UR didn't allow for healing, they would just use it prior to UR for the same effect. It's similar to those who argued against reducing sorc's stun down to 10 meters. If you are using your stun correctly (as an escape mechanism or gap creator) then 10 meters is plenty of range and the nerf only affects those who are not using it correctly. I have no problems with making the suggestion you have, but it will only benefit those players who don't focus on the healers first (coming from a healers perspective no less).

As for force camo, it is both highly overrated by other classes and underrated by mara/sents. It is the only way to avoid being rooted to death by snipers without using CC breaker on it. Every other class (aside from jugg/guardian and this is their biggest problem) has abilities that can continue to be used throughout the duration of a root from outside of 10 meters. I'm not saying it is an ideal rotation, but all other classes can do some damage while rooted and at distance. It is an integral part of the kite/antikite dynamic in place at the moment.

That being said, this is not an ability in comparison to what is given to actual stealth classes. It is short duration and they continue taking damage from DoTs as well as any AOEs in the area, so it can't be utilized at the very end right before death. I don't believe this ability can be removed, but I do feel it is available too frequently. It's currently (could be wrong, so correct me if I am) at a 45 sec CD, and could probably increase by about 30 seconds. On my mid level mara, I feel like it is available for use in every fight and I don't think that is necessary.

 

Edit: Someone said marauders should be used as the template for class balance, I'd agree with this. They have 3 viable specs, require good use of abilities to do well and offer a good utility ability. They're fun to play and other classes should be the same.

 

I said it (I'm the thread starter). Marauders would be a very good class to balance around.

And I didn't mention PT Pyros because they would be a very poor class to use as a blueprint. When played well they CAN have a lot of utility (taunt, AE CC, Grapple) but as a general rule they are pretty clunky and really only do well because of their incredible burst DPS ability. And when I say clunky I mean that they are not very mobile, and don't have a lot of tools to use. Basically without their massive burst DPS they would be another vanilla DPS class with poor mobility. You might be able to make the AP mobility argument, but they have to sacrifice a lot of burst capability for that.

A lot of bluster from the maras.

So when can we expect a nerf? 6.6k derps, cloak when you have them down to no health, cc immunity, can get off about 15k of damage during their invulnerability ability, oh and a speed buff. If there was open world pvp they wouldn't be looked at but in warzones where every noob and his dog has one, it iis.

Can't wait for the nerf.

I said it (I'm the thread starter). Marauders would be a very good class to balance around.

 

And I didn't mention PT Pyros because they would be a very poor class to use as a blueprint. When played well they CAN have a lot of utility (taunt, AE CC, Grapple) but as a general rule they are pretty clunky and really only do well because of their incredible burst DPS ability. And when I say clunky I mean that they are not very mobile, and don't have a lot of tools to use. Basically without their massive burst DPS they would be another vanilla DPS class with poor mobility. You might be able to make the AP mobility argument, but they have to sacrifice a lot of burst capability for that.

I'd agree with this, but it makes the point that marauders are not the sole good class (I certainly agree they're not a viable blueprint, way too easy to do well in). The viable classes are all excellent when played well and relatively balanced between each other. In my view, the non-viable classes need to be buffed up to this level, rather than 1 of the viables getting brought down.

A lot of bluster from the maras.

So when can we expect a nerf? 6.6k derps, cloak when you have them down to no health, cc immunity, can get off about 15k of damage during their invulnerability ability, oh and a speed buff. If there was open world pvp they wouldn't be looked at but in warzones where every noob and his dog has one, it iis.

 

Can't wait for the nerf.

15k in 4 seconds requires 7.5k per hit (GCD= 1.5 secs, UD lasts 4 seconds so only 2 abilities can be used) which is almost impossible for a marauder. Would be possible with rage, but 1 spec shouldn't determine class balance and most agree rage needs a bit of tuning anyway.

