Here is a novel way to address the solo vs premade issue in regs without splitting the queue as such.

First let me state, this isn’t the perfect solution and it’s possible there may still be times that solo players would be against premades, but only if they choose.

At the moment we have one way to queue Regs and we all go into that queue, but there are two buttons that say queue group or queue solo (generalising).

What if there was another two buttons that said solo random and group random. And what do I mean by that?

Well at the moment when we queue it doesn’t differentiate between a solo player or Premade, it’s first in, first out when it makes teams.

But what if the system actually adhered to the 4 buttons people choose to queue from and then made the teams based more on how people queued instead of first in and first out.

If you queue solo, the queue would try and make only solo teams and only under extreme circumstances (like 10 min wait times) would it ask you to play against premades.

If you queue group, the queue would only try to make premade games and only under certain circumstance would it put solo players in the game. Ie, not another premade or not enough premades to make up full teams.

If you queue random in solo or group, the queue would not adhere to either the solo formula or the premade formula. It would balance the teams by who was available at the time and then balance each individual players skill to matchmake.

Premade players would be rated individually and not as a group.

Here’s the catch and why it’s not perfect.

In the case of the solo players who only want to play solo players, the queue might by pass them till there is enough “solo only” players queued to make a match for them. This might mean they have slightly longer pop times.

In the case of the group queued players who choose the group queue, they may also have to wait a little longer for pops if there aren’t enough premades to make up 8v8 teams or 4v4.

The winners from this would be the players who queued random because the solo random players are likely to help fill up the solo queued teams and the group randoms are likely to fill up the group queue teams. But if there aren’t enough players at that specific moment to make solo only or group only teams, the random queued guys would be given priority and put into mixed solo vs premades. This of course means their pop times would theoretically be the shortest and that would be part of the reward or encouragement for queuing up through the random button.

And if the reward for shorter pops isn’t enough to encourage solo / group players to hit the random queue button, Bioware could add a reward or mission or CQ achievement for playing “x” amount of matches queued random.

Blizzard actually have a system like this for World or Warcraft (or at least they used to, I don’t know anymore). And it used to work well where there would be a map of the day or map of the week and random maps,

My suggestion is something similar, but instead of it being map of the day or random maps, it’s random play type.

Of course this isn’t a perfect solution, but it does give players options to avoid premades or only play premades if they want without it fully dividing the population up too much.

And there should be a pop time “pressure valve” added in for the solo and group queued people so that after 10 mins or what ever time Bioware deemed appropriate,

The system would ask the players in those seperate groups to accept being flagged as a random player/group or to remain as they are. If they say remain as they are, then their pop timer resets and they get another 10 mins wait till the system asks again. That is of course “if” they haven’t had a pop happen in the 10 mins.

If they accept being flagged random, the queue would make teams from all queued. With caveat that the better solo players in the queue get put against the premade to balance them out and the premade has to carry the weaker solo players

After a while, I think the majority would queue up random. But it would also give people an outlet if they don’t want to be put in a solo vs premade situations and they don’t mind waiting for solo only pops or group only pops.

What do you guys think? Could it work without degrading over all pop times too much for random queue players and is there anything you can suggest that would make it work better or work smoother.

Edit: I just realised I posted this in the gen section when my intent was for the pvp section. But it might be better here to start with to see what the general/ casual player population thinks too,

It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't really address the origin of the problem(1), which is that people are *bothering* to organise premades in regs.

Given that, what if they changed regs to be solo-only? That is, grouped players are not placed in the queue as a *group*, but as four solo players, or, indeed, as just the one player who pressed the button. If it pops before the others press the button, too bad, and in any event, they'd be solo as well.

(1) That's assuming that it *is* a problem, which is something I don't care to debate. It's certainly *problematic*, especially now that lost matches don't progress dailies etc. *and* there's a punitive penalty for quitting obviously-lost matches.

It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't really address the origin of the problem(1), which is that people are *bothering* to organise premades in regs.

 

Given that, what if they changed regs to be solo-only? That is, grouped players are not placed in the queue as a *group*, but as four solo players, or, indeed, as just the one player who pressed the button. If it pops before the others press the button, too bad, and in any event, they'd be solo as well.

