This is an honest question, not just hyperbolic post-nerf wailing. What is the point, functionally, of a discipline when another discipline outperforms it in virtually every way?

Concentration was already competing with Watchman for the top Sentinel parse (and all parses, for that matter) before the nerf. It has superior burst, an easier, less RNG dependent rotation, built-in CC immunity, more opportunities to employ our AoE mez without breaking it with DoTs, benefits more from utilities (such as Jedi Promulgator, Force Fade/Hidden Advance), comparable AoE, and better tools for maximum enemy uptime. Not only does it have all-'round superior utility, Conc now has better burst and sustained DPS. It seems to me that the only thing Watchman offers that Conc doesn't is a few meager raidwide heals, and now even Combat is competing with Watchman's sustained DPS. So, why, in any game mode, should anyone play Watchman anymore?

Furthermore, it's exactly as I said in other threads. The only benefits a DoT Sentinel traditionally offered over other DoT classes were superior single target DPS, Transcendence (which only breaks roots, no actual immunity even for the user), a slightly more powerful raid buff (with a 3.33% uptime), and slightly better AoE damage reduction. No pushes nor pulls, no self-heal DCD, and horrendously bad uptime for our big DCDs in PvE. Watchman Sentinels were *designed* to out-DPS just about everything they encounter, and the only period in the game when they didn't (3.X), they were absolutely terrible. If Watchman isn't going to be allowed to be top sustained DPS (even among its own discipline trees), its needs better utilities. And don't you dare take this as an endorsement to nerf Conc, because it finally got the buff it rightly needed. Either reverse Watchman's nerf, or give us something new to let it somehow remain relevant.

Again, if a Dev happens upon this, I have a completely honest question. Do you even play your own game? Seriously. As players have outlined in other class threads, this latest round of nerfs were atrocious, with few exceptions. I implore you to reevaluate your philosophy surrounding class changes, and if you refuse to do so, at least do us the courtesy of rolling out utility changes sooner than later. I honestly want to believe that you are trying to do right by the player base with your Roadmap, but by God you are making it difficult.

Which is completely ridiculous, since they *just* buffed it. And even if that (probably) happens, that doesn't change the fact that Watchman is simply outclassed by just about every DoT discipline in the game now, aside from Plasmatech. It was already sub-par in PvP prior to the nerf, and Combat is still considered the optimal discipline for the majority of ops fights. This completely invalidates using it for any reason.

At least Vigilance has some burst and fast DCD timers. Ruffian straight-up out-DPSes everything (again), and Serenity has a placeable AoE and a true reflect, attached to strong DCDs with significantly faster cooldown times. Not to mention that most of them have AoEs (most of them with DoTspread) as part of their core single target rotations. This is utter nonsense, there was no reason whatsoever for this nerf.

Watchman is currently - post nerf - parsing higher then any other Dot-Melee-class except of Lethality. Due to the fact, that Watchman has superior survivability and raid utility then any other Dot-Melee-class, the current state of Watchmen is more then okay.

The other sentinel-specs are quite currently quite overperforming. As far as I know, the devs are about to rework the current state of them. Espacially compared to Focus and Infiltration, I am very sure, Combat will receive a nerf with the next round of class changes. The same can be expected for Advaned Prototype/Tactics.

With Combat nerfed, all melee-burst specs, such as Infiltration, Focus and Concealment will be on an equal level.

The current balance problems are because of some are still overperforming compared to other classes of the same spec and the same category. Melee-Dot-Specs and Ranged-Burst-Specs were succesfully brought in line in terms of DPS. They have to rework survivability and raid utility - in terms of PvE-Content, it is a huge difference, if classes/specs have access to AoE-Damage-Reduction or not. In addition, Ranged-Dot-Specs are currenlty too diverse considering their DPS-output. In addition, they have the problem, that it is mostly better/easier to play the corresponding burst-spec. In my opinion, they have to buff Ranged-Dot-Specs slightly to give them an advantage compared to Ranged-Burst-Specs.

Back to Watchman/Long story short: The spec is balanced compared to other specs of the Melee-Dot-Category. The other sentinel-specs are still overperforming in terms of DPS. I am just talking about PvE, I have no idea about balance in PvP.

With respect to PvE, I agree with most of your points. However, I disagree with your claims over survivability. Sentinels have solid mitigation on their DCDs, but lack up-time. GBtF has over twice the CD length as that of similar abilities, and Saber Ward (a mediocre DCD at best) has a 3 minute CD. Pacify doesn't do much in ops, and it's single target anyway. Rebuke only offsets the lack of heavy armor for as long as you can take damage, and none of the above can be used simultaneously without overlapping (wasting) your mitigation. Our only built-in CC immunity sacrifices DPS, and even our Legendary utility provides us a whopping total of 3.33% CC-free up-time. None of our abilities provide root immunity, either.

