Jump to content

Lost Island observation


Recommended Posts

I see some people complain about it being to anti melee and I disagree with that on a healing point(scoundrel) as long as the group is stacked behind the boss also it really depends on the skill of tank and I admit that I could not tank the first boss I suck at it but never been a problem with my melee dps if the tank and healer is decent.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 102
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I finished Lost Island HM last night in a PUG : a tank is in Columi/Tionese, a melee DPS in Columi/Tionese, a 'geared' merc, and myself. (semi-geared merc healer). This is what I have noticed.

 

As neither me or the merc have interrupts, incinerate must be stopped by the tank or the melee dps. They simply cannot handle both movement and interrupt together. Moving out of the blue circle by itself is fine. Interrupt by itself is fine. Combine the two and they will mess up. After a few wipes, we resorted to the backup plan : ranged in the center, while the tank + melee move around on the outside. This worked because the amount of movement is reduced, and both the merc and myself have no issues with performing our roles while dodging lightning rods.

 

It's a matter of experience.

 

After that, we 'two shot' the 'Donkey Kong (tank flew off the platform on the first go), and then one shotted Dr Lorrick.

 

The first boss relies on the 'tank test'. The second boss relies on the healer, and the last boss relies on DPS. It is a very well though out flashpoint. If you're failing at the robot, that means your tank needs to do their homework.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The person you quoted was making the point that the group finder clearly communicates that players should expect a higher challenge from LI (on account of the tier 1 and tier 2 distinctions). Your response to this is to comment on how good you apparently are at clearing the flashpoint.

Now you are putting words in my mouth, at no stage have I blown my own trumpet. In fact the first time I attempted HM LI it took us well over 2.5 hrs to complete with multiple wipes.

Irrespective of whether it has been marked as T1 or T2 flashpoints or instances by definition should be completable within 30min to 90 min. Past experience in both this game and other games have shown players that this is the case, do you trulty believe that the average player in either a guild group or pug group could complete HM LI within that time?

It is also poor manners to clip 1 sentence out of a paragraph in an attempt to try & score points.

 

Your statements don't even have basic logical consistency. There was literally no connection between what was quoted and what you asserted. It's bizarre.

statements don't even have basic logical consistency?

no connection between what was quoted and what you asserted?

Sorry, these statements are in fact bizarre, and nothing short of a veiled attempt to insult.

 

It's clear no amount of reasonable discussion will convince you to see past this nonsensical raid/non-raid divide you've constructed in your head. Part of the problem is that you simply provide no actual justification for your arguments: you just make arbitrary declarations about "non-raiders" and "raid mechanics" (whatever this means), while occasionally hand-waving Cataclysm references

The above is what I classify as political talk, saying a great deal while actually saying nothing.

It's quite simple really, there are 2 types of players.......those that raid and those that dont. In the category of non raiders we have some pvpers, some crafters, & some casuals. Are you truly saying you dont see this?

Like many others I played Wow for 7 years, i saw it's rise to greatness and the start of it's decline from the dizzying heights it rose to. The introduction of raid style mechanics on boss fights in instances was a contibuting factor in the significant decline of sub rates in the first 3 months of Cataclysm's release.

 

Can you at least explain to me the following things:

Seriously??? you dont understand the term raid mechanics? Okay i'll bite

 

1. What exactly are raid mechanics, as separate from - assumably - flashpoint mechanics?

Raid mechanics

- group coordination

- patience

- time investment ( I still remember spending 6 weeks 3 nights a week on 1 boss in SSC many many years ago)

Flashpoint mechanics

- gratification/time investment of 30 - 90 min

- less group coordination required than operation bosses

- patience should never be a factor

 

2. Why should "non-raiders" have no options for challenging content?

It's not that they shouldnt but rather that the rewards need to justify the effort. If the average player is expected to show patience, a time commitment, and practice group coordination in a flashpoint then the reward should equal the effort.. Then and only then should we be justified in telling the average player to man up rather than calling them "bad" or saying L2P. And as HM LI currently stands the reward does not equal the effort for the average player, and for those players who have it on farm you probably already outgear it.

 

3. Why should "raiders" have no options for challenging content in less than 8-man groups?

I can only speak for myself

I raid 3 days a week for 4 hours at a time, then there are dailies, and daily/weekly HM FP's to do. On top of that I run HM LI once a week to help a fellow guild member and collect my 8 BH badges. Why would I want raid difficulty introduced into 4 man content as well? I already get my challenging content 3 nights a week.....Time vs Effort vs Reward.

Edited by NoxiousAlby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's quite simple really, there are 2 types of players.......those that raid and those that dont. In the category of non raiders we have some pvpers, some crafters, & some casuals. Are you truly saying you dont see this?