 

(1) That's assuming that it *is* a problem, which is something I don't care to debate. It's certainly *problematic*, especially now that lost matches don't progress dailies etc. *and* there's a punitive penalty for quitting obviously-lost matches.

I was looking for a compromise between removing premades, splitting the queues completely or leaving it as is and delivering a poor experience for casual solo players.

I know it’s not a perfect solution, hardly any compromises in life are. And you can be sure some people on either side of the discussion won’t consider it good enough to fit their needs.

What would be good is a healthy discussion on how Bioware can compromise to allow premade groups to keep playing in regs and at the same time improve the experience of causal solo players. The important part to remember is queue pops, Bioware won’t do anything if it drastically increases pop times for the overall reg population.

It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't really address the origin of the problem(1), which is that people are *bothering* to organise premades in regs.

 

Given that, what if they changed regs to be solo-only? That is, grouped players are not placed in the queue as a *group*, but as four solo players, or, indeed, as just the one player who pressed the button. If it pops before the others press the button, too bad, and in any event, they'd be solo as well.

 

(1) That's assuming that it *is* a problem, which is something I don't care to debate. It's certainly *problematic*, especially now that lost matches don't progress dailies etc. *and* there's a punitive penalty for quitting obviously-lost matches.

So then you'd never PVP with your friends.

That's not a good idea either.

I think the solution is simple: Fix matchmaking so that it prioritizes premades with premades, and solo with solo

This system would likely remove option for premades to participate in regs in a more "subtle" way then banning them hard. I am going to explain it below:

At first glance this system may sound almost perfect, as it allows solo players that hate premades to avoid them completely if they choose to. If the system is unable to create games for them, it simply means there are not enough solo players like them in queue that also want to avoid premades. But that is very unlikely. What will likely happen is the exact opposite. There probably are too many solo players that want to avoid premades and the system will have enough soloers in queue to create solo-only games for them.

But that means premades in queue (no matter if group only or random) will have to wait eternity because of two factors: Not enough solo random players in queue and not enough other premades either. So this will effectively remove the chance of premades to play regs, but as I said in a more "subtle" way as instead of removing the option for premades to queue it will take away players to play with. More subtle, yet with the same hard effect.

What do you guys think? Could it work without degrading over all pop times too much for random queue players and is there anything you can suggest that would make it work better or work smoother.

No, sadly there is no possible solution to have the cake and eat it, too. Either you

1.) effectively remove the option for premades (of 4 players) to play regs:

a) in a hard way by removing the option for them to queue (this includes limiting their maximum size btw)

b) in a subtle way like yours or

c) in another subtle way like splitting queue to solo-only & group only; or you

2.) force soloers to play with premades.

Can't have both. I am sorry.

My personal view is that the number of players that click "solo queue" only will vastly out number the solo players / groups queueing. It wont even be close.

Not all pre mades are bad, its the "TDM" groups that are pissing people off and they're really pushing people. I played 4 games yesterday and twice was grouped with a premade that basically just TDMed and ops chat was filled with such hate. People were truly angry and pissed off. I hadnt seen that much hate and vitriol in ops chat in a long time.

My personal view is that the number of players that click "solo queue" only will vastly out number the solo players / groups queueing. It wont even be close.

 

Not all pre mades are bad, its the "TDM" groups that are pissing people off and they're really pushing people. I played 4 games yesterday and twice was grouped with a premade that basically just TDMed and ops chat was filled with such hate. People were truly angry and pissed off. I hadnt seen that much hate and vitriol in ops chat in a long time.

uhhhhh no. I don't see anyone raging because a team brought in a sin tank. The problem is one particular skank that has been ridiculously OP since 4.0. But instead of listening to smart people and nerfing their damage, BW listened to the forums, where everyone "pinky-swore" to use tank gear if absorb worked properly. That worked out well :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Premades have been an issue in regs since day one.

It's extremely obvious when you're matched with or against a premade. You either get destroyed or you destroy the opponent. Matches aren't even close. 6-0 in Huttball, three caps on objectives, etc.

No, the queue system as it is currently is fine and has been since launch. Premades are only half of a team. The other half of the team of pugs can just as easily cause a loss as they can help win the game.

I think the solution is simple: Fix matchmaking so that it prioritizes premades with premades, and solo with solo

It already does this.

