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Underworld PvE Relics


dipstik

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underworld stuff: rememebr to check if the relic is force or tech! vendor has no tech internal/elemental relics, so tech users with less than 38% armor reduction (see notes at end) shuld wait for bioware to address this and get the next BiS relic.

 

assumptions need to be made. lets say dot specs have 1 action every 0.7 seconds and everyone else has 1 action every 1.5 seconds. lets say if you have a 30% chance to proc something, that it will take you 3 actions to proc it after the cooldown of the proc.

 

on use power: 425*1.05*0.23= 102.6 bonus damage per action. for 30 seconds: dot users get 42.9 actions, for 4403 damage every 120 seconds giving 36.7 dps. other users get 20 actions for 2052 damage over 120 seconds gives 17.1 dps.

 

proc power: 550*1.05*.23= 132.8 bonus damage per action. for 6 seconds: dot specs get 8.57 actions, for 1138.3 damage every 20+3*(0.7)= 22.1 seconds giving 51.5 dps. other users get 4 actions for 531.2 damage every 20+1.5*3= 24.5 seconds giving 21.7 dps.

 

proc elemental/internal: 264 damage each pro. dot users: one proc every 4.5+3*0.7=6.6 seconds gives 40 dps. other users: proc every 4.5+3*1.5=9 seconds for 29.3 dps.

 

proc kinetic/energy: assuming the equations below hold and data from guildy was good (275 damage form 352 kinetic attack), and my assumption that arsenal stance still has 35% armor reduction from stance and 20% from tracer stack, the the following holds: operation dummy has 6354 armor rating, which means you need 38.1% armor reduction to make the kinetic relic do as much damage as the internal/elemental relic.

 

 

 

armor reduction: ar(p):=x*(1-p) / ( x*(1-p) + 200 * 55 + 800 ), x is armor rating, p is armor reduction (remember the amount from skills vs. debuffs add multiplicativly... so your total will be p=1 - (1-p1)*(1-p2).. where p1 is from debuffs and p2 is from skill/stance etc.

i*(1-ar(p)) = f, where i is intial kinetic/energy damage, f is final damage after armor reduction

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I'm afraid you've completely forgotten about both damage coefficients and any spec-related bonuses, which makes your numbers for the power relics completely wrong, especially the part about dot specs. The damage proc relic numbers are also probably wrong, since they benefit from your stats to some extent as well (after all, why else would force-users prefer the force relic etc.).

 

In other words, a nice effort, but the calculations are more complicated than what you've done there.

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I'm afraid you've completely forgotten about both damage coefficients and any spec-related bonuses, which makes your numbers for the power relics completely wrong, especially the part about dot specs. The damage proc relic numbers are also probably wrong, since they benefit from your stats to some extent as well (after all, why else would force-users prefer the force relic etc.).

 

In other words, a nice effort, but the calculations are more complicated than what you've done there.

 

not sure what you mean by damage coefficents. like (1+c*s)*(1-miss)? if this is the case, then the above analysis is still fine because you are comparing bonus damage to bonus damage. all of the dps numbers (just used to compare not predict parses, as a simulator is the best thing for that, and i agree the simulator is much mroe complicated) will have (1+c*s)*(1-miss) apply. even the force/tech internal/elemental has resist now.

which spec related bonuses would you like to add to the model?

 

i only ask because i think you are trolling me based on your post count

Edited by dipstik
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He's not trolling you, the coefficent of DPS is as followed if we use lightning strike as an example

 

SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.14, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>1.5, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.16, DamageType=>Energy

 

Expected damage=((base damage+(Coefficient*Bonus damage))*Expected modifier) (Then any buffs and debuffs including the % to even hit.)

 

how you calculate this is your low and high modifier (o.14-0.16 x 7055/2 is the base Damage amount. We then apply your bonus damage x the coefficient to add to the damage of the base amount. Once that is done we apply the overall expected modifier which is your surge and critical rating expected on top of your power based DPS, but can be chucked up to =(1-(crit/100)) +( (1+(surge/100))*(crit/100)) on top of that amount to get your expected DPS for that one move before adding any buffs like bonus damage or higher crit rating for certain moves, but not all.

 

Aka, you need more data then just doing simple math to figure out how much these proc relics work. Non DoT specs BiS is the new Serp Assult and power clickie.