I would certainly take marauders in world pvp, UD would become even more crucial with the masses of damage flying about (predation would be even more powerful too). Cloak isn't a problem as it only lasts a few seconds, just keep an eye out for where they pop up. Note that they aren't immune to ccs either, requires the use of cooldowns (and then only limited) that would have been useful if not 'wasted'.

Er, who cares if someone can win 1v1s? If you're in a 1v1 you're not playing objectives (unless guarding/soloing a point).

Seeing as how every WZ except huttball always requires someone to be guarding the off node, 1v1s are somewhat important.

Powertechs still have the highest damage output in PvP and are arguably the easiest dps class to play, strange that this is not mentioned. To be honest, I think the real reason marauders are played so much are the dual lightsabers, the single pistol for pts isn't as exciting.

PTs also drop like a little ***** when FFed. They also really have no utility outside of pull. Sents have almost as much burst, but much better surv and way more utility. And people were complaining about PTs just as much as sents before 1.4, but PTs got nerfed quite a bit so people don't complain about them as much.

I don't understand this fuss about healing during UD. If a healer stops healing everyone to burst a mara back up, he cannot heal anyone else well in that time. and if he's a op or merc, could drop into a lower energy band and gimp himself until it regenerates. Note that if we're talking about balance in high level pvp, my heal with be interupted by the dps assigned to shut me down, so I'll only be able to use a hot and my minor heal. Not really that intimidating Without the healing it becomes a 4 second life extender as straight afterwards you will die, ruining it as a defensive cooldown (1v1s are irrelevant in serious pvp). I wil revise my opinion if you can prove this will improve balance (godmode QQ is not a reasoned argument).

Replace the sent in your situation with any other class, and guess what? It's even worse off for the healer. Also, the fact that everyone KNOWS sents have all these abilities makes them unlikely FF targets. CoP, camo, GBTF are all deterrents that force teams to FF anyone but sents first.

I did forget to take account of surgical probe spam in my initial statements, which will most likely be the heal used. Assuming 40% crit for an operative healer, he would able to get 2 probes off (GCD of 1.5 seconds x 2 = 3 -will get a third off half a second later assuming mara survives the 0.5 seconds) there would be 1 crit and 1 standard heal. This means a total healing of about 5.5k (3.5k crit, 2k normal) with 2k more soon after. This equates to about a quarter of the marauder's health and is operative only, proving with skilled players UD is less of a concern (with no interupts would be about 10k -two injections one crit one normal).

Any other class in that situation would be dead, whereas the sent comes out with 1/4 of the HP still. That's a huge difference.

A lot of bluster from the maras.

So when can we expect a nerf? 6.6k derps, cloak when you have them down to no health, cc immunity, can get off about 15k of damage during their invulnerability ability, oh and a speed buff. If there was open world pvp they wouldn't be looked at but in warzones where every noob and his dog has one, it iis.

 

Can't wait for the nerf.

I would like to respond, but I'm not exactly sure what you are claiming with all of this. I assume you are complaining about Rage with the 6.6k derps, which is more of a warrior issue than just maras. I assume cloak is their force camo, which lasts all of 4 seconds (6 if talented in carnage) and they continue being damaged, so if they have a DoT they still die. If you take 15k damage from them during UR, then you are going to die long before they have to use it. Maybe you should consider what you could do differently to avoid 15k damage in 5 seconds (3 globals). Is speed buff in reference to predation? This is not available on demand (unless other CDs are up) and stops them from using some other abilities that may be more helpful to their spec (Berserk for shockwave in Rage, heals in Anni, or lower GCD and rage cost of abilities in carnage).

Based on your comments, perhaps you should look more into the class and learn how to counter the abilities that are giving you the most trouble and plan accordingly. There is plenty of material out on these forums as well as third party sites to assist you if you continually have problems with marauders.

Seeing as how every WZ except huttball always requires someone to be guarding the off node, 1v1s are somewhat important.

