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The problem with a lot of classes in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The problem with a lot of classes in PVP

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
06.08.2019 , 07:23 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
Force speed doesnt make you immune to stuns though, without stun dr classes like sorc, pt and sins lack the dcds and movement evasion against stronger classes. Which leads to inevitable death. I understand this is a team game but in reality, a lot of the situations we find ourselves in are not always circulated around pvp players that are supporting one another so it is up to the devs to take this oppurtunity to evaluate what certain classes are lacking and combat it. From my perspective the ability to endure/ avoid stuns is the main differentiator between the weak and strong classes when compared on a solo level.
Especially classes like merc, sniper and mara. Mercs have enough dcds to the point that their suvivability alone is able to combat a stun lock, also they have reflect if they are taking too much dmg. Maras have a lot of stun immunity and a 75% dmg reduction, again another combat to being stun locked. A good sniper always usuallyt has entrench up which is stun immunity that allows them to use their dcds while an enemy is attacking them along with other utilites that allows them to survive at a much higher rate than i.e pts. DPS sins, sorces and pts (the only classes I am really talking about here) do not have anything to combat being hardstuned. This specifically is what makes PTs so bad unless they are qued with tanks and heals. Atleast sorcers have some type of movement/escape ability and assassins can cloak but it is not enough to match the stronger classes in the game. Once they use breaker and are hard stunned they are facing inevitable death which I am suggesting we should try to fix by accumulating creative and unique ideas that can combat stun locks for the weaker classes.
No, but force speed has a stun breaker in it if you choose the right ability (as long as you donít get netted)

Also, if you donít have every class with speed ability, you donít need so many mez (soft stun abilities) or slow affects.

When every class has speed, it becomes speed wars. When there are too many stuns, it becomes stun wars.
It seems every meta it has swung back and forth between the two. One meta would be stuns, the next would be speed. So to try and balance it out, they would add more of them the next meta instead of nerfing them, they buffed it added more.

Now itís at the point that they canít add anymore or it becomes too ridiculous, so they have started to add more immunities. This pattern will probably continue because they canít go much further with stuns or speed. Which I think is a mistake because itís hard enough as it is to know which immunity or stun will over rule the other if you donít play all the classes. If all you do is read your own ability or utility descriptions, they say things like ďit will rootĒ the other player. But no where does it say ďunless they have an immunityĒ. Then you have to work out whose ability over rules the other. Which often requires finding a guide or coming to the forums to complain itís broken (which you shouldnít have to do).

IMO (which is probably wrong) the last thing we need is more immunities. What we need is them to nerf some of these speed abilities and soft stun and slow abilities. Then they could nerf some of the extra break abilities and go back to where each class had one hard stun and CC.
We could then have distinct classes again and specialist spec that could have one extra slow or mez. ie, Engineering snipers grenade could still have a slow.

Which leads to another point of contention. Just about every class or spec has a similar ability now to all other classes.
And they are becoming too generic. Which is why I think the tactical items are beng introduced in 6.0. If they didnít do that, they would be hard pressed to give new abilities without ability bloating and more generic feeling classes.

Ie, my rage Jugg and Fury Mara have basically the same rotation on the same abilities. There are only some small differences and they are around DCDs and Predation or Guard. Everything else is basically the same.
Madness Sorcs and Lighting Sorcs are basically both dot specs instead of one being dot (madness) and one being burst (lightning). IMO, lightning doesnít need dots.

Of course there are still some fundamental differences between certain specs and classes. But I find that these are getting smaller with each meta. ie, now immunities are starting to spread. Iím all for an immunity on a class, but only if itís too offset another weak ability. There needs to be a trade off somewhere or all classes will be over powered and too grindy to kill. ie, A Merc should not feel like you are trying to kill a tank. If someone wants to play a Mando type tank, the only spec should be the PT tank.

You should either have really strong dps and weaker DCDs or the other way around. What we have now is classes that are poorly balanced and immunities have a lot to do with that. Adding more will only make it worse.
My poor Lightning Sorc has weak burst but is hard to kill in a 1v1. So unless the other player is a god or an Operative, I wonít kill them and they wonít kill me. That is the concept of boring and utter frustration for both people.
I would gladly trade off some of my survivability for some stronger burst that may allow me to kill something.