The lack of immunities can be reconciled in PvE, but not PvP. Sentinels are one of the most vulnerable classes in the game because of this, and our weak up-time on our hard DCDs. Not to mention that all of our DCDs are reaction-based, rather than control-based, which further ups the difficulty. I'll illustrate what I mean. Guardians have a push, AoE mez, and can pop 3 of their DCDs without any overlapping mitigation. Shadows and Scoundrels can reset a fight in their favor with stealth + H2F. All three of the heal-capable classes can extend their TTKs through heals, kiting, and knockbacks. Slingers have unbelievably strong DCDs and CC immunity for unbelievably long up-times (many of which can also overlap). Most classes also enjoy true reflects now, too.

Sentinels cannot employ their DCDs in the same cavalier manner that most classes can, because you waste your total potential mitigation, and you have far less total up-time with your hard DCDs. My point is that Sentinels lack both the abilities to control the flow of a fight (beyond an AoE mez), and resist being controlled. Not only are there more ways to make defensive mistakes on a Sentinel, but the price of that mistake is far higher in the long run due to atrociously weak up-times.

This is why Sentinels must have either higher DPS, or better DCDs than other classes, and both advantages have been stripped from Watchman. I will concede that if all classes are eventually scaled in the way the devs envision, my complaints will be satisfied for PvE only. This does not resolve the fact that we hit like wet noodles in PvP, and it's nearly impossible to kill anything with a healer (or Sniper) present. Even when Conc was one of the worst disciplines in the game, there was a compelling argument that it was still better than Watchman because of its burst, immunities, and superior kiting tools. That remains unresolved, and there are plenty of viable ways to go about a patch. Returning Riposte to Sentinels and improving Saber Ward's up-time would go a long way, for example. Either way, I am not going to stop raising this issue until the devs are properly sick of me and finally fix the damn problem.

With respect to PvE, I agree with most of your points. However, I disagree over Sentinel survivability in both PvE and PvP. Sentinels have solid mitigation on their DCDs, but lack up-time. GBtF has over twice the CD length as that of similar abilities, and Saber Ward (a mediocre DCD at best) has a 3 minute CD. Pacify doesn't have much of a place in ops, and it's only single target anyway. Rebuke only offsets the lack of heavy armor for as long as you can take damage, and none of them can be used simultaneously without overlapping (wasting) your mitigation. Our only built-in CC immunity sacrifices DPS, and even our Legendary utility provides us a whopping total of 3.33% up-time. None of our abilities (save Camo) provide root immunity, either..

Compared to other Melee-Dot-Classes, sentinels have the best DCD's.

We have:

1. Guarded by the Force & Blade Blizz - dcd's that give us immunity in 99% of all situations (guarded + lightning field@dread guards = bad idea). Guardians have saber reflect and Blade Blizz, that are at best on the same level, Vanguards have nothing similar, Lethality Operatives have nothing. Shadows have Resilence (immunity to FT) and Force Speed (60% DA)

2. Rebuke: That gives us a damage reduction of 50% with around 50% uptime. No other class has a similar dcd.

3. Saber Ward: Combined with Transcendence you are nearly immune to MR-Damage and reduces FT-Damage. Guardians have the same ability. Vanguards have nothing. Operatives have a 3 second-DCD with 40-60 seconds CD that makes them immune to MR-Damage. Shadows have deflection, that lacks the FT-component of saber ward.

4. Force Camouflage: It reduces all damage income by 50% and makes you immune versus cc and knockback. Vanguards have Hold-the-line, that makes them immune versus knockbacks but not versus cc, shadow has resilence (and deflection-utility) that makes immune against most of cc's and some knockbacks, guardians have immunitys against stuns and knockbacks by using force leap. Operatives have nothing.

5. AoE-Damage reduction: Reduces all AoE-Damage by 30%. Guadians, Powertechs and Shadows (Dot-classes) have nothing. Operatives have.

So, all in all: Sentinels have AoE-Damage-Reduction and 4 other situational DCD's. Shadows don't have AoE-Damage-reduction, but 4 other situational DCD's, Guardians don't have AoE-Dmg-Reduction and 3 situational DCD's, Operatives have AoE-Damage-Reduction but just 3 situational dcd's, vanguards don't have AoE-Dmg-Reduction and just 2 situational dcd's.

I don't know, if sentinels need superior dcd's. However, they indeed have them. Besides of gunslingers and commandos, sentinels are the dps-classes with the best survivability currently ingame.