As always, the proof is in the pudding. No one cares about getting 4 players from a bad guild on the other team. The issue isn't "premades" -- it's matchmaking. Really, it's the low population and the astonishingly low average skill of pvpers in swtor, so even the best matchmaking algo is going to struggle.

I said something similar here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=989508&page=2

No, sadly there is no possible solution to have the cake and eat it, too. Either you

 

1.) effectively remove the option for premades (of 4 players) to play regs:

a) in a hard way by removing the option for them to queue (this includes limiting their maximum size btw)

b) in a subtle way like yours or

c) in another subtle way like splitting queue to solo-only & group only; or you

 

2.) force soloers to play with premades.

 

Can't have both. I am sorry.

Honestly, I thought Trixxie meant to split the queue by Group AND Solo or SOLO ONLY. I'd go with Solo only probably most of the time.

Of course, that's if the population supported it. With our current population likely one queue would be a wasteland (similar to PvP instances of world maps); and if that were the group AND Solo queue (were such a thing to be introduced), then likely PvP and the PvP subscriber base would drop precipitously.

Honestly, I thought Trixxie meant to split the queue by Group AND Solo or SOLO ONLY. I'd go with Solo only probably most of the time.

 

Of course, that's if the population supported it. With our current population likely one queue would be a wasteland (similar to PvP instances of world maps); and if that were the group AND Solo queue (were such a thing to be introduced), then likely PvP and the PvP subscriber base would drop precipitously.

I definitely meant it to be 3 ways to queue. SOLO ONLY, GROUP ONLY and SOLO+GROUP. But the last group is more like a “pool” that the other two can pull players from if needed.

That would mean if you pick the third group and tthere aren’t enough players in either of the first two groups to make SOLO ONLY or GROUP ONLY matches, it would put you into a mixed match.

The benefit from picking the third way to queue is you would always be ready for any match and would most likely pop more matches because you are 100% first in and first out because of your availability.

If you choose either of the other two ways to queue, you would rely on enough players also choosing that and enough players in the third group to use as a pool to pull the needed players. This would mean you might not pop as fast as someone in the third group. But Bioware could add a pressure value on the pop timer if they are taking too long. It would activate a Pop up message after x amount of time to ask if you wanted to switch priority to be considered in the third group. If you decline, it goes on a cool down till the “pressure valve” activated again. This way you have a choice. You can keep waiting for your preferred option or you can jump into what ever the match the game has ready to make,

Honestly, I think the guys in the GROUP ONY would have an easier time getting matches out side of primetime than the SOLO ONLY guys because they would already have part of a team together,

So in my mind, the theory is the people in the third group of SOLO-GROUP would probably get the most pops, then the GROUP-ONLY would get the next highest and then SOLO-ONLY.

And that’s not to marginalise any group. It’s just working on numbers of people available and the fact that premades have less compunction to rolling against solo pugs. So I’m assuming they would be most likely to accept the pressure value pop-up if their pop times were slow.

Of course, if there is only one premade and no one is choosing the third way to queue, that premade could be waiting for a long time. Similar to how ranked can slow at certain times of the day.

I would also define a premade as 2 or more players. So you might have groups of 2, 3 or 4 in the GROUP-ONLY queue. In practice though, I would expect most of the 2-3 man groups to queue up in the SOLO-GROUP.

Honestly, I thought Trixxie meant to split the queue by Group AND Solo or SOLO ONLY. I'd go with Solo only probably most of the time.

And that is exactly my point. Not only you, but most of soloers would. This means no more pops for premades in a wasteland, thus banning premades in a more subtle way: instead of the hard way of removing the option for them to queue into regs, it would take away players to play with, because said players would almost exclusively be in the SOLO ONLY queue.

This is why I said you can't both have the cake and eat it, too. You can't possibly design a system that makes soloers that want to avoid premades happy while also have the premades happy. These are mutually excluded desires in a game that is a sole triple A MMORPG game based on most popular IP ever, yet it failes miserably to maintain population big enough to ensure these desires are not mutually excluded.

That would mean if you pick the third group and tthere aren’t enough players in either of the first two groups to make SOLO ONLY or GROUP ONLY matches, it would put you into a mixed match.

