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Operative suvivability?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Operative suvivability?

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
05.29.2019 , 04:35 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by DzastinBiberi View Post
I could swear that you can still dodge dmg if you pop evasion just before you get stunned. Interesting info, I'll test this, I've never noticed this on my op and I did get stunned while I had evasion on. Although I dont main op, on, juggs even if they stun you while you have reflect on, you'll still gonna reflect that stun dmg and thats a fact.
quick note: all white damage dcds are null while stunned.. however. saber ward has an asorb in it that will still negate damage. its just "absorb" rather than "deflect"

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
05.29.2019 , 04:45 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by DzastinBiberi View Post
I could swear that you can still dodge dmg if you pop evasion just before you get stunned. Interesting info, I'll test this, I've never noticed this on my op and I did get stunned while I had evasion on. Although I dont main op, on, juggs even if they stun you while you have reflect on, you'll still gonna reflect that stun dmg and thats a fact.
I know you know this but it comes to mind that you might see the reflect thing (Back at Ya! in the legendary tier). it's tied to the dodge ability but it's a straight reflect of tech/force. that's what I was getting at in the first page.
Krack

DzastinBiberi's Avatar


DzastinBiberi
05.29.2019 , 05:43 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I know you know this but it comes to mind that you might see the reflect thing (Back at Ya! in the legendary tier). it's tied to the dodge ability but it's a straight reflect of tech/force. that's what I was getting at in the first page.
Ye I have that utility picked on my op.

Fellow-Canadian's Avatar


Fellow-Canadian
05.30.2019 , 09:20 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
It's a fair bit of luck that he survived that. At the end of his stun, he had like 2k health left, then he hit Dodge + adrenal + medpac, then roll healed away with white bar. The fact that this opponents weren't able to kill him while he was stunned tells me at least half of them were trash.
I was the player in the video, so I can mention I also used a flashbang, the shield/absorb and the root purge/heal utility. So, in that brief moment, I burned almost every cooldown I had. If I don't have everything up as I did, it's likely I do not survive.

This was a clear case of the other team not closing out an easy kill. I should have died in that stunlock but they just never got in that extra attack they needed. Their mistake afterwards was to not chase me down because I had almost nothing left to use.

So, with respect to the discussion on whether specific cases like this deserve a whole class nerf? You can clearly see how the other team handled it. I'd say in my case it had more to do with being lucky than too good.

Surviving a 1vs6 is seriously not normal. We don't need to balance the game around that. I would say in these situations people need to look closer at player skill before class balance.

If this class was actually immortal, then I'm amazed because I see so few people playing them in PVP. This class has a pretty high skill ceiling for PVP and I don't think engaging groups is as easy to pull off as people make it sound.
The Canadian Legacy
Check out my PVP videos on my YouTube channel.

UltraFlashStar's Avatar


UltraFlashStar
05.30.2019 , 10:10 AM | #25
Dodge blocks all white damage, and if you have reflect it reflects 150% force and tech back to the opponent, but its not perfect like the Guardian and Commando. You still take some of the damage.
Coppes Spacer
I got the skills, the talent, and the best starship there is.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
05.30.2019 , 11:19 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Fellow-Canadian View Post
I was the player in the video, so I can mention I also used a flashbang, the shield/absorb and the root purge/heal utility. So, in that brief moment, I burned almost every cooldown I had. If I don't have everything up as I did, it's likely I do not survive.

This was a clear case of the other team not closing out an easy kill. I should have died in that stunlock but they just never got in that extra attack they needed. Their mistake afterwards was to not chase me down because I had almost nothing left to use.

So, with respect to the discussion on whether specific cases like this deserve a whole class nerf? You can clearly see how the other team handled it. I'd say in my case it had more to do with being lucky than too good.

Surviving a 1vs6 is seriously not normal. We don't need to balance the game around that. I would say in these situations people need to look closer at player skill before class balance.

If this class was actually immortal, then I'm amazed because I see so few people playing them in PVP. This class has a pretty high skill ceiling for PVP and I don't think engaging groups is as easy to pull off as people make it sound.
I certainly don't suggest that its easy to go 1v6 or even 1v3 at a turret, and for the most part I agree with what you've said. Where I disagree, is that high - skill level or not, you only see Operatives and Scoundrels doing it. Those 6 players that failed to defeat you may well be sub - par in skill, but had you used other class there instead of Scoundrel, you would have died. On Darth Malgus I see an Operative going solo at a turret and outnumbered in every other match. There's a few guys that are known for it, and if you land on their team everyone knows they don't want anyone else with them, they prefer to go solo. It doesn't matter that they are highly skilled, the fact is you can't do this with any other class. And for that reason I do think the class needs to be nerfed.

It's still possible to retain its top tier 1v1 status while nerfing it enough so that the class can' no longer make a mockery of half the enemy team. Was it not you yourself in your opening comment that said you don't fear for your survival no matter how many you are up against? What else is the definition of OP if not that?

There was a time when Skanks could go 1v3 or 4 at a time, and they were nerfed, so why not Operatives?

Fellow-Canadian's Avatar


Fellow-Canadian
06.01.2019 , 12:25 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Ttoilleekul View Post
I certainly don't suggest that its easy to go 1v6 or even 1v3 at a turret, and for the most part I agree with what you've said. Where I disagree, is that high - skill level or not, you only see Operatives and Scoundrels doing it. Those 6 players that failed to defeat you may well be sub - par in skill, but had you used other class there instead of Scoundrel, you would have died. On Darth Malgus I see an Operative going solo at a turret and outnumbered in every other match. There's a few guys that are known for it, and if you land on their team everyone knows they don't want anyone else with them, they prefer to go solo. It doesn't matter that they are highly skilled, the fact is you can't do this with any other class. And for that reason I do think the class needs to be nerfed.