Just an example for PvE-Content, where DPS need their DCD's: Brontes NiM final Burn. We currently play this fight with necessarily 2 or more classes with good survivability. That are commandos, grunslingers and sentinels. With good usage and timing they won't receive much damage due to Fire&Forget. With a higher amount of stacks, you get nearly one-shotted when not using a proper dcd. Operatives are very week and just can def one high-stack-hit by using cc-break and escape. Plasmatech-Vanguards are very week and can't dodge those hits. Guardians can sometimes dodge those hits with good timing of force leap, saber reflect, saber ward and cc-break. Shadows are also very difficult to play there.

i think BW did not taken into consideration, high alacrity builds and how it could affect specific classes: concentration/fury being one of them, so the result is a higher parsing class, but i am yet to see the practical results on operation bosses.

in any case, pure raw numbers the OP is correct - there is no reason to play watchmen/anni, due to the fact that the other 2 specs seem to be parsing higher then intended.

:offtopic:

it must be me, but i am using high alacrity build on my concealment and having good results, but on lethality not so much. can it be that only high alacrity builds afect only burst classes optimally?

i think BW did not taken into consideration, high alacrity builds and how it could affect specific classes: concentration/fury being one of them, so the result is a higher parsing class, but i am yet to see the practical results on operation bosses.

 

in any case, pure raw numbers the OP is correct - there is no reason to play watchmen/anni, due to the fact that the other 2 specs seem to be parsing higher then intended.

 

:offtopic:

it must be me, but i am using high alacrity build on my concealment and having good results, but on lethality not so much. can it be that only high alacrity builds afect only burst classes optimally?

Yes melee burst classes with lots of instant attacks specifically. It does not really help marksman/lightning for instance cause snipe/ lightning burst still get's calculated correctly and in general any ability with a channel cast bar.

Also on heavy/pure dot specs it is meh - yeah the dots tic faster and you can reapply them faster but on average they do less crit/mastery/power damage.

Compared to other Melee-Dot-Classes, sentinels have the best DCD's.

We have:

1. Guarded by the Force & Blade Blizz - dcd's that give us immunity in 99% of all situations (guarded + lightning field@dread guards = bad idea). Guardians have saber reflect and Blade Blizz, that are at best on the same level, Vanguards have nothing similar, Lethality Operatives have nothing. Shadows have Resilence (immunity to FT) and Force Speed (60% DA)

Saber Reflect has a 1M CD.

VGs get the shaft, I admit.

Ops have Dodge with a base 1M CD, which is improved upon taking damage, and activates on stealth (per utility).

Resilience is on a 1M CD, and you get it again with each stealth-out (per utility).

2. Rebuke: That gives us a damage reduction of 50% with around 50% uptime. No other class has a similar dcd.

What? Rebuke is 20% mitigation, and 50% is the maximum up-time. You must constantly take damage in order to receive the full effect, which is rare in operations.

Smugglers have a shield probe (30 seconds or better!!), Troopers have Reactive Shield, Sages have Force Armor, Guardians have FD/Enure.

3. Saber Ward: Combined with Transcendence you are nearly immune to MR-Damage and reduces FT-Damage. Guardians have the same ability. Vanguards have nothing. Operatives have a 3 second-DCD with 40-60 seconds CD that makes them immune to MR-Damage. Shadows have deflection, that lacks the FT-component of saber ward.

Incorrect, Trans and SW overlap their hit/miss chances (as every DCD does), so your total MR avoidance is slightly over 60% (Base def. included). I double-dog dare you to try and cheese Underlurker's Rage Storm with that. And given that the majority of boss/class damage is FT, you end up mitigating slightly more than Reactive Shield does once every three minutes.

Shadows also benefit from a reflect on deflection, and a full minute faster up-time (meaning significantly better CC immunity).

4. Force Camouflage: It reduces all damage income by 50% and makes you immune versus cc and knockback. Vanguards have Hold-the-line, that makes them immune versus knockbacks but not versus cc, shadow has resilence (and deflection-utility) that makes immune against most of cc's and some knockbacks, guardians have immunitys against stuns and knockbacks by using force leap. Operatives have nothing.

Again, this is a 100% DPS sacrifice when available. A zero-sum gain, at best. It also does not actually remove anything without sacrificing one of your two best utilities to do so.

5. AoE-Damage reduction: Reduces all AoE-Damage by 30%. Guadians, Powertechs and Shadows (Dot-classes) have nothing. Operatives have.

I admit that this is one area that Sentinels truly have an upper hand over most classes. Their AoE/DoT reduction with Rebuke up is one of the best in the game. Fair point.