 

 

 

PTs also drop like a little ***** when FFed. They also really have no utility outside of pull. Sents have almost as much burst, but much better surv and way more utility. And people were complaining about PTs just as much as sents before 1.4, but PTs got nerfed quite a bit so people don't complain about them as much.

 

 

 

Replace the sent in your situation with any other class, and guess what? It's even worse off for the healer. Also, the fact that everyone KNOWS sents have all these abilities makes them unlikely FF targets. CoP, camo, GBTF are all deterrents that force teams to FF anyone but sents first.

 

 

 

 

 

Any other class in that situation would be dead, whereas the sent comes out with 1/4 of the HP still. That's a huge difference.

True, but not every class is suited to node defending and balancing to account for 1v1s with all classes would be a disaster. Node defending requires the classes that are best suited to it (mara, op, sin, sniper arguably, potentially others). PvP as a whole means that this cannot determine balance, you just have to roll with it.

PT burst is significantly stronger than marauders and cannot be countered well outside of a long cc. Can't be interupted (like ravage), cleansed well (like annilihation) or kited well (like rage). They do drop quickly when focused which is exactly as it should be, they are a class cannon, burst balanced by lower survival.

Note that UD is a defensive cooldown, of course they're going to be better off if they use it, what would be the point otherwise? Other classes have access to other defensives, but the nature of those defensives mean they should be used at a different time. UD just before death, most others just before damage is taken (clever applications aside).

I agree with your point about not focusing marauders first. This is perfectly fine as they can be countered well enough to avoid needing to be focused immediately. A good team will notice when the cooldowns are used and focus then if need be.

I don't think removing healing during UR would have quite the impact that many players expect it would. Theoretically, if the mara/sent has a pocket healer that can burst heal them during UR, they should be your target first and the mara/sent no longer has heals. Medpacks would be the exception, but if UR didn't allow for healing, they would just use it prior to UR for the same effect. It's similar to those who argued against reducing sorc's stun down to 10 meters. If you are using your stun correctly (as an escape mechanism or gap creator) then 10 meters is plenty of range and the nerf only affects those who are not using it correctly. I have no problems with making the suggestion you have, but it will only benefit those players who don't focus on the healers first (coming from a healers perspective no less).

 

As for force camo, it is both highly overrated by other classes and underrated by mara/sents. It is the only way to avoid being rooted to death by snipers without using CC breaker on it. Every other class (aside from jugg/guardian and this is their biggest problem) has abilities that can continue to be used throughout the duration of a root from outside of 10 meters. I'm not saying it is an ideal rotation, but all other classes can do some damage while rooted and at distance. It is an integral part of the kite/antikite dynamic in place at the moment.

 

That being said, this is not an ability in comparison to what is given to actual stealth classes. It is short duration and they continue taking damage from DoTs as well as any AOEs in the area, so it can't be utilized at the very end right before death. I don't believe this ability can be removed, but I do feel it is available too frequently. It's currently (could be wrong, so correct me if I am) at a 45 sec CD, and could probably increase by about 30 seconds. On my mid level mara, I feel like it is available for use in every fight and I don't think that is necessary.

Agree to disagree because this will only go back and forth. I do agree with the suggestion by another poster that to bring other classes up to the marauders level, but since they nerfed PT's it seems they want to go down that path rather than buffing classes.

Don't touch the marauders damage output, but tweak the def CD's they get. I already suggested what should be done about those CD's without hindering them in PVE. You gotta remember it's a pure DPS class, I don't see snipers having this much defense but their output is stellar, as it should be.

I do agree with the suggestion by another poster that to bring other classes up to the marauders level, but since they nerfed PT's it seems they want to go down that path rather than buffing classes.

 

Don't touch the marauders damage output, but tweak the def CD's they get. I already suggested what should be done about those CD's without hindering them in PVE. You gotta remember it's a pure DPS class, I don't see snipers having this much defense but their output is stellar, as it should be.