I don't see how choosing to delineate the community along the lines of those who raid and those who don't has any real relevance. Your argument seems to center on the idea that Lost Island is too exclusionary to the ability level of many "non-raiders" and is therefore discouraging. The way I see it, reality is far more complex than that.

 

Dedicated PVPers (and there's a fair few of them) are "non-raiders", but I doubt the relative difficulty of one flashpoint means anything to them. Many "non-raiders" don't even do endgame instanced content, choosing instead to level alts, craft, RP, etc. On the other side of the coin, some raiders aren't even capable of clearing LI unless they're carried. I've met more than one dedicated raider who's actually quite bad at the game, and more than a few "non-raiding casuals" who are very capable. Dividing people on the basis of whether or not they engage in 8-man (or greater) group content is just too simplistic.

 

The same goes for your concept of raid mechanics, since D7 has an equal (if not higher) level of mechanical challenge to the tier 1 ops. With the exception of Fabricator, everything in EV and KP is so simple it's barely more demanding than any of the tier 1 flashpoints anyway.

 

Maybe we can just agree that instead of adjusting the difficulty of LI, the loot drops should be retuned to make it more attractive and rewarding to players who don't necessarily have the benefit of being in a PVE progression-focused guild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can disagree, but that won't make me any less right. I explained how non-raiders can achieve BiS for about 80-90% of their gear, give or take. I'm yet to see a counterpoint.

By your own admission non raiders will be BIS "for about 80-90% of their gear, give or take" does not justify a counterpoint. I stand by what i said, non raiders will not be BIS with all their gear, and what gear they can achieve as BIS doesnt bother me. I truly worry less about what others can achieve, and enjoy helping others achieve what they cant on their own or in groups.

 

I more or less agree here. Aside from the weekly BH comms, I suspect the only players who really benefit much from this flashpoints (notwithstanding the simple fun factor) are the more hardcore variety (or "raiders" if you will) who use it to accelerate their alts' gearing curves.

All correct. Which to me is a shame

I actually gear my alts running HM EV & KP with new guild recruits, but as you said the 8 BH comms are the only reason to keep running it. I say it's a shame because players who choose not to raid benefit most from this flashpoint, and for a percentage of them it will probably never be completed.

 

For players who are decently geared, the only loot-based reason to return regularly is if you're lucky enough to have a Rakata chest itemisation with a decent mod or enhancement. This is true of all flashpoints, essentially, but since LI stands alone in tier 2 it should really provide a stronger incentive to rerun it.

I try not to rush things as that leads to a content vacuum in MMO's. Given the BH comms from running EV & KP in SM using the RDF platform to launch the raid, as well as daily HM FP's and the EOT weekly running HM LI for BH comms really is pointless as you dont need them. But I can understand the importance of earning the extra 8 comms for doing the HM LI weekly as well as the 5 you get from the daily T2 FP's for players that dont raid.

Again speaking for myslef HM LI offers no incentive to return to it, apart from currently helping fellow guild members get the Aratech Ice and I am looking forward to not having to do that anymore.

 

As i've said before I do feel for the players who are the ones that would benefit from Hm LI the most and yet are struggling to complete it.

Edited by NoxiousAlby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see how choosing to delineate the community along the lines of those who raid and those who don't has any real relevance. Your argument seems to center on the idea that Lost Island is too exclusionary to the ability level of many "non-raiders" and is therefore discouraging. The way I see it, reality is far more complex than that.

 

Dedicated PVPers (and there's a fair few of them) are "non-raiders", but I doubt the relative difficulty of one flashpoint means anything to them. Many "non-raiders" don't even do endgame instanced content, choosing instead to level alts, craft, RP, etc. On the other side of the coin, some raiders aren't even capable of clearing LI unless they're carried. I've met more than one dedicated raider who's actually quite bad at the game, and more than a few "non-raiding casuals" who are very capable. Dividing people on the basis of whether or not they engage in 8-man (or greater) group content is just too simplistic.

I cant argue with any of the above

But there have been a number of posts on the forums from players who want to do HM LI but are really struggling, and I feel for this group of players. I hope most will persevere and succeed but worry that we will lose this group of players indefinately.

 

Dont get me wrong I dont judge a players ability on whether they raid or not, like you I have met players of great skill who didnt raid (but now do after convincing them to join one of our raid groups even if it's just 1 night a week) and raiders who cant grasped skill rotations or the best way to play their class. In their case the desire is there but but their comprehension is lacking and there is only so much you can do to help someone.

 

The same goes for your concept of raid mechanics, since D7 has an equal (if not higher) level of mechanical challenge to the tier 1 ops. With the exception of Fabricator, everything in EV and KP is so simple it's barely more demanding than any of the tier 1 flashpoints anyway.