So, all in all: Sentinels have AoE-Damage-Reduction and 4 other situational DCD's. Shadows don't have AoE-Damage-reduction, but 4 other situational DCD's, Guardians don't have AoE-Dmg-Reduction and 3 situational DCD's, Operatives have AoE-Damage-Reduction but just 3 situational dcd's, vanguards don't have AoE-Dmg-Reduction and just 2 situational dcd's.

 

I don't know, if sentinels need superior dcd's. However, they indeed have them. Besides of gunslingers and commandos, sentinels are the dps-classes with the best survivability currently ingame.

Again, Sentinels' DCDs are entirely situational, and none of them can be overlapped without wasting mitigation, an issue unique to Sentinels. Our total mitigation up-time suffers tremendously in prolonged fights, and we sorely lack CC-immunity. I cannot stress that second part enough, and how important it is in PvP. And unlike Focused Defense, Shield Probe, Reactive Shield, Force Armor, self-heals, and many others, you will not get Saber Ward twice per round in a 4v4 match, and you'll be an extremely lucky Sentinel to see GBtF twice.

You did not account for passive mitigation, or self-heals. Sentinels require such strong DCDs to offset the inherent armor weakness, and lack of a heal CD. Same way Consulars have tons of passives to reconcile their light armor. Rebuke exists to partly close that gap, but as you said, it has a maximum of 50% up-time, and we only have weak HoTs (which hover around ~40-60% EHPS).

You also did not account for control abilities, which is the crux of my argument for PvP. I can agree that the Sentinels don't suffer nearly as badly in PvE for the aforementioned reasons, but beyond Awe, we lack the ability to control our opponents. And again, the only source of CC immunity we have while attacking is Zealous Ward, which has a 3.33% total up-time. I'd love for you to compare that to the other classes. You're even welcome to include Force Camo, if you'd like.

Look, I agree that Sentinels have a large volume of DCDs, and each's mitigation is very good. But as I have demonstrated, we lack a hard heal CD, up-times are severely limited, and some of them exist solely to offset inherent weaknesses other classes do not suffer from. And while we boast some of the best AoE/DoT defenses in the game, we don't take FT damage well at all. We and VGs are by far the most healer-dependent classes in the game. I would encourage you to PvP more frequently, so you can understand just how important this and control abilities really are, and why I continue to make such a fuss about it. Also, I challenge you to duel any semi-skilled Slinger/Mando/Guardian/Shadow/Scoundrel as Watchman, and tell me how it goes. Bonus points: 2v2 (as Watchman) any class with a healer present. Try not to pull your hair out.

On one last note, I stand by my initial criticisms of the class changes. I'm willing to drop PvE DPS if and only if the devs scale every class correctly, and they either provide us more AoE damage, or make more of it rotational like the other DoTspecs. My ideal solution to efficiently tweak the defensive and PvP issues would be a baseline Saber Ward CD reduction, and more situational DPS that affects PvP more than it does PvE. I made a thread about the second issue already. As soon as that is satisfied, I will be a happy camper, and will return to the shadowy abyss from whence I came.

This is an honest question, not just hyperbolic post-nerf wailing. What is the point, functionally, of a discipline when another discipline outperforms it in virtually every way?

 

Concentration was already competing with Watchman for the top Sentinel parse (and all parses, for that matter) before the nerf. It has superior burst, an easier, less RNG dependent rotation, built-in CC immunity, more opportunities to employ our AoE mez without breaking it with DoTs, benefits more from utilities (such as Jedi Promulgator, Force Fade/Hidden Advance), comparable AoE, and better tools for maximum enemy uptime. Not only does it have all-'round superior utility, Conc now has better burst and sustained DPS. It seems to me that the only thing Watchman offers that Conc doesn't is a few meager raidwide heals, and now even Combat is competing with Watchman's sustained DPS. So, why, in any game mode, should anyone play Watchman anymore?

 

Furthermore, it's exactly as I said in other threads. The only benefits a DoT Sentinel traditionally offered over other DoT classes were superior DPS, Transcendence (which only breaks roots, no actual immunity even for the user), a slightly more powerful raid buff (with a 3.33% uptime), and slightly better AoE damage reduction. No pushes nor pulls, no self-heal DCD, and horrendously bad uptime for our big DCDs in PvE. Watchman Sentinels were *designed* to out-DPS just about everything they encounter, and the only period in the game when they didn't (3.X), they were absolutely terrible. If Watchman isn't going to be allowed to be top sustained DPS (even among its own discipline trees), its needs better utilities. And don't you dare take this as an endorsement to nerf Conc, because it finally got the buff it rightly needed. Either reverse Watchman's nerf, or give us something new to let it remain remotely relevant.