This is true sadly, but I think most will agree PTs were too easy to do well with. I really hope Bioware stops constantly nerfing, not fun for anyone.

Snipers actually have a lot of defense, just not in the form of cooldowns. With tonnes of roots, knockbacks, absorbs, white damage avoidance, cover, etc they are very strong defensively. Maras are still stronger defensively, but as a melee dps this is how it should be. As an aside, mercs need some of these

Agree to disagree because this will only go back and forth. I do agree with the suggestion by another poster that to bring other classes up to the marauders level, but since they nerfed PT's it seems they want to go down that path rather than buffing classes.

 

Don't touch the marauders damage output, but tweak the def CD's they get. I already suggested what should be done about those CD's without hindering them in PVE. You gotta remember it's a pure DPS class, I don't see snipers having this much defense but their output is stellar, as it should be.

Agreed, but I don't think any of them really need to be changed or removed, simply longer cooldowns. CoP is up every minute and can last as long as 30 seconds depending on the competence of the opponent. Saber Ward is probably the only cooldown I wouldn't extend at all, it is well balanced and shared by jugg/guardian. The strictly PVE people I roll with were shocked when it was suggested to use UR when kephess leaps at them in TFB, they don't even have it keybound. They only use force camo when pulling aggro from the tank and pop one of CoP or SW if there is a cleave or unavoidable damage coming. I don't think changing DCDs will have any significant impact on PVE content other than leveling for less skilled players and let's face it, we're really not balancing things for leveling anyway.

How many 5 people AOEs do you know of that happen per WZ? Do you play a Rage/Focus spec? I do and I can call BS on seeing a 5-person hit in every WZ. The most you generally get is a 3 person hit, and that requires the correct circumstances.

Never said that it did occur in every WZ, and you are correct that a 3 person hit is more likely but it is possible to hit 5 within the game mechanics and I have seen it occur. However, those correct circumstances that you speak of for the 3 person hit occur pretty often in most of the WZs with the only exception being Huttball because it is far more fluid than the others.

Trooper hard hitting abilities are also guaranteed 2.5k hits EVERY TIME, without a crit. When they do crit, they hit for 3.5-4k. That's basically a filler ability that hits for 2.5k when not criting, whereas my VS hits for 2.5-2.7k on a crit, so yeah the damage potential is absolutely there. You let a guy spam Grav round and he will be top DPS, you get 3 Arsenal spec players and they will cause atrocious damage because you can't lock down all 3 Mercs at once.

They only hit that hard IF you manage to get 5 stacks of Grav Round on your target and, in the case of FA, get a COF proc. If you don't they're going to hit for much less.

The damage potential for each I will agree is about even. However, the difference is that a commando's damage is all back loaded, extremely easy to shut down, and is totally dependent on the commando not getting noticed.

To be honest, it is not the single target damage of a smash spec Mara/Sent or Jugg/Guardian that I have the problem with. It's the AOE aspect of it and being able to hit so many, in so short amount of time, for so much damage.

You know I can't believe people are still crying about this clas even after all the nerfs we've gone through. Rather than complain on the forums, learn to play. Unfortunately firmly QQers Bioware knows the class functions and that it is not overpowered. That's why there isn't a healing block dying UR, because that would break annihilation and watchman specs. To those complaining about our 6 second camo, its 6 seconds! Other classes have permanent stealth if they choose to use it. It's also instrumental in how we decimate those Knockback prone snipers and gunslingers.

Bottom line, the stuff you are whining about isn't going to be changed. It would break the class. Watchman already received a nerf to our burn damage. We all received a nerf to force camo damage reduction, and we all received a nerf to gbtf/ur. You can literally stun it for the whole duration with one stun now. Complaining about pocket healers could work for anyone. News flash, not every marauder or sentinel runs around with dedicated heals. Some of us do it on our own. When a watchman or annihilation activates UR and sets off heals, immunity lasts for only 4 seconds. Stun them, then finish them off. You have a medpac use it. Learn to play, don't complain because you were outplayed. People need to stop whining so much. Enough is enough.