It's still possible to retain its top tier 1v1 status while nerfing it enough so that the class can' no longer make a mockery of half the enemy team. Was it not you yourself in your opening comment that said you don't fear for your survival no matter how many you are up against? What else is the definition of OP if not that?

There was a time when Skanks could go 1v3 or 4 at a time, and they were nerfed, so why not Operatives?
My comment about fearing no group is because I know I'm a really good PVP'er. I know exactly how to engage the group and when I need to back off.

Generally speaking though, in 1vs6 the scoundrel always dies. So, how do you solve for the 0.1% chance a group of players misfired and let a scoundrel get away? I think the devil is in the details here, so what changes would you make? Have you left room to consider that other classes can also get out of the same situation? If I were playing a mara, I would've popped god bubble, warzone medpack, AOE mez, then put on my quick running shoes and vanished TFO. Nerf maras? Sure I reappear, but I've run so far away they really have to go out of their way to kill me.

1vs6 is a pretty extreme thing to balance for, but 1vs2 and 1vs3 engagements to some extent are completely doable engagements for scoundrels. The only reason a scoundrel can engage groups so well is that they have heals and can reliably vanish when things get too hot to reset the fight. I think something that really hasn't been mentioned yet is the mobility provided by roll. You see a scoundrel engaging a group and I'll show you an amazing player rolling around perfectly. If you can constantly break line of sight then nobody can hurt you. I think a large sense of frustration lies in the fact people find themselves unable to stay on top of the scoundrel long enough to eat through the hots. If you can control the scoundrel and stop them from rolling they go down quickly. Roll is life.

There are other classes that can self-sustain themselves with their own healing and can also be successful in 1v2 or 1v3+ encounters. Sure, you might argue there is a skill or class composition imbalance between players there, but you'd have to explain why not for scoundrels too?
The Canadian Legacy
Check out my PVP videos on my YouTube channel.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
06.02.2019 , 08:21 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Fellow-Canadian View Post
My comment about fearing no group is because I know I'm a really good PVP'er. I know exactly how to engage the group and when I need to back off.

Generally speaking though, in 1vs6 the scoundrel always dies. So, how do you solve for the 0.1% chance a group of players misfired and let a scoundrel get away? I think the devil is in the details here, so what changes would you make? Have you left room to consider that other classes can also get out of the same situation? If I were playing a mara, I would've popped god bubble, warzone medpack, AOE mez, then put on my quick running shoes and vanished TFO. Nerf maras? Sure I reappear, but I've run so far away they really have to go out of their way to kill me.

1vs6 is a pretty extreme thing to balance for, but 1vs2 and 1vs3 engagements to some extent are completely doable engagements for scoundrels. The only reason a scoundrel can engage groups so well is that they have heals and can reliably vanish when things get too hot to reset the fight. I think something that really hasn't been mentioned yet is the mobility provided by roll. You see a scoundrel engaging a group and I'll show you an amazing player rolling around perfectly. If you can constantly break line of sight then nobody can hurt you. I think a large sense of frustration lies in the fact people find themselves unable to stay on top of the scoundrel long enough to eat through the hots. If you can control the scoundrel and stop them from rolling they go down quickly. Roll is life.

There are other classes that can self-sustain themselves with their own healing and can also be successful in 1v2 or 1v3+ encounters. Sure, you might argue there is a skill or class composition imbalance between players there, but you'd have to explain why not for scoundrels too?
Your opening comment says it all, you can't go in like that with any other class against so many and "just know when to back off." Sure in a chain stun a Sent / Mara could survive in the way you described. Same way a Guardian can survive by popping FD while chain stunned, then Awe and blade blitz out of line of sight, and if you have it selected, Focused freedom for that extra bit of speed. I've done it many times. But its still not the same as what Scoundrels do a regular basis. Surviving a chain stun and then getting out of there is something a lot of classes can do, but going up against 2 or 3 and holding them off indefinitely, this is the domain of Scoundrels and only scoundrels. Like I said it doesn't matter if the other players suck, no other class can do it. Scoundrels will roll around the turret all day long and never feel the sweat of danger vs 3 players, until they finally get them all by the turret and bam they pop the flash grenade and cap. No other class can engage 3 bad players and be confident of not dying for as long as it takes to get the cap.

So how would I nerf them? Simple, I would increase the cooldown times of their defences. Or I would increase the cooldown time of the roll. As a trade off give them a higher armour rating. This way they would still be formidable 1v1 class but would not be able to make a mockery of multiple players.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
06.02.2019 , 01:42 PM | #29
A good sorc/sage can do the same thing at a node, but they just don't normally guard for some reason. And if they attack a node, you can see them coming a mile away. But they can absolutely hold a node indefinitely against 2 or 3 if played well.
-Beruhl
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
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abhaxus's Avatar


abhaxus
06.02.2019 , 07:10 PM | #30
The only thing that leth op is good for in PVP is 1v4s against bads. Sounds like your teammates blew their stuns after they were already outside their burst windows. The only thing I "fear" on my op is getting chaim netted. Missing a roll heal is death in almost any figjt.
Abhaxus - Sorc heal/dps | Pill Cosby - leth op | Buubi'sett - PT | Snugglenaut - Jugg hybrid | Wayward'son - sniper | Abhaxuus - Mara | Weezles - Scoundrel | Ahaxus - Sage | Spankasin - tankasin | Ahole - Commando