 

Again, if a Dev happens upon this, I have a completely honest question. Do you even play your own game? Seriously. As players have outlined in other class threads, this latest round of nerfs were atrocious, with few exceptions. I implore you to reevaluate your philosophy surrounding class changes, and if you refuse to do so, at least do us the courtesy of rolling out utility changes sooner than later. I honestly want to believe that you are trying to do right by the player base with your Roadmap, but by God you are making it difficult.

I don’t agree with this whatsoever (Annihilation) can be a total pain in the arse.

Although (Fury) in all due respect has been underperforming for so long it deserves some love especially when it comes to being a PVP spec it lacked behind so much it was abandoned and most actually despised me playing as one which I have since god knows how long.

I shall be honest I have always looked at Annihilation and Carnage as PVE specs which is why I automatically consider them weaker specs which is why I believe they should be.

Until I see actual statistics on Annihilation I will still assume it is superior in DPS because it was the highest parsing spec before the nerf.

The reason I state you can’t compare both in a PVE or PVP standpoint is because Annihilation in PVE has better mobility and is able to move around more while leaving damage ticking unlike Fury.

Fury you always need to stay on the target because of resources and if you can’t you lose momentum which accounts for loss in DPS through resources and downtime.

Same goes for PVP Annihilation has mobility because of DOTs but Fury doesn’t lose its mobility because of immunity to CCs.

So while Fury is immune and Annihilation is stunned if you’re a hardcore player and you have DOTs ticking while stunned you’re still outputting damage.

(Personal opinion)

I segregate all three specs.

Fury as a PVP spec with a little flexibility in PVE.

Annihilation as a PVE spec with a little flexibility in PVP.

Carnage as a PVE spec which I use more or less for solo content.

Until I see actual statistics on Annihilation I will still assume it is superior in DPS because it was the highest parsing .

Just on the parsing side before the nerf fury had the 2nd top dps on parsley barely 30 dps behind annihilation so I think you can safely assume that is now the top parsing spec as everything else was getting nerfs . Opinions seem to vary but from the little parsing I do I reckon anni is about 600 - 700 dps down on where it was some think its nearer 400 but suppose depends on how lucky / unlucky you got on relative parses

Now the high alacrity build peeps are using to get that on fury I am not convinced will translate as well to ops but that has always been the case with parsing.

But anyway for ops if you want to take the best spec it will be either carnage or fury so the op has a point what is the point of watchman now

If they fix the issue with alacrity, then the numbers might be better balanced. The whole point behind Concentration/Fury parsing really high is because it adapts very well to low crit, which happens when you have high alacrity.

The high alacrity build some are referring to is a consequence of badly rounding up the GCD. If you don't know about the issue read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=933260&page=2. From post 18 there is good stuff, with proof in post 28.

Them fixing up alacrity will allow all specs to scale correctly, which makes it easier for them to balance stuff out. We need this fixed, help get dev attention on this.

Also hi Trog.

Just on the parsing side before the nerf fury had the 2nd top dps on parsley barely 30 dps behind annihilation so I think you can safely assume that is now the top parsing spec as everything else was getting nerfs . Opinions seem to vary but from the little parsing I do I reckon anni is about 600 - 700 dps down on where it was some think its nearer 400 but suppose depends on how lucky / unlucky you got on relative parses

 

Now the high alacrity build peeps are using to get that on fury I am not convinced will translate as well to ops but that has always been the case with parsing.

 

But anyway for ops if you want to take the best spec it will be either carnage or fury so the op has a point what is the point of watchman now

I’d say it depends on the Ops you do. All are viable but I won’t say Fury is more viable than Annihilation because of certain mechanics.

If they fix the issue with alacrity, then the numbers might be better balanced. The whole point behind Concentration/Fury parsing really high is because it adapts very well to low crit, which happens when you have high alacrity.

 

The high alacrity build some are referring to is a consequence of badly rounding up the GCD. If you don't know about the issue read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=933260&page=2. From post 18 there is good stuff, with proof in post 28.

 

Them fixing up alacrity will allow all specs to scale correctly, which makes it easier for them to balance stuff out. We need this fixed, help get dev attention on this.

 

Also hi Trog.

You can’t fix something that isn’t broken.

If this was broken like you suggest it would have been at their attention.

We have 3 autocrit abilities with one actually hitting hard that is raging burst.

I’m not going to include the crit from set bonus gear because every spec has one.

People use this method for specs like Deception, Fury, Lightning, Arsenal. The latter two have lost a lot of their autocrits but I still run alacrity as it’s more fun and it’s the functionality.

But don’t try to take away the functionality of this away because this is a PVP spec.