You know I can't believe people are still crying about this clas even after all the nerfs we've gone through. Rather than complain on the forums, learn to play. Unfortunately firmly QQers Bioware knows the class functions and that it is not overpowered. That's why there isn't a healing block dying UR, because that would break annihilation and watchman specs. To those complaining about our 6 second camo, its 6 seconds! Other classes have permanent stealth if they choose to use it. It's also instrumental in how we decimate those Knockback prone snipers and gunslingers.

 

Bottom line, the stuff you are whining about isn't going to be changed. It would break the class. Watchman already received a nerf to our burn damage. We all received a nerf to force camo damage reduction, and we all received a nerf to gbtf/ur. You can literally stun it for the whole duration with one stun now. Complaining about pocket healers could work for anyone. News flash, not every marauder or sentinel runs around with dedicated heals. Some of us do it on our own. When a watchman or annihilation activates UR and sets off heals, immunity lasts for only 4 seconds. Stun them, then finish them off. You have a medpac use it. Learn to play, don't complain because you were outplayed. People need to stop whining so much. Enough is enough.

The problem is your staying power in a group environment. You say to stun undying rage and everything will be hunky dory. This is not the case if there is a healer healing him. In that case, he would've been dead if he didn't have his pocket invincibility. However, with a healer, he'll come out healed to about half his hp when every other class would've been dead in that situation. Same applies with force camo. A skilled Marauder just has so many tools with which to stay alive. Before I would've put a lot of effort into stating my points, however Bioware will probably delete this thread like they do all the others that call out Marauders.

So I'll sum it up just by saying... a Marauder is a class that has the defensive cooldowns of a tank. Note I am not talking about passive mitigation without a cooldown up, which is the only reason a pure tank can survive longer than a Marauder. However, it cannot be denied that Marauders have the most and the best defensive cooldowns in the game. However, they still possess the DPS of a pure DPS class. I'm glad some people just can't admit there is an issue with this.

There is really no such thing as class balancing. If every class was equally balanced, what's the point in having 8 to choose from? It's no secret to anyone that mercenary is in uneffective PvP class. To say that they are unusable would be a bit of an overstatement. There are better classes to play, and everyone is welcomed to play one. If you've done the work to top with one class, legacy makes it fairly easy to continue on. Leveling to 50 isn't a long, or difficult trek at all.

Serious PvP is an extremely hardcore endeavor. When you have 8 people in one team, consulting on how to get better, each person playing specific class combinations is inevitable. It may be that your main is a sentinel, however, your teammates know you are better at healing. So they ask you to play a healer class instead.

I assure you that having 8 sentinels on one PvP team is not a sound strategy. It wouldn't even be a sound strategy if you went 4 sentinels, and 4 healers to keep them alive.

They may have overpowered defensive CDs. They may even be the easiest class to play. Truthfully they're one of the most ineffective in a warzone. Considering the high demand for mezs and stuns, it's simply not tactical to kill everything when you can stun to easily achieve your objective.

Sentinels won't do a good job at trapping people in acid, or fire. There's no way to conceal their presence on a node. And if you manage to actually cripple a sentinels HP to such a low level where Guarded by the Force is a benefit, the odds are pretty likely they will die. Because if not, they wouldn't have activated the ability to begin with.

They have almost no escapbility. They can cloak, activate a movement boost, and run, but they will be leapt to and cut down like anything that will uncloak.

If you do not kill them, they will chase and cut through HP like a knife through butter. Without superior equipment, they won't win a 2v1. Much less a 3v1. Not against people who are versed in how to micro manage their cooldowns. Rebuke is the most useful one. Saber Ward means nothing unless you're being targetted by force powers. Namely lightning. And Guarded by the Force means you are aware you are going to die, you just refuse to do so for 4 more seconds. In some cases, you will before those 4 seconds are up. While the damage reduction is extremely high, if you are being targetted by several people at once, their attacks may be enough to drop you anyway.