Edited by mastirkal
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He's not trolling you, the coefficent of DPS is as followed if we use lightning strike as an example

 

SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.14, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>1.5, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.16, DamageType=>Energy

 

Expected damage=((base damage+(Coefficient*Bonus damage))*Expected modifier) (Then any buffs and debuffs including the % to even hit.)

 

how you calculate this is your low and high modifier (o.14-0.16 x 7055/2 is the base Damage amount. We then apply your bonus damage x the coefficient to add to the damage of the base amount. Once that is done we apply the overall expected modifier which is your surge and critical rating expected on top of your power based DPS, but can be chucked up to =(1-(crit/100)) +( (1+(surge/100))*(crit/100)) on top of that amount to get your expected DPS for that one move before adding any buffs like bonus damage or higher crit rating for certain moves, but not all.

 

Aka, you need more data then just doing simple math to figure out how much these proc relics work. Non DoT specs BiS is the new Serp Assult and power clickie.

 

ah okay, so each ability has its own coefficent for bonus damage, so

 

dps=(base+bd*coeff)*(1+c*s)*(1-miss)/(1-a)

 

where base is base dps, before bonus damage, crit, surge, alacrity or accuracy, but after skill tree stuff that doesnt affect those latter values.

bd is bonus damage

coeff is the multiplier of bonus damage for each ability

c is crit, fraction

s is surge, fraction

miss is chance to miss, fraction, based on accuracy and offhand info

a is alacrity, fraction

 

 

it seems difficult to seperate out the coefficent data. the only thing i can think of is analyzing 2 parses with different amountds of bd and analyzing the non crit values.

 

low=base+bdlow*coeff

high=base+bdhigh*coeff

 

since bdlow and high are known, as well as low and high, we can solve for coeff and base.

 

to get a friendly term to use before crit, surge etc, get each abilities contribution to dps, as a fraction, call it f1 through fn. solve for the base values (final=(base+coeff*bd)*(1+c*s)) . use a weighted average:

 

base=f1*base1+f2*base2...+fn*basen. because f1 is based off number sthat include surge etc, this is an approximation. we can do something similar for the coeff,

 

coeff=f1*coeff1+f2*coeff2+...+fn*coeffn

 

this should hopefully give us

 

dps=(base+coeff*bd)*(1+c*s)*(1-miss)/(1-a)

 

where we can use weighted sums for crit, surge, alacrity and miss. this is just to avoid rotation simulations.

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here is how you find the values. might be easier if you remove all yoru skill points to remove as many buffs to the abiltiy as possible

 

hit1a=min*base+bd1*coeff

hit1b=max*base+bd1*coeff

 

hit2a=min*base+bd2*coeff

hit2b=max*base+bd2*coeff

 

where bd1 and bd2 are bonus damage levels, hit1a hit 1b hit 2a and hi2b are non crit damage values, one high and one low for each parse.

 

min max base and coeff vare the values we are looking for

 

some equations work out nicely

 

coeff=(hit2a+hit1a)/(bd1+bd2)

 

min = (hit2a*bd1-bd2*hit1a)/(hit2a+hit1a)

 

base = -(hit2a+hit1a)/(bd1+bd2)

 

max= ((-hit1b+hit2a+hit1a)*bd1-hit1b*bd2)/(hit2a+hit1a)

 

. for a system with no min max you can use coeff and base equaitons, just remove a and b suffix.

Edited by dipstik
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not sure what you mean by damage coefficents. like (1+c*s)*(1-miss)? if this is the case, then the above analysis is still fine because you are comparing bonus damage to bonus damage. all of the dps numbers (just used to compare not predict parses, as a simulator is the best thing for that, and i agree the simulator is much mroe complicated) will have (1+c*s)*(1-miss) apply. even the force/tech internal/elemental has resist now.

which spec related bonuses would you like to add to the model?

 

i only ask because i think you are trolling me based on your post count

 

As was pointed out, I'm not trolling, the post count is due to my general laziness in even reading the official forums.

 

Anyway, the points I was trying to convey were that a) you cannot compare relics with power to the damage proc relic without full theorycrafting on the given spec, since you need to know exactly which abilities are used and how often due to the different bonus damage coefficients, and b) the comparison of dot-users vs. others is wrong for similar reasons, since dots naturally have very low bonus damage coefficients for each tick.

 

In fact, the only comparison like this that you *can* make without having a lot more data is the comparison of proc power vs. on use power, and there your approach does seem correct.

 

Apologies if I was unclear before.