Watchman is still more flexible with it's resource management and has better "group" utility then the other two specs. In terms of DPS all three specs are very close to each other and it is more of a preference and know-how with these specs rather than technical dps limitations. Sure a great carnage player can pull better numbers by design of certain fights but that was always the case. Fury is simply now an alternative option to carnage. Both have pros and cons - cons being tight timed burst window on carnage vs tight rage/centering generation requirements on fury.

Pretty much this.

It’s preference.

Fury is the PVP variant of Carnage.

You can’t fix something that isn’t broken.

If this was broken like you suggest it would have been at their attention.

We have 3 autocrit abilities with one actually hitting hard that is raging burst.

I’m not going to include the crit from set bonus gear because every spec has one.

 

People use this method for specs like Deception, Fury, Lightning, Arsenal. The latter two have lost a lot of their autocrits but I still run alacrity as it’s more fun and it’s the functionality.

 

But don’t try to take away the functionality of this away because this is a PVP spec.

I should know better than to argue with you but w/e. First things first, I am not trying to "take away" anything from anyone. The fact that alacrity is rounded up in a weird way hurts everyone (even fury), but I have to admit it hurts some more than others.

We were all surprised when Shyroman realized that it was acting like it is. Truth is no one ever really looked at it. If you have evidence other than "someone should have noticed by then" please provide it. Since this was discovered weeks ago, no one ever brought up anything to prove it wrong. Please check the actual parsely proof, and if you dont believe it test for yourself. Many of us have tried to prove it wrong but ended up finding it was true.

Well, its easy to say how Anhihilation is in bad position right now compared to the other two.

1 - Parses lower than the other 2 specs(even though should be higher and everyone acknowledges that).

2 - Has terrible target switching(since you need to do pretty good dot spec, specially in PvP where majority of people is basically running ranged specs when doing serious games, so good luck spreading sh*t and in PvE its situational), due to the rotation reset.

3 - **** heals (even together with the utility from Legendary of +1% per attack) as you can say they are basically none, honestly. Plus, they are pretty much only effective when spreading the dots.

4 - Carnage has the 'net' effect few seconds, for 1,5s, which is pretty nice to screw some healers and dps that try to escape + hue damage when everything clips into Ferocity and has increased defense rating(even if unnoticeable). Fury has a really strong stun immunity and decent damage reduction passives, along with current auto crits every 6-9s if they wanted. Anhihilation has nothing of that category(Used to have that 0m - 30m force charge and for some retarded reason was removed yet it was its most powerful tool it had, along with shortened dots that could give good time on target, which I honestly think was way better compared to now).

It needs to be said that it lost more than it gained, specially last update. So a big compensation, compared to others, is needed.

I should know better than to argue with you but w/e. First things first, I am not trying to "take away" anything from anyone. The fact that alacrity is rounded up in a weird way hurts everyone (even fury), but I have to admit it hurts some more than others.

We were all surprised when Shyroman realized that it was acting like it is. Truth is no one ever really looked at it. If you have evidence other than "someone should have noticed by then" please provide it. Since this was discovered weeks ago, no one ever brought up anything to prove it wrong. Please check the actual parsely proof, and if you dont believe it test for yourself. Many of us have tried to prove it wrong but ended up finding it was true.

Do you hear your own contradiction?

Because everyone knows it is more viable to run alacrity on autocrit specs it’s not a thing that has only been ‘Discovered’.

How new are you to the game?

Alacrity has always been a viable choice. Similar to how crit is for healers.

You honestly want something done because “You’re” unhappy about something and instead of like the rest of us who just get on with it, you want something done about it.

The game is suppose to be about having fun but when you’re not having fun all hell breaks loose and you want to ruin the fun for everyone else.

Well, its easy to say how Anhihilation is in bad position right now compared to the other two.

 

1 - Parses lower than the other 2 specs(even though should be higher and everyone acknowledges that).

2 - Has terrible target switching(since you need to do pretty good dot spec, specially in PvP where majority of people is basically running ranged specs when doing serious games, so good luck spreading sh*t and in PvE its situational), due to the rotation reset.

3 - **** heals (even together with the utility from Legendary of +1% per attack) as you can say they are basically none, honestly. Plus, they are pretty much only effective when spreading the dots.

4 - Carnage has the 'net' effect few seconds, for 1,5s, which is pretty nice to screw some healers and dps that try to escape + hue damage when everything clips into Ferocity and has increased defense rating(even if unnoticeable). Fury has a really strong stun immunity and decent damage reduction passives, along with current auto crits every 6-9s if they wanted. Anhihilation has nothing of that category(Used to have that 0m - 30m force charge and for some retarded reason was removed yet it was its most powerful tool it had, along with shortened dots that could give good time on target, which I honestly think was way better compared to now).