Again we agree (what is the world coming to)

Your right, in fact I felt that EV & KP was a great introduction to raiding even though they lacked challenge for experienced raiders. It has enabled us to introduce raiding to players who have never raided before, in fact i wish that BW had taken it a step further. I was glad for the introduction of 8 man raids and had hoped they would have introduced 4 man raiding as well for players who dont like large group dynamics. The more players who become actively involved in a game the stronger the game will be in my opinion.

 

Maybe we can just agree that instead of adjusting the difficulty of LI, the loot drops should be retuned to make it more attractive and rewarding to players who don't necessarily have the benefit of being in a PVE progression-focused guild.

I would be happy with that outcome, it would at least justify for players who are struggling now the resolve to continue to finish HM LI. It would most definately reinforce their determination and that could only be a good thing

 

Thankyou for the chat Aurojiin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I want to come back on this

 

1. What exactly are raid mechanics, as separate from - assumably - flashpoint mechanics?

 

Raid mechanics

- group coordination

- patience

- time investment ( I still remember spending 6 weeks 3 nights a week on 1 boss in SSC many many years ago)

Flashpoint mechanics

- gratification/time investment of 30 - 90 min

- less group coordination required than operation bosses

- patience should never be a factor

 

So let's get this straight

 

You say that a group of 4 stranger, unable to coordinate their effort (your no group coordination argument), should be able to blast through any hardmode flashpoint (your 30 minutes time frame argument), with no danger of ever wiping (your no patience required argument) and be rewarded top raid gear (your instant gratification argument).

 

that's your ideal flashpoint? That is your vision of end game PVE

 

 

-------

 

A Flashpoint is a style of gameplay, 4-man as opposed to operation which are 8 or 16 man. Nowhere in the definition of the flashpoiint there is a notion of being easier than operation. A given flashpoint can be easier or harder than a given operation, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

All that is needed is that there is content for all type of players.

 

Easy flashpoint and operation for player not wanting to push themselve or invest much time in learning game mechanics. Typically, normal and hard mode tier 1 flaspoint, normal lost island and storymode EV/KP covert this point

 

Medium difficulty flaspoint and operation for player wanting some level of challenge in the game. Here you have hard mode EV/KP, hard mode LI, normal denova.

 

Harder difficulty content, for player really wanting to test their limit (and push them further). Hard mode Denova, and later nightmare denova is meant for them.

 

That is my vision of endgame PVE. At any level of difficulty the game should offer a variety of playstyle, solo, 4 man, operation. unfortunately there aren't any really hard solo and 4 man content, but there is at least a ONE mederalty challenging 4-man content, leave it be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to come back on this

 

 

 

So let's get this straight

 

You say that a group of 4 stranger, unable to coordinate their effort (your no group coordination argument), should be able to blast through any hardmode flashpoint (your 30 minutes time frame argument), with no danger of ever wiping (your no patience required argument) and be rewarded top raid gear (your instant gratification argument).

 

that's your ideal flashpoint? That is your vision of end game PVE[/Quote]

Your being a little simplistic, so lets put things in perspective.

If we look at successfull MMO's in terms of subscription rates WOTLK would be amongst one of the highest subscribed games. Although the Heroic Instances were easy and provided little challenge for experienced players most were runnable in 30min or less.

If we go further back in time to vanilla wow or TBC heroic 4 mans were generally run by raiders as part of gearing your characters for entry level raids.

Over the years (7 in wow) the mentallity of end game content has changed, players that once never participated have become avid participants with the introduction of the dungeon finder. Non raiding players now expect to be able to complete flashpoints/instances as part of their end game content, it's what they are paying for. As for wiping mistakes will always be costly, over the years i've seen more wipes on trash accidently pulled or incorrectly cc'd than n boss fights. So no, I wouldnt expect any HM flashpoint to be wipe free in terms of mechanics.

Given the addition of campiagn tier set Rakata is no longer the "top raid gear", so what I am saying is that HM flashpoints should be doable within 30-45 min (unless theres a wipe) by the average player in an unfamiliar group. Even if the flashpoints drops 1 piece of redundant raid gear, the first boss only drops Columi and is without doubt more difficult than any encounter other than those in HM EC.

 

Ideally the perfect situation would be to leave HM LI alone and not adjust the boss mechanics, but I would have each boss drop Rakata. Why? For those of us doing it weekly we dont need the drops so they are of no significance but for players struggling it will provide incentive to keep trying. Players having difficulty need to adopt a raiding mentality when running this flashpoint, unlike other flashpoints or instances (in other games) HM LI for some players will be a work in progress and for this reason I would have the rewards provide them with the dedication to keep trying.