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As was pointed out, I'm not trolling, the post count is due to my general laziness in even reading the official forums.

 

Anyway, the points I was trying to convey were that a) you cannot compare relics with power to the damage proc relic without full theorycrafting on the given spec, since you need to know exactly which abilities are used and how often due to the different bonus damage coefficients, and b) the comparison of dot-users vs. others is wrong for similar reasons, since dots naturally have very low bonus damage coefficients for each tick.

 

In fact, the only comparison like this that you *can* make without having a lot more data is the comparison of proc power vs. on use power, and there your approach does seem correct.

 

Apologies if I was unclear before.

 

i apologize for being so dismissive, as i am the one being ignorant. i basiclly used an analysis someone did when DG came out, assuming they knew what they were talking about, but they may have been comparing static power to on use power.

 

without a simulator, doing a comparison is going to be a long trudge through unfamiliar waters. best bet is to just parse with one, then the other, using the 2 hour turn in timer. problem is the difference in dps could be 5, which will not be noticeable with a small sample of parses.

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So boundless + proc power looks like bis for dps? I mean, that was my assumption from the beginning when I saw the new relics but I was hoping for something else, I like diversity and having a best choice for each spec/class instead of just a no-brainer for everyone, there's just no reason for the proc dmg relics to be in game if that is case.
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underworld stuff: rememebr to check if the relic is force or tech! vendor has no tech internal/elemental relics, so tech users with less than 38% armor reduction (see notes at end) shuld wait for bioware to address this and get the next BiS relic.

 

Why? Tech Elemental *does* use the Tech crit chance, while Force Internal uses the Force crit chance (verified via parsing).

 

Based on your analysis, as well as the on-use vs proc power analysis, I would say the relic choices are pretty much what they used to be: internal/elemental proc + on-use power unless you are a gunnery commando/arsenal merc, in which case you want the kinetic/energy proc + on-use power. If you absolutely cannot bring yourself to time an on-use power relic, or you have a spec without any significant burst phases, it's probably better to use the on-proc power relic.

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Why? Tech Elemental *does* use the Tech crit chance, while Force Internal uses the Force crit chance (verified via parsing).

 

Based on your analysis, as well as the on-use vs proc power analysis, I would say the relic choices are pretty much what they used to be: internal/elemental proc + on-use power unless you are a gunnery commando/arsenal merc, in which case you want the kinetic/energy proc + on-use power. If you absolutely cannot bring yourself to time an on-use power relic, or you have a spec without any significant burst phases, it's probably better to use the on-proc power relic.

 

i wasn't able to find an underworld tech internal or tech elemental relic. maybe i missed it but i looked for like 5 mins.

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From what I have seen the power proc gives you more average power per second than the click, the power click gives you the power when you need it though. I plan on using damage proc + power proc for normal circumstances and swaping teh power proc with power click for bosses where that it advantageous.
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From what I have seen the power proc gives you more average power per second than the click, the power click gives you the power when you need it though. I plan on using damage proc + power proc for normal circumstances and swaping teh power proc with power click for bosses where that it advantageous.

 

Personally, I very much doubt the damage proc relic will outperform any of the power relics, so I'd go power proc and power clicky.

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Personally, I very much doubt the damage proc relic will outperform any of the power relics, so I'd go power proc and power clicky.

 

It may vary by class. For gunnery commandos at least it outperformed PVE and PVP power relics at the DG level. I wouldn't count it out. 352ish damage every 7.5 seconds or so is substantial.

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It may vary by class. For gunnery commandos at least it outperformed PVE and PVP power relics at the DG level. I wouldn't count it out. 352ish damage every 7.5 seconds or so is substantial.

 

Well, so is a rough average of 150 power (~36.2 bonus damage) from the proc power and 106 average power (~26.6 bonus damage) on-demand for syncing with other CDs, and you may even be able to sync up the 550 proc power with high damage abilities - like with a RS for me as a PT, or with unload+HSM for a merc (not sure about commando names). You might be right though.