 

It needs to be said that it lost more than it gained, specially last update. So a big compensation, compared to others, is needed.

Yet you fail to recognise Carnage is a harder spec due to resources, CCs and downtime.

Annihilation is still pulling the highest numbers regardless until I see physical evidence it isn’t.

It suffers nothing of what the other two specs which is downtime, mobility and resources.

You can’t base numbers of a dummy.

PVP and PVE are situational.

PVP you can’t just use rotations like you can on a dummy so the spec won’t work 100% the same.

PVE you have mechanics which restricts certain aspects of gameplay.

Yet you fail to recognise Carnage is a harder spec due to resources, CCs and downtime.

Annihilation is still pulling the highest numbers regardless until I see physical evidence it isn’t.

It suffers nothing of what the other two specs which is downtime, mobility and resources.

You can’t base numbers of a dummy.

PVP and PVE are situational.

PVP you can’t just use rotations like you can on a dummy so the spec won’t work 100% the same.

PVE you have mechanics which restricts certain aspects of gameplay.

1 : I acknowledge that Carnage is harder(even though I never mentioned anything about being harder or easier afaik. Just talking numbers and utility) but in Anhihilation you can either have good dps or not, really. Dots, after all

Although you can't disagree that Fury is somewhat easier than the other two.

2 : "Pulling highest numbers." Not really. Anhihilation isn't pulling the highest numbers at all. Carnage, atm, is the spec pulling the best overall fom the 3. And Fury is coming up, as well. And no, not basing on dummy numbers.

3: Downtime, you mean about the dots that you can leave there for a bit before going back? I assume it is that. Well maybe, depends how long it takes for you to return to the fight.

And mobility? What you mean with that? Fury is the most versatile/mobile out of the 3 since it can close gap twice easily. Unless you mean the constant jumping and rooting(force charge + obliterate ability), which old Anhihilation had with just the Force Charge( pre-4.0 with the 0m-30m force charge that was changed back to the normal 10m-30m for some reason(heard that people dislike that same ability even though was pretty much what kept it as useful, specially for PvP, but I explained earlier) ).

4: PvP and PvE are different, yes, but as the DPS goes down, it loses its usefulness, really.

I am aware you can't use full rotations in PvP but you should be allowed to have utility in the game and when the majority of players are taking ranged, it becomes a bit of a bother for dot melee to become useful.

PvE wise, well, as I said before, Carnage is pulling better numbers than Anhihilation and Fury is coming up as well, while Anhihilation will be going down.

1 : I acknowledge that Carnage is harder(even though I never mentioned anything about being harder or easier afaik. Just talking numbers and utility) but in Anhihilation you can either have good dps or not, really. Dots, after all

Although you can't disagree that Fury is somewhat easier than the other two.

 

2 : "Pulling highest numbers." Not really. Anhihilation isn't pulling the highest numbers at all. Carnage, atm, is the spec pulling the best overall fom the 3. And Fury is coming up, as well. And no, not basing on dummy numbers.

 

3: Downtime, you mean about the dots that you can leave there for a bit before going back? I assume it is that. Well maybe, depends how long it takes for you to return to the fight.

And mobility? What you mean with that? Fury is the most versatile/mobile out of the 3 since it can close gap twice easily. Unless you mean the constant jumping and rooting(force charge + obliterate ability), which old Anhihilation had with just the Force Charge( pre-4.0 with the 0m-30m force charge that was changed back to the normal 10m-30m for some reason(heard that people dislike that same ability even though was pretty much what kept it as useful, specially for PvP, but I explained earlier) ).

 

4: PvP and PvE are differect, yes, but as the DPS goes down, it loses its usefulness, really.

I am aware you can't use full rotations in PvP but you should be allowed to have utility in the game and when the majority of players are taking ranged, it becomes a bit of a bother for dot melee to become useful.

PvE wise, well, as I said before, Carnage is pulling better numbers than Anhihilation and Fury is coming up as well, while Anhihilation will be going down.

I’m honestly not going to take this serious because of the numerous spelling mistakes.

1) DOTs do damage and no Fury is not the easiest.

Fury is more difficult than most will give recognition for, Annihilation on the other hand you literally read your passives and you’re set there isn’t much else.

Fury on the other hand which most won’t acknowledge has two rotations that you use back to back and it revolves around (Charge) Force Crush and (Obliterate) Berserk.

What most will say it is messy similar to that of Rage.

*(Ask yourself why is that?)*

2) Where are you getting this information that Annihilation isn’t pulling numbers? On average it is pulling the highest numbers.

The reason most state that Carnage or Fury pulls higher numbers is because of the Damage in their uptime but fails to recognise the numbers both pull in their downtime.