 

 

-------

 

A Flashpoint is a style of gameplay, 4-man as opposed to operation which are 8 or 16 man. Nowhere in the definition of the flashpoiint there is a notion of being easier than operation. A given flashpoint can be easier or harder than a given operation, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

All that is needed is that there is content for all type of players.

Sorry but that is old school mentality

Anyone playing MMO's for the past 7+ years have seen flashpoints/instances become easier as developers realised that they became end game content for some casuals and non raiders. Blizz tried to reverse the trend in Cataclysm and we all know how successfull that was with subs bleeding to an all time low within the first 3-6 months. For players unwilling to dedicate time to a specific raiding schedule and hours each week flashpoints will always be their game of choice. Many have families and jobs, they just want to come home & do a few runs before logging off, for this reason flashpoints need to be easier than raids. As raids should provide a couple of months worth of dedication and keep players occupied between content.

 

Easy flashpoint and operation for player not wanting to push themselve or invest much time in learning game mechanics. Typically, normal and hard mode tier 1 flaspoint, normal lost island and storymode EV/KP covert this point

If there is one thing I have learnt over the years is that players who dont raid never will, some players dont want to join a random 8 man experience even if they have the time. And honestly who can blame them? Posters bandy around terms like "bads" and have an intolerance towards others. We see it everyday in general chat regardless of what games you play. For this reason players who run 4 man content will only ever run 4 man content and the assumption that heroics or HM is a prerequisite to raiding is false.

Considering we have had no new T1 content since Dec 2011 I would expect many dedicated 4 man players would have tried to run the T2 flashpoints it's natural progression. Some have enjoyed it, others have become disillusioned and frustrated.

 

Medium difficulty flaspoint and operation for player wanting some level of challenge in the game. Here you have hard mode EV/KP, hard mode LI, normal denova.

 

Harder difficulty content, for player really wanting to test their limit (and push them further). Hard mode Denova, and later nightmare denova is meant for them.

 

That is my vision of endgame PVE. At any level of difficulty the game should offer a variety of playstyle, solo, 4 man, operation. unfortunately there aren't any really hard solo and 4 man content, but there is at least a ONE mederalty challenging 4-man content, leave it be.

If you had bothered following my conversation you would find I supported leaving it alone, but was in favour of improving the reward to provide greater incentive to players struggling with it. Really make it worth their while comming back week after week just to try and down 1 boss at a time.

Edited by NoxiousAlby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but that is old school mentality

Anyone playing MMO's for the past 7+ years have seen flashpoints/instances become easier as developers realised that they became end game content for some casuals and non raiders. Blizz tried to reverse the trend in Cataclysm and we all know how successfull that was with subs bleeding to an all time low within the first 3-6 months. For players unwilling to dedicate time to a specific raiding schedule and hours each week flashpoints will always be their game of choice. Many have families and jobs, they just want to come home & do a few runs before logging off, for this reason flashpoints need to be easier than raids. As raids should provide a couple of months worth of dedication and keep players occupied between content.

 

You do know that there are other MMOs than WoW.

 

What you're doing is compare everything in the MMO World to WoW, what Blizzard did, what they didn't, how the sub suffered and how they increased.

Breaking news : WoW was not successful because it was easy, or casual, or stuff like that, it was successful because they cattered to craploads of gamestyles, from casu to hardcore to casu pvpers and such.

 

The fact that you've seen more wipes on trash than on boss actually proves a point though : you definitely have run easy content for too long.

 

Easy content is fine, hard content is fine, average content is fine, however, if you don't give any of those, you'll loose subscriptions.

Making everything "heavily puggable" where having 4 players AFK won't even wipe you will not make everyone happy. That's why having 1 freaking Tier 2 flashpoint is fair enough, don't steal it from us.

 

And no giving Rakata to the whole place is not even remotely necessary nor it's fair. Operations need to get some incentive and the place is not hard enough to require such loot. Columi main hand and rakata chest is good enough incentive.

Edited by Nolenthar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You do know that there are other MMOs than WoW.

 

What you're doing is compare everything in the MMO World to WoW, what Blizzard did, what they didn't, how the sub suffered and how they increased.

Breaking news : WoW was not successful because it was easy, or casual, or stuff like that, it was successful because they cattered to craploads of gamestyles, from casu to hardcore to casu pvpers and such.

You dont compare apples to oranges, if you want to be comparable to the best then you compare yourself to the best. Wow never catered to all playstyles until they introduced Wotlk and even then experienced raiders will tell you it catered to the "average" player (except Ulduur) not them. Catalclysm did a 180 degree turn, and the rest is history so now welcome to the pandas to try and win the "average" player back. Wow and success was created by the community, I still remember the epic battles & invasions waged at Taren Mill & Southshore but even those days didnt last.