Hardly what I would consider a god mode. You really need to be smash spec in order to cause significant damage without centering stacked. Let's also not forget that even though you are given 6 immediate attacks, you probably won't get them all off without needing to use a basic attack, a force stasis, or a zealot strike. Only a basic attack if the rest are not on CD.

Given, sentinels are incredibly powerful. But they do what they are intended to do. Whether it's easy, or hard, it's irrelevent. There's no false idea about unless you truly believe they are "hands down" the best PvP class.

They probably are the best PvP class. By no means is it hands down, though. I would say in some cases, guardians are even better. Situation pending, of course.

Fortunately, warzones aren't a DPS race. So it's kind of irrelevent how much damage you do if your team ends up losing. And the funny part is, no warzone actually even takes into consideration how much damage you do.

True, but not every class is suited to node defending and balancing to account for 1v1s with all classes would be a disaster. Node defending requires the classes that are best suited to it (mara, op, sin, sniper arguably, potentially others). PvP as a whole means that this cannot determine balance, you just have to roll with it.

 

PT burst is significantly stronger than marauders and cannot be countered well outside of a long cc. Can't be interupted (like ravage), cleansed well (like annilihation) or kited well (like rage). They do drop quickly when focused which is exactly as it should be, they are a class cannon, burst balanced by lower survival.

 

Note that UD is a defensive cooldown, of course they're going to be better off if they use it, what would be the point otherwise? Other classes have access to other defensives, but the nature of those defensives mean they should be used at a different time. UD just before death, most others just before damage is taken (clever applications aside).

 

I agree with your point about not focusing marauders first. This is perfectly fine as they can be countered well enough to avoid needing to be focused immediately. A good team will notice when the cooldowns are used and focus then if need be.

I would not say VG burst is significantly stronger than sent, seeing as how a sweep bomb into a group of people is harder to heal through than just one person getting nuked. You're right that VGs are glass cannons, and guess what the best counter to a glass cannon is? Kill them first. That doesn't work with sents, and chain CCing them doesn't quite work if their team has good healers that know what cleanse is.

I agree with you the game shouldn't be balanced SOLELY around 1v1s, but it should be balanced around it partially. I'm fine with having a LoL type (rock, paper, scissor) balance for 1v1s, but currently it's rock, paper, scissor, HULKSMASH, where sent, vgs, shadows are the HULKSMASH that own everyone else. That's not ok.

In WoW (the only other MMO I've played seriously), every class had a good chance to beat most other classes, and get utterly owned by some (or at least manage to stalemate). And they still managed to balance the overall larger scale pvp quite well.

I would not say VG burst is significantly stronger than sent, seeing as how a sweep bomb into a group of people is harder to heal through than just one person getting nuked. You're right that VGs are glass cannons, and guess what the best counter to a glass cannon is? Kill them first. That doesn't work with sents, and chain CCing them doesn't quite work if their team has good healers that know what cleanse is.

 

I agree with you the game shouldn't be balanced SOLELY around 1v1s, but it should be balanced around it partially. I'm fine with having a LoL type (rock, paper, scissor) balance for 1v1s, but currently it's rock, paper, scissor, HULKSMASH, where sent, vgs, shadows are the HULKSMASH that own everyone else. That's not ok.

 

In WoW (the only other MMO I've played seriously), every class had a good chance to beat most other classes, and get utterly owned by some (or at least manage to stalemate). And they still managed to balance the overall larger scale pvp quite well.

I'll give it to you on the aoe burst point, my error for forgeting that. However, I've never really worried about smash as an aoe, 3+ people standing beside each other for the smash is just plain stupid. I think most of us agree rage needs a minor nerf too.