3) DOTs you can leave while being mobile which is still damage ticking.

Example:- *Boss fight mechanic is AOE ability that kills you instantly and the attack lasts 5.0.*

If you’re a player who knows how to work your spec to perform you can leave DOTs on the boss while moving out of his AOE range.

Where as Carnage or Fury once you’re out of range you stop outputting damage.

4) I have answered this whole point either on a previous post or in one of the points above but let me elaborate.

I have stated prior PVP and PVE is different but both are the same in terms of rotations you’re not guaranteed to pull the numbers you believe or see.

I have already said prior Fury is a PVP spec which you can use a little in PVE but if you was to use this spec in my raid I’d laugh at you and kick you from the group.

Annihilation will outperform all the specs in 90% of PVE content because of the utilities it offers and numbers it pulls on average let alone the resource management, mobility and downtime are nonexistent.

Carnage on the other hand can pull some great numbers in (its uptime) but on average isn’t outperforming.

A lot of the utilities (except the shared abilities) doesn’t help the group compared to Annihilation which has some of the best group utilities.

Carnage also has problems with resource management, mobility and downtime which outweighs the numbers it can pull in it’s uptime.

Reason I gave my personal opinion in prior post of how I segregate each spec.

1) Fury is for PVP. Can be used in certain PVE content like FPs and Uprisings.

2) Annihilation is for PVE. Can be used in unranked PVP.

3) Carnage is for PVE. Can be used in unranked PVP. Personally I’d really only use this spec for solo content like Story, Solo heroics/dailies and some PVE group content but I’d re-spec to Annihilation for group content.

Fury is not the easiest.

Fury is more difficult than most will give recognition for

Fury might just have the easiest rotation in the game. Is it harder in ops? Yeah but so is every spec and fury doesn't have a higher curve when it gets to ops than any other spec. The rotation is easier than even marksman or deception. The only thing that can be difficult in ops is fury management with downtime but on almost every fight there is enough random damage that goes out that not having enough fury will almost never be an issue.

The reason most state that Carnage or Fury pulls higher numbers is because of the Damage in their uptime but fails to recognise the numbers both pull in their downtime.

 

3) DOTs you can leave while being mobile which is still damage ticking.

This is a common misconception that people believe. Yes there are still dots ticking so anni is doing damage during its downtime but carnage and fury has already done that damage because their damage is upfront not dots. For each gcd that the anni mara uses for dots that will persist during that downtime, a carnage marauder will be doing (on average) the same damage amount of damage per gcd.

Burst specs are usually better than dot specs on fights with downtime because during that downtime, the burst spec will have their big burst abilities come back off cd and ready for when they can attack the boss again while the dot spec does not have that happen. Carnage marauder is probably the best example of this, they use their ferocity window right before downtime and then when they can attack the boss again, they don't have to go through their low point in their rotation and can go right back into another ferocity window because it came off cd, pushing its dps above the dot specs.

Fury might just have the easiest rotation in the game. Is it harder in ops? Yeah but so is every spec and fury doesn't have a higher curve when it gets to ops than any other spec. The rotation is easier than even marksman or deception. The only thing that can be difficult in ops is fury management with downtime but on almost every fight there is enough random damage that goes out that not having enough fury will almost never be an issue.

 

 

 

This is a common misconception that people believe. Yes there are still dots ticking so anni is doing damage during its downtime but carnage and fury has already done that damage because their damage is upfront not dots. For each gcd that the anni mara uses for dots that will persist during that downtime, a carnage marauder will be doing (on average) the same damage amount of damage per gcd.

 

Burst specs are usually better than dot specs on fights with downtime because during that downtime, the burst spec will have their big burst abilities come back off cd and ready for when they can attack the boss again while the dot spec does not have that happen. Carnage marauder is probably the best example of this, they use their ferocity window right before downtime and then when they can attack the boss again, they don't have to go through their low point in their rotation and can go right back into another ferocity window because it came off cd, pushing its dps above the dot specs.

Ok where to start.

1) You brought in other specs to divagate the difficulty when I didn’t compare nor say it was the hardest in game.

But still most will say it is messy yet you can’t answer me why that is? And I’d honestly say Rage is far easier yet people still claim that spec is messy and how Vengeance is smooth and outputs better.

2) Misconception?

No the common misconception is that people believe Annihilation suffers the most compared to the other two, that it is the hardest spec ever, hardest rotation ever, has the worse DPS and utilities, has terrible resource management, mobility and downtime.

Annihilation is sustainable damage which has an average.

The other two are burst which has a unreadable average because the average isn’t guaranteed meaning you’re working with more than averages which is where you start going into the area of mode and range to find the average.