 

The fact that you've seen more wipes on trash than on boss actually proves a point though : you definitely have run easy content for too long.

Actually it's more of a testiment to amount of goofing around and fun I have playing with the same 8 players who have all been together for about 8 years now. We play seriously when it's boss time and have fun when it's not. If I could have any ability on my BH or Sniper it would be misdirection, placing it on the healer or other dps creates alot of laughter at times. Nothing is hard in these games, did you do ICC before the buff was introduced, or BWL , MC, SSC, BT, or Sunwell when it was relevant? Attempt to belittle me all you like it's water off a ducks back.

 

Easy content is fine, hard content is fine, average content is fine, however, if you don't give any of those, you'll loose subscriptions.

Making everything "heavily puggable" where having 4 players AFK won't even wipe you will not make everyone happy. That's why having 1 freaking Tier 2 flashpoint is fair enough, don't steal it from us.

I suggest you go back to reading 101, no one is trying to steal anything from you lol. I merely suggest that the rewards be improved to provide incentive to players struggling with it to keep their level of determination high. I already completed it the week it came out but am honestly sick of trying to help guildies through it who cant complete it just so they can get their damn blue speeder.

 

And no giving Rakata to the whole place is not even remotely necessary nor it's fair. Operations need to get some incentive and the place is not hard enough to require such loot. Columi main hand and rakata chest is good enough incentive.

Let me guess your still in Rakata? Well i'm already Campaign/Rakata with some BH mods added and I dont care if less fortunate players get the chance to obtain 3 pieces of Rakata gear from 3 bosses. If it convinces players to stick with the game because HM LI is a sign of things to come then great, let them have 3 pieces of Rakata it doesnt make me feel threatened at all.

 

Also all the bosses in HM EV & KP and the first 3 bosses in SM EC are easier than HM LI and yet they drop Rakata....go figure so what exactly isnt "fair"?. This is throwing a bone to players who dont raid, to give them the incentive to keep trying.

Edited by NoxiousAlby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we look at successfull MMO's in terms of subscription rates WOTLK .

 

Just for argument sake, allow me to challenge that, just indulge me for a minute, i'll be brief.

 

Since you want to use the example of wow, which is fair, since it's a popular MMO and one might learn from it. The data are

End of vanilla - 5 millions subs

End of TBC - 11 million subs

End of Wolk - just under 12 millions subs

Currently in cataclysm - just under 10 millions subs

 

So you might look at data and say wolk has the highest subs, must be the most popular, the better formula, i think it's wrong.

 

Look at the delta, the increase in population, by the end of TBC, wow has reach 11 millions, a very high delta, with no sign of slowing down. A this point of time, no one could predict a peak at barely 1 more million. The sky was the limit, 20 millions, 30 millions why not, whose to say it was impossible.

 

But in WoLK, Blizzard made very dramatic change to the game. Easy heroics, done in 10-15 minutes, easy naxaramas raid, showering the player base with epic item, litteraly drowning in them. Also, a badge system that always make obsolete the previous tier once a new tier comes out, well deep, profound change in the PVE progression path.

 

Results, the ever increasing on subs came to a near screeching halt, stagnate and finally drop a little toward the end of WoLK.

 

How do you have an increase of subs?

- you get new players

- you keep the current player in game.

 

This is were WoLK failed. Where he keeps getting newer player (the so called wrath babies), it coudn't do what its predecessor could, retain players.

 

that is why i think WoLK was a semi failure and vanilla/TBC a tremendous success.

 

Of course, those are raw data, anyone can bring their own interpretation, by no mean i pretend to have the truth. This is just what i believe is true/

 

 

The Moral (thanks for reading me). I believe as human being, we need goals, we need objective difficult to achieve to keep us going. Making slow but tangible progress towards it, that's what keep us interested.

 

There is a need, even for casual, for a difficult flashpoint. Something they would say, i did it, i beat lost island. Now that's something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add my voice to the pot.

 

I'm a new mmo player (been playing RPGs/other pc games for 25 years but never an mmo until TOR). I was drawn in as a Star Wars fan. I was convinced to try this because it was solo-friendly and I had no interest in joining a guild, doing endgame content or anything. My plan was to do the storyline quests for the 8 classes and stop.

 

So.

 

I've somehow changed into someone who likes the endgame content, HM FPs and the raid progression. I've been pugging HMFPs since 1.3 dropped and having a blast meeting new people etc, etc. etc.

 

I personally find HM LI very difficult and have not yet made it past the first boss.