Edited by steave
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Also keep in mind that the on-use Power relics can only be calculated in a "best" worst-case scenario. What I mean by this is that when calculating an estimated DPS value, they assume two things: the relic is used roughly on cooldown, and that the full cooldown is part of combat. However, this is rarely the case. Fights last 3 minutes, or 4:30 minutes, not in exact multiples of 2 minutes. If a fight only lasts 30 seconds, you're still getting 2 minutes worth of relic DPS in that shorter 30 second time span, if that makes sense. This advantage becomes smaller the longer a fight goes, but even if a fight lasts 5 minutes, you're getting 6 minutes (3 uses) worth of relic DPS into that shorter period. Any fight with downtime (phase changes, invuln phases) amplifies this because you are essentially losing uptime on proc relics (because you're no longer doing anything to proc it) while gaining overall uptime on your on-use relics (because you're getting 'free" time off of the cooldown, meaning it's unavailable for less of the actual fight). It's very difficult to actually theorycraft the actual DPS value of these on-use relics, and is extremely dependent on group comp and skill level (how long each boss takes to kill in relation to the 2 minute cooldown periods) as well each individual encounter. As a general rule though, they're very strong relics and *if* you are good about using them often and at appropriate times ( <-- emphasis here), they are often deceivingly stronger than most people give them credit for.

 

I'll most likely be going on-use Power and proc Power most often.

 

tl;dr: On-use Power relics are strong.

Edited by Synavix
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When I started looking at my parses, I was really unhappy with the damage proc.

 

I got the DG Kinetic Tempest before 2.0 based purely off of advice on the forums, and never really tested it. When I started getting the 2.0 relics, and spend a bit of time parsing, I saw what should have been obvious to me before. The proc damage relics don't scale with main stat increases or with power rating.

 

Crit + surge will help, but crit is hard to come by in 2.0. Grav Wave typically accounts for a total of 30 dps over the course a longer fight using the DG Kinetic relic. But the power relics add up for quite a bit more as their affect applies to the hard-hitting attacks.

 

I'm currently running with the Underworld Serendipitous and the Partisan Serendipitous. Hopefully I can get the Boundless Ages soon and parse with the clicky and see how that goes.

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When I started getting the 2.0 relics, and spend a bit of time parsing, I saw what should have been obvious to me before. The proc damage relics don't scale with main stat increases or with power rating.

 

Neither does power. X amount of power always adds Y amount of damage to ability Z, which is the amplified by crit and syrge - power has a linear growth rather than exponential.

Your attacks will do more damage with the higher stats, but the amount coming from your relic won't go up.

Edited by steave
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Neither does power. X amount of power always adds Y amount of damage to ability Z, which is the amplified by crit and syrge - power has a linear growth rather than exponential.

Your attacks will do more damage with the higher stats, but the amount coming from your relic won't go up.

I'm not sure this is correct.

 

I've gone from an 8k Demolition Round crit to an 11k Demolition Round crit with an Attack Adrenal and Boundless Ages click. That's approx 1000 additional power for those few seconds, and is increasing the damage by 3000 points for a single hit.

 

Yet the other attacks (e.g. Hammer Shot) don't increase anywhere near as much.

 

Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like the higher the base damage on a particular attack, the more an increase in mainstat or power will affect it.

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as spoken abot earlier, attacks have power modifiers.

 

so you have base+mod*power= final

 

so if mod< certain amount, then crit might be better. people ahve been trying to use a coefficent per second to model this. i have seen that dots have lower mod values (0.2) than big hits, which can have 1.6 or 1.9 mods.

Edited by dipstik
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as spoken abot earlier, attacks have power modifiers.

 

so you have base+mod*power= final

 

so if mod< certain amount, then crit might be better. people ahve been trying to use a coefficent per second to model this. i have seen that dots have lower mod values (0.2) than big hits, which can have 1.6 or 1.9 mods.

This makes sense.

 

A proc damage relic would be better than a +power relic while using low power modified abilities (e.g. 0.2).

 

As long as your power relic is affecting your high mod abilities (e.g.1.6), it would exceed the benefit of the proc damage relic.

Edited by Khevar
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  • 2 weeks later...

Not for Underworld Relics since I haven't gotten my hands on them yet, but i did some parsing today after picking up the Partisan +Power Proc relic.

 

Previous DG +Power On Use and DG Dmg Proc Relic would give me ~2250 DPS on an Ops Dummy (Watchmen Sent).

 

Swapping to DG +Power On Use and Partisan +Power Proc would give me around ~2240, not quite as high as before, but certainly comparable.

 

Seeing as they were so similar, i ran the DG Dmg Proc Relic and Partisan +Power Proc together and it resulted in ~2350 DPS.

 

From this, my current plan is to either go for Underworld +Power Proc and +Dmg Proc or have both Conqueror and Underworld +Power Proc relics.

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