Mercís should not have had their Dps nerfed after 5.0. They should have had their DCDs nerfed instead. No one had a problem with the damage, only their ability to face tank everything and not die. Bioware as per usual didnít listen to expert player feed back. Iím talking about the highest ranked players here who explained exactly what the issue was and how to fix it. If Bioware had listened instead of nerfing classes dps, everyone would have been happier.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
06.08.2019 , 07:34 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2glNrGEKnko&t=2s

If DPS sins were able to move like the ninja class in BDO and everytime they used a dash ability ( on a cooldown of course) they could evade dmg/stuns/ccs then dps sins would be considered a much stronger class (possibly even match the level of merc/mara).
But that is stupid. Why would you want to make a Sin as strong as either of those two. They already have some of the strongest survival abilities. All that would do is make them the top dps meta and they would be stupidly OP.
They already do some good damage. In a 1v1, you can wear down most other classes and win the fight, especially against a Mara and a Merc.

As it stands, both Merc and Maraís already have OP survivability. The Mara I can understand because they are the only class without a self healing ability or hard stealth out of combat ability. Camo does not break combat like the Sins stealth out,

What needs to happen is some nerfs, not buffs.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
06.08.2019 , 07:36 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
Wait that white bar is related to stuns? I thought it was the flight-progress-animation for flying down from spawn in ACW. Or maybe the spawn door timer for the other maps?

Or, in other words.... "yeah, that".
Whatís sad is most casual pvp people donít even have the resolve bar turned on in preferences or know itís there or even what the resolve bar does

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
06.08.2019 , 09:48 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Whatís sad is most casual pvp people donít even have the resolve bar turned on in preferences or know itís there or even what the resolve bar does
if they don't know about it, then it's already on.
Krack

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
06.08.2019 , 11:04 PM | #15
there is no "new" stun lock meta, no new hard stuns have been added to swtor since 3.0

this is a L2P issue. there must always be a way to die, to lose. should you never lose, there will be no challenge.. without challenge, why would you play? I dont play with 5 year old toys. I play videogames, and usually on hard mode.

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.08.2019 , 11:49 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
there is no "new" stun lock meta, no new hard stuns have been added to swtor since 3.0

this is a L2P issue. there must always be a way to die, to lose. should you never lose, there will be no challenge.. without challenge, why would you play? I dont play with 5 year old toys. I play videogames, and usually on hard mode.
The new stun lock meta is removing stun dr and phasewalk from certain classes making them exceptionally weaker.

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.08.2019 , 11:55 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
No, but force speed has a stun breaker in it if you choose the right ability (as long as you donít get netted)

Also, if you donít have every class with speed ability, you donít need so many mez (soft stun abilities) or slow affects.

When every class has speed, it becomes speed wars. When there are too many stuns, it becomes stun wars.
It seems every meta it has swung back and forth between the two. One meta would be stuns, the next would be speed. So to try and balance it out, they would add more of them the next meta instead of nerfing them, they buffed it added more.

Now itís at the point that they canít add anymore or it becomes too ridiculous, so they have started to add more immunities. This pattern will probably continue because they canít go much further with stuns or speed. Which I think is a mistake because itís hard enough as it is to know which immunity or stun will over rule the other if you donít play all the classes. If all you do is read your own ability or utility descriptions, they say things like ďit will rootĒ the other player. But no where does it say ďunless they have an immunityĒ. Then you have to work out whose ability over rules the other. Which often requires finding a guide or coming to the forums to complain itís broken (which you shouldnít have to do).

IMO (which is probably wrong) the last thing we need is more immunities. What we need is them to nerf some of these speed abilities and soft stun and slow abilities. Then they could nerf some of the extra break abilities and go back to where each class had one hard stun and CC.
We could then have distinct classes again and specialist spec that could have one extra slow or mez. ie, Engineering snipers grenade could still have a slow.

Which leads to another point of contention. Just about every class or spec has a similar ability now to all other classes.
And they are becoming too generic. Which is why I think the tactical items are beng introduced in 6.0. If they didnít do that, they would be hard pressed to give new abilities without ability bloating and more generic feeling classes.