 

However, I have no desire to have the difficulty adjusted in any way. I'm looking forward to getting my Columi MH when I eventually finish it. And as a Commando dps, I'll be very happy when that happens. pew pew pew

 

Instead, I will read strategies for fighting that boss, learn my class better, become a better player. Sooner or later I will win and feel like I accomplished something, and continue on with harder ops.

 

Just my $0.02.

Edited by JeffKretz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for argument sake, allow me to challenge that, just indulge me for a minute, i'll be brief.

 

Since you want to use the example of wow, which is fair, since it's a popular MMO and one might learn from it. The data are

End of vanilla - 5 millions subs

End of TBC - 11 million subs

End of Wolk - just under 12 millions subs

Currently in cataclysm - just under 10 millions subs

 

So you might look at data and say wolk has the highest subs, must be the most popular, the better formula, i think it's wrong.

You were right the first time in saying that Wotlk had the highest rate of subscriptions, and lets be honest as far as game developers are concerned this is the only statistic that matters. As far as the best formula I have yet to see any game that provides equally for all factions of a playerbase with any satisfaction, they all tend to lean one way or the other. Swtor in my opinion has come the closest to providing for solo, non raiding, & raiding players it's just unfortunate that the raiding content has not been sufficiently difficult enough to keep us busy between patches.

 

Look at the delta, the increase in population, by the end of TBC, wow has reach 11 millions, a very high delta, with no sign of slowing down. A this point of time, no one could predict a peak at barely 1 more million. The sky was the limit, 20 millions, 30 millions why not, whose to say it was impossible.

Every game has a saturation point, online subscriptions for a particular genre of games will only go so high. Future players will come from younger generations and at some stage older generations will leave. I believe achieving 12 million subs (and a good percentage of those were Chinese at a lower sub fee) was a significant feat in itself.

 

But yes I think that TBC was the pinnacle of Wow, best raids over all 4 expansions, introduction of arena combat, and flashpoints with extremely challenging trash that required constant CC. In fact the boss fights werent that difficult but the trash was unforgiving.

 

But in WoLK, Blizzard made very dramatic change to the game. Easy heroics, done in 10-15 minutes, easy naxaramas raid, showering the player base with epic item, litteraly drowning in them. Also, a badge system that always make obsolete the previous tier once a new tier comes out, well deep, profound change in the PVE progression path.

 

Results, the ever increasing on subs came to a near screeching halt, stagnate and finally drop a little toward the end of WoLK.

That would be one way to look at it, another would be to say that the MMO genre had reached saturation point. The important factor was that subs remained at 12 million for the life of the expansion except for the last 3 months. This was due to no new content added after ICC for 12months and Ruby Sanctum was quite unpopular. Compared to Cataclysm which had a 30% drop in subscriptions within the first 3 months Wotlk would have been considered a success.

 

Everything you said above is correct but it was also popular, the greater majority of the playerbase who would wait in a RDF queue for 40 min (dps) liked the fact that they could complete their heroic flashpoints within 15 - 30min.

 

How do you have an increase of subs?

- you get new players

- you keep the current player in game.

 

This is were WoLK failed. Where he keeps getting newer player (the so called wrath babies), it coudn't do what its predecessor could, retain players.

 

that is why i think WoLK was a semi failure and vanilla/TBC a tremendous success.

This is purely through your own perspective, why?

Because as a raider who worries more about others have vanilla & TBC kept epics out of the hands of the average player and most casuals. It made you feel epic and better than everyone else.

Wotlk changed this, yes the badge system handed out epic gear equivalent to raid gear without the set bonus. Some players no longer felt like special snowflakes, and it created an uproar amongst the most vocal of the forum trolls. What made TBC the best expansion was it's content, not it's attitude towards players deserving of rewards. But in terms of providing the greater majority of players with a feeling of accomplishment through gear progression Wotlk was miles ahead of other expansions and Blizzard now recognise this. If they didnt the developer who created Wotlk wouldnt be the lead designer on their new project "Titan".

 

The Moral (thanks for reading me). I believe as human being, we need goals, we need objective difficult to achieve to keep us going. Making slow but tangible progress towards it, that's what keep us interested.

No arguement from me here, the above is a very important point.

 

There is a need, even for casual, for a difficult flashpoint. Something they would say, i did it, i beat lost island. Now that's something.

For some non raiding & casual players, yes

But we need to put HM LI into perspective, apart from the Aratech Ice quest you wouldnt run HM LI. Considering that HM EV & KP and the first 3 bosses of SM EC are all easier than HM LI and offer better rewards theres no plausible reason to run HM LI. Some players do runs for the accomplishment but i'd bet my last bottom dollar most run them for gear progression its what MMO's have become all about.