I'd agree with partial balancing for 1v1s if that didn't detract from group pvp (which should trump all), I was getting a bit irritated at people insisting 1v1s were the sole determinant of a class and so generalised slightly. I don't really like the rock paper scissors system though, as long as there are counters to a class I see no need for classes specifically suited for defeating another. I prefer skill deciding the winner where possible (limited by the need for group balance, but that's as it should be).

I really don't get the UR hate - it just doesn't break down under any logical scrutiny at all. At least I haven't heard the logic...

What's the difference between UR and a 4-second hard stun ability (assume, hypothetically, that a mara has a choice of either)?

With UR the mara is getting cc'd, taking a little damage (no joke - I've died several times from damage while under UR) and the mara is swinging away (if he's not cc'd). So far so good.

With a 4 second stun the mara is swinging away, not taking any damage (you're stunned) - he can't be cc'd by you (because you're stunned) _and_ he's getting healed if he has a healer on him, omg.

Ah, you say... but I can pop my trinket ability during the hypothetical mara 4-second stun. That is true - that's one def every two min (or so) to stop this hypothetical stun. But, you can always stun or kb or root/snare a UR affected Mara or you can vanish/sprint away or pop heals/defenses of your own or do any number of things - lots more options vs the UR mara - almost all with lower cooldowns than the trinket vs the stun.

Are healers afraid of maras running up to them and hitting their UR button? NO (they would -laugh- and hit you with a dot if you pulled that in a 1v1). As a mara, I would much much much rather have a 4 second stun than UR. UR is nice because it lets you pretend your a god when you're fighting 5 people and got them all to focus on you but it's a very short-lived feeling.

And let's not forget that while a stun never costs the caster of the stun anything, the caster of UR loses half his health. That is not something you spam for fun.

Note, if we're talking about a 2v2 or a 3v3 or a 4v4 situation and the mara is getting heals while popping UR every 45 secs... why are you attacking the mara at all (or -any- dps) and not the healer(s) and/or tanks?

I really don't get the UR hate - it just doesn't break down under any logical scrutiny at all. At least I haven't heard the logic...

 

What's the difference between UR and a 4-second hard stun ability (assume, hypothetically, that a mara has a choice of either)?

 

With UR the mara is getting cc'd, taking a little damage (no joke - I've died several times from damage while under UR) and the mara is swinging away (if he's not cc'd). So far so good.

 

With a 4 second stun the mara is swinging away, not taking any damage (you're stunned) - he can't be cc'd by you (because you're stunned) _and_ he's getting healed if he has a healer on him, omg.

 

Ah, you say... but I can pop my trinket ability during the hypothetical mara 4-second stun. That is true - that's one def every two min (or so) to stop this hypothetical stun. But, you can always stun or kb or root/snare a UR affected Mara or you can vanish/sprint away or pop heals/defenses of your own or do any number of things - lots more options vs the UR mara - almost all with lower cooldowns than the trinket vs the stun.

 

Are healers afraid of maras running up to them and hitting their UR button? NO (they would -laugh- and hit you with a dot if you pulled that in a 1v1). As a mara, I would much much much rather have a 4 second stun than UR. UR is nice because it lets you pretend your a god when you're fighting 5 people and got them all to focus on you but it's a very short-lived feeling.

 

And let's not forget that while a stun never costs the caster of the stun anything, the caster of UR loses half his health. That is not something you spam for fun.

 

Note, if we're talking about a 2v2 or a 3v3 or a 4v4 situation and the mara is getting heals while popping UR every 45 secs... why are you attacking the mara at all (or -any- dps) and not the healer(s) and/or tanks?

You don't understand your ability very well at all. If you died while using it then you must have clicked it as absurdly low HP and if you ever lose 50% health when you activate it then you need to L2P. Using it at full health is LOL.

And FYI there is a LOT of difference between UR and a stun ability. How can you even compare the two? Really guy? You really don't have a grasp of your class if you would trade UR for a 4 sec hard stun.