On the paper - yes; in reality - it won't. Your system has a design flaw that tends to ignore the high probability that there will be enough SOLO ONLY soloers and enough SOLO-GROUP soloers in queue most of the time to create SOLO ONLY games for them, while not enough premades to create GROUP ONLY games and not enough mixed players to create SOLO-GROUP games either.

The premades would cease to exist (and solo players queueing for SOLO-GROUP would be put to SOLO ONLY queue), the very same as they cease to exist in TR because of a phenomenon where in a game with a low population like SWTOR to ensure teams of similar skill level to play against each other exclusively; the dominating premade chases away all the other premades.

TL;DR Your system simply has a design flaw but that's not your fault, since it's virtually impossible to create a system that would do what you want it to do in a pretty much dead game.

I can only talk from my own point of view.

But if I was queuing in a system like I’ve suggested, it would depend on what class I was on, what time of day (aka, what’s popping, arena or objective) and wether I was grouped with someone else in a 2-3 man (I rarely if ever grouped in 4 man anymore) and the last variable would be how I’m feeling.

Am I impatient for game?

Is it popping fast or slow?

How are the players skills in the games?

Are they scoreboard fluffing and ignoring objectives or are they trying to win?

There are lots of variables to how I would queue on any given day. I’m assuming other people would be similar and have reasons to queue a certain way on some days and another the the next.

If I was grouped with just my wife we would be in the random queue (SOLO-GROUP). If I was playing solo it would depend on if there was only one premade in the queue. If there was only one, I would probably be put against them every match. So if the pops weren’t too slow and I wasn’t short on time or feeling impatient, I would queue solo. If there were many premade groups, then I would queue (SOLO-GROUP) to get faster pops, I would only queue GROUP-ONLY if I was in a 4 man premade to go against other premades.

The idea isn’t perfect. I 100% know that. And there is a possibility that the law of averages or community choice might make it a little harder under some circumstances to get pops faster if you only queue GROUP or only queue SOLO, which is why I think more people would queue RANDOM,

I think I mentioned that Bioware should add incentives for people to queue RANDOM the most. That way you can strike more of a balance across the population. The only times I think this might fail is during low population times when pops are already slow. Maybe the system could alert players to average pop times based on that like other games do.

And that is exactly my point. Not only you, but most of soloers would. This means no more pops for premades in a wasteland, thus banning premades in a more subtle way: instead of the hard way of removing the option for them to queue into regs, it would take away players to play with, because said players would almost exclusively be in the SOLO ONLY queue.

For what it is worth, I do not believe A) they will ever ban premade teams, and B) that any sort of compromise will ever be introduced. This is a social game. The social aspect is what keeps games such as these alive, and everyone knows it.

However, the same could also be argued about the numbers farmers. If they continue, they will have no one left to farm. There must be something done to encourage actually attempting to WIN the warzone.

Do you know I was in a "conversation" not long ago wherein someone was deriding and condemning objective players? The contempt was palpable. These are the players that are the problem and they're a significant portion of the PvP playerbase. They're just as much a problem as splitting the queue would be.

I know you agree with me on this, you have commented as much. I also know I am preaching to the choir, as the expression goes. The reason I believe that we keep posting on this topic (or at least the reason that *I* do) is we want the developers to know it's problem, and we want a solution. The games are becoming less and less fun. Wins feel more and more like pyrrhic victories, not true wins, and queuing feels more like a chore than a fun activity in a game that we love. When a thread like this dies I believe the developers feel that (if they care at all) the situation "went away" which is exactly what I think they're hoping...that it will just go away.

There must be something done to encourage actually attempting to WIN the warzone.

Ostensibly, I would assume this is why they implemented the "only wins count" rule as opposed to something like what trixxie and I suggested with upping the ratio of wins.

Not saying I agree with that decision, but they pretty much went full on win or don't get anything. What exactly do you want them to do to "encourage winning" assuming the win only condition while simultaneously locking you out for leaving matches has failed to achieve the desired outcome?

I remember a time when my objective focused premade was ragged on for winning too much. Our replacements are apparently number farmers who require voice chat to lose. Miss us yet?

Ostensibly, I would assume this is why they implemented the "only wins count" rule as opposed to something like what trixxie and I suggested with upping the ratio of wins.

 

Not saying I agree with that decision, but they pretty much went full on win or don't get anything. What exactly do you want them to do to "encourage winning" assuming the win only condition while simultaneously locking you out for leaving matches has failed to achieve the desired outcome?