 

I'm all for HM LI difficulty, but there are alot of players struggling with it. For them the reward needs to equal the effort, and considering it is more difficult than HM EV & KP I see no reason why the rewards shouldnt reflect as such.

 

But it seems that you and I will have to agree to disagree, i've seen what mechanics that exclude the "average" player can do to subscriptions and I dont want that to happen here. Swtors let down in it's first 6 months has been different to Cataclysm as it lacked alot of fundamental components from other MMO's that players have come to expect. And for raiders it's operations lacked any real sense of challenge until recently

Edited by NoxiousAlby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add my voice to the pot.

 

I'm a new mmo player (been playing RPGs/other pc games for 25 years but never an mmo until TOR). I was drawn in as a Star Wars fan. I was convinced to try this because it was solo-friendly and I had no interest in joining a guild, doing endgame content or anything. My plan was to do the storyline quests for the 8 classes and stop.

 

So.

 

I've somehow changed into someone who likes the endgame content, HM FPs and the raid progression. I've been pugging HMFPs since 1.3 dropped and having a blast meeting new people etc, etc. etc.

 

I personally find HM LI very difficult and have not yet made it past the first boss.

 

However, I have no desire to have the difficulty adjusted in any way. I'm looking forward to getting my Columi MH when I eventually finish it. And as a Commando dps, I'll be very happy when that happens. pew pew pew

 

Instead, I will read strategies for fighting that boss, learn my class better, become a better player. Sooner or later I will win and feel like I accomplished something, and continue on with harder ops.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

Stick with it Jeff, you'll get there in the end and yes pve end game content can be alot of fun. I suggest you join the SM EV & KP dungeon finder if you have the time to sit and play for an hour or 2. it will help gear your character faster and once you learn the fights (which are all easier than HM LI) do the HM versions. It will gear you in Rakata gear much faster and help with HM LI.

 

I just wish that for players like yourself who are determined and putting in the effort to try and clear this new content the rewards were more inline with current difficulty in the game. As I said above you will gear your character faster, easier, and more efficiently pugging HM EV & KP than you would HM LI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your being a little simplistic, so lets put things in perspective.

If we look at successfull MMO's in terms of subscription rates WOTLK would be amongst one of the highest subscribed games. Although the Heroic Instances were easy and provided little challenge for experienced players most were runnable in 30min or less.

If we go further back in time to vanilla wow or TBC heroic 4 mans were generally run by raiders as part of gearing your characters for entry level raids.

Over the years (7 in wow) the mentallity of end game content has changed, players that once never participated have become avid participants with the introduction of the dungeon finder. Non raiding players now expect to be able to complete flashpoints/instances as part of their end game content, it's what they are paying for. As for wiping mistakes will always be costly, over the years i've seen more wipes on trash accidently pulled or incorrectly cc'd than n boss fights. So no, I wouldnt expect any HM flashpoint to be wipe free in terms of mechanics.

Given the addition of campiagn tier set Rakata is no longer the "top raid gear", so what I am saying is that HM flashpoints should be doable within 30-45 min (unless theres a wipe) by the average player in an unfamiliar group. Even if the flashpoints drops 1 piece of redundant raid gear, the first boss only drops Columi and is without doubt more difficult than any encounter other than those in HM EC.

 

Ideally the perfect situation would be to leave HM LI alone and not adjust the boss mechanics, but I would have each boss drop Rakata. Why? For those of us doing it weekly we dont need the drops so they are of no significance but for players struggling it will provide incentive to keep trying. Players having difficulty need to adopt a raiding mentality when running this flashpoint, unlike other flashpoints or instances (in other games) HM LI for some players will be a work in progress and for this reason I would have the rewards provide them with the dedication to keep trying.

 

 

-------

 

 

Sorry but that is old school mentality

Anyone playing MMO's for the past 7+ years have seen flashpoints/instances become easier as developers realised that they became end game content for some casuals and non raiders. Blizz tried to reverse the trend in Cataclysm and we all know how successfull that was with subs bleeding to an all time low within the first 3-6 months. For players unwilling to dedicate time to a specific raiding schedule and hours each week flashpoints will always be their game of choice. Many have families and jobs, they just want to come home & do a few runs before logging off, for this reason flashpoints need to be easier than raids. As raids should provide a couple of months worth of dedication and keep players occupied between content.

 

 

If there is one thing I have learnt over the years is that players who dont raid never will, some players dont want to join a random 8 man experience even if they have the time. And honestly who can blame them? Posters bandy around terms like "bads" and have an intolerance towards others. We see it everyday in general chat regardless of what games you play. For this reason players who run 4 man content will only ever run 4 man content and the assumption that heroics or HM is a prerequisite to raiding is false.