Ie, my rage Jugg and Fury Mara have basically the same rotation on the same abilities. There are only some small differences and they are around DCDs and Predation or Guard. Everything else is basically the same.
Madness Sorcs and Lighting Sorcs are basically both dot specs instead of one being dot (madness) and one being burst (lightning). IMO, lightning doesnít need dots.

Of course there are still some fundamental differences between certain specs and classes. But I find that these are getting smaller with each meta. ie, now immunities are starting to spread. Iím all for an immunity on a class, but only if itís too offset another weak ability. There needs to be a trade off somewhere or all classes will be over powered and too grindy to kill. ie, A Merc should not feel like you are trying to kill a tank. If someone wants to play a Mando type tank, the only spec should be the PT tank.

You should either have really strong dps and weaker DCDs or the other way around. What we have now is classes that are poorly balanced and immunities have a lot to do with that. Adding more will only make it worse.
My poor Lightning Sorc has weak burst but is hard to kill in a 1v1. So unless the other player is a god or an Operative, I wonít kill them and they wonít kill me. That is the concept of boring and utter frustration for both people.
I would gladly trade off some of my survivability for some stronger burst that may allow me to kill something.

Mercís should not have had their Dps nerfed after 5.0. They should have had their DCDs nerfed instead. No one had a problem with the damage, only their ability to face tank everything and not die. Bioware as per usual didnít listen to expert player feed back. Iím talking about the highest ranked players here who explained exactly what the issue was and how to fix it. If Bioware had listened instead of nerfing classes dps, everyone would have been happier.
Yes!!! I honestly agree with most of what you said, the problem with the pvp is that it is too mundane and repetitve, we know what each class has and exactly how to fight it. We need more creativity which is what I was saying the entire time. In regards to the post you responded to, I was just stating the reason why certain classes are op and why certain classes are not and the root of this issue is hard stuns. We need more creativity and innovative ideas that will allow each class to feel unique and different without adding more of what is already in the game. Do you have any ideas at all that might work rather than what you think would not work?

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.09.2019 , 12:04 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
But that is stupid. Why would you want to make a Sin as strong as either of those two. They already have some of the strongest survival abilities. All that would do is make them the top dps meta and they would be stupidly OP.
They already do some good damage. In a 1v1, you can wear down most other classes and win the fight, especially against a Mara and a Merc.

As it stands, both Merc and Maraís already have OP survivability. The Mara I can understand because they are the only class without a self healing ability or hard stealth out of combat ability. Camo does not break combat like the Sins stealth out,

What needs to happen is some nerfs, not buffs.
  • I would want to make a sin as strong as the other classes because that is the class i main and play the most

If you believe a sin can consistently defeat a merc , mara or a sniper in a 1v1 (who are on the same skill level) then debating with you may not be worth it.

Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
What needs to happen is some nerfs, not buffs.
This is were I completly disagree, what needs to happen is more class diversity which we should be recieving in 6.0. I was just offering and showing you an example of what could be implemented in order to make sins "better" and "more fun" for the next patch. Its just an idea that could help sins find an identity and individuality that seperates them from every other class.

Because clearly Bioware needs help, removing crushing darkness, nerfing their burst, removing stun dr and pw just ruined deception sins and honestly made the class too easy. People need more innovative ideas that we have not seen before so that every class can have true depth.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
06.09.2019 , 07:55 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
The new stun lock meta is removing stun dr and phasewalk from certain classes making them exceptionally weaker.
only 2 specs in all of swtor have "lost" stun DR, juggs never had it. those specs are sins and pts. while, yes they need love, stun DR is not going to save them. they arent at the bottom of meta because they cant survive an 8 sec tunnel

sorcs still have it and so do mercs. while we are on the topic btw, if I remember correctly only 1 pt spec had it, AP, it was a tree buff, not a utlity.

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.09.2019 , 09:18 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
only 2 specs in all of swtor have "lost" stun DR, juggs never had it. those specs are sins and pts. while, yes they need love, stun DR is not going to save them. they arent at the bottom of meta because they cant survive an 8 sec tunnel

sorcs still have it and so do mercs. while we are on the topic btw, if I remember correctly only 1 pt spec had it, AP, it was a tree buff, not a utlity.
Sure, it doesnt change the fact that pt and sins need something to make them more viable. Hopefully people can come up with good ideas that dont make the game more mundane.