 

I remember a time when my objective focused premade was ragged on for winning too much. Our replacements are apparently number farmers who require voice chat to lose.

Please do not take my comment as snark. I am aware of why the policy was introduced. Their hamfisted, perfunctory solution was ill conceived and poorly executed, though. They brought a hammer for cutting wood.

It is not my job to provide solutions. We pay developers for that. Many have been suggested and roundly scorned and dismissed. However, pride is at the core of this issue. They pride themselves on numbers...why not introduce a ranking system within regs (no rewards) for winning warzones with a new title (okay, one reward) each expansion, or ranked season, or fiscal quarter, or large patch.

Another way to go is: same as above, but for winning as quickly as possible. I am spitballing, but this was in 5 minutes. There must be a developer or a genius out there (no sarcasm) that can forward a concept that would be fun for most and well received by the players.

Miss us yet?

I am ambivalent.

You fix you being upset by making friends and forming your own pre-made.... it's pretty cut and dry.. solo queuers only get upset because they don't want to take the time or put in the effort of finding people to game with in a multiplayer online game.

The point went so far over your head, it’s achieved geosynchronous orbit. The issue is about the problems people have with matchmaker being exacerbated by players of a certain skill level grouping up and getting matched against newer or less skilled players consistently. Your variation on the old “git gud” catagory of advice also doesn’t take into account that some people just aren’t social creatures, and don’t want to join groups. Some of us just want our weeklies and CQ points.

As far as splitting the queues goes, it will never work long term in any capacity. If the premades see fewer pops, they can just split up and queue solo, then team up during the match when it pops. If any members of their team end up on opposite sides of the field, you run the very real risk of one part of the team throwing and sabotaging their side for their premade teammates. Remember, most of these people are using voice chat. It’s not hard to organize a back and forth system in case these people have to solo queue.

The point went so far over your head, it’s achieved geosynchronous orbit. The issue is about the problems people have with matchmaker being exacerbated by players of a certain skill level grouping up and getting matched against newer or less skilled players consistently. Your variation on the old “git gud” catagory of advice also doesn’t take into account that some people just aren’t social creatures, and don’t want to join groups. Some of us just want our weeklies and CQ points.

 

As far as splitting the queues goes, it will never work long term in any capacity. If the premades see fewer pops, they can just split up and queue solo, then team up during the match when it pops. If any members of their team end up on opposite sides of the field, you run the very real risk of one part of the team throwing and sabotaging their side for their premade teammates. Remember, most of these people are using voice chat. It’s not hard to organize a back and forth system in case these people have to solo queue.

My experience with pvp guilds and premades in chat is they like having friends on the other team in voice with them so they can chat.

We used to do that in the 6 pvp guilds I’ve been in over the 9 years. We’d all be in chat and in different teams talking to each other. It was actually more fun when we were on opposite teams.

This whole idea of people throwing regs matches absolutely blows my mind. It would never have happened 18 months ago because there would be no reason.

My experience with pvp guilds and premades in chat is they like having friends on the other team in voice with them so they can chat.

We used to do that in the 6 pvp guilds I’ve been in over the 9 years. We’d all be in chat and in different teams talking to each other. It was actually more fun when we were on opposite teams.

This whole idea of people throwing regs matches absolutely blows my mind. It would never have happened 18 months ago because there would be no reason.

My experience with having guildies on opposing sides of the same match was an absolute nightmare. It got to where I had to put the guildies on the opposing team in their own discord channel (i.e. PvP 1 and PvP 2) to prevent petty drama. I'd say the experience is as unique as the guild itself which is to say, there is not any one (or 5) experiences we can qualify as typical

My experience with having guildies on opposing sides of the same match was an absolute nightmare. It got to where I had to put the guildies on the opposing team in their own discord channel (i.e. PvP 1 and PvP 2) to prevent petty drama. I'd say the experience is as unique as the guild itself which is to say, there is not any one (or 5) experiences we can qualify as typical

That’s true I guess. Maybe I was lucky with the guys I use to guild with. We all had similar temperaments and enjoyed the banter between us. We use to spend our time dueling each other on our fleet ships while we waited. People who caused drama were quickly shown to the Airlock.