Considering we have had no new T1 content since Dec 2011 I would expect many dedicated 4 man players would have tried to run the T2 flashpoints it's natural progression. Some have enjoyed it, others have become disillusioned and frustrated.

 

 

If you had bothered following my conversation you would find I supported leaving it alone, but was in favour of improving the reward to provide greater incentive to players struggling with it. Really make it worth their while comming back week after week just to try and down 1 boss at a time.

 

I would like to highlight that HM LI is easily doable in 30 minutes without a wipe. The key here is the "without a wipe" bit. Most people's complaints relate to the large period of time spent in the FP due to wipes.

 

Honestly, most of the mechanics (Sav-Rak aside) are: don't stand in the fire and interupt the big attack. They aren't the toughest, the difficulty comes from combining them both and making >50% of the battlefield fire. Lorrick has fun mechanics with his stachel charges and Sav-Rak is really awesome and unique.

 

Loot is fine. You get Rakata chest (otherwise from HM Soa) and Columi mainhand (otherwise from SM Karagga). TWO(!) pieces of equipment you could only otherwise get from Ops. You also get 2 more Columi pieces. Now time investment to get those 3 Columi and 1 Rakata piece would be 1 LI run (30-45 mins) OR 1 HM EV run, 1 SM KP run and 2 HM FP runs.Total time: 3-5 hours. LI HM COULD stand to drop Columi comms instead of Tionese crystals but that is the ONLY change that should be considered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stick with it Jeff, you'll get there in the end and yes pve end game content can be alot of fun. I suggest you join the SM EV & KP dungeon finder if you have the time to sit and play for an hour or 2. it will help gear your character faster and once you learn the fights (which are all easier than HM LI) do the HM versions. It will gear you in Rakata gear much faster and help with HM LI.

 

I just wish that for players like yourself who are determined and putting in the effort to try and clear this new content the rewards were more inline with current difficulty in the game. As I said above you will gear your character faster, easier, and more efficiently pugging HM EV & KP than you would HM LI.

 

You would also gear your character faster running SM Ops than Tier 1 HM FPs. That point is not relevant to HM LI rewards.

 

Ops rewards: 8 players, 2 hours, 10 "tier" pieces.

FP: 4 players, 30-45 minutes, 1 "tier" piece.

 

Net reward per player per hour: Op 0.625. FP 0.5.

 

I'm only including the top tier available for that run, Columi or Rakata as applicable, and not factoring in lower tier gear, where Ops step ahead even further.

 

Anyway, LI is inline with other FP/Ops with the rewards, it just has a steeper learning curve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My gear is fine with the exception of Columi MH. Currently I'm using a Tionese one with Columi mods -- want that 24 barrel.

 

I know I can get it by either KP Story end boss or LI HM end boss. I'm working through both, so whichever comes first. I will still fully finish both regardless. The gear reward is nice, but overcoming difficult content is part of the reason I play the end game at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add my voice to the pot.

 

I'm a new mmo player (been playing RPGs/other pc games for 25 years but never an mmo until TOR). I was drawn in as a Star Wars fan. I was convinced to try this because it was solo-friendly and I had no interest in joining a guild, doing endgame content or anything. My plan was to do the storyline quests for the 8 classes and stop.

 

So.

 

I've somehow changed into someone who likes the endgame content, HM FPs and the raid progression. I've been pugging HMFPs since 1.3 dropped and having a blast meeting new people etc, etc. etc.

 

I personally find HM LI very difficult and have not yet made it past the first boss.

 

However, I have no desire to have the difficulty adjusted in any way. I'm looking forward to getting my Columi MH when I eventually finish it. And as a Commando dps, I'll be very happy when that happens. pew pew pew

 

Instead, I will read strategies for fighting that boss, learn my class better, become a better player. Sooner or later I will win and feel like I accomplished something, and continue on with harder ops.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

hey Jeff, SWTOR is also my first MMO, and I only bought it because I want to play through the story (myself being a KotOR fan). But sadly, playing MMO means you have to get better with your class, become a better "player", join a guild bla bla bla, if you want to do the hard, challenging stuff.

 

If you want to just play for the story, you should play other classes, and play flashpoints and operations in story mode. If you want to actually beat Lost Island hardmode, then you are not playing just for the story anymore. You said it yourself, you don't want to do end game content, and yet, you are "complaining" about one of the end game contents being too hard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You would also gear your character faster running SM Ops than Tier 1 HM FPs. That point is not relevant to HM LI rewards.

 

Ops rewards: 8 players, 2 hours, 10 "tier" pieces.

FP: 4 players, 30-45 minutes, 1 "tier" piece.

 

Net reward per player per hour: Op 0.625. FP 0.5.

 

I'm only including the top tier available for that run, Columi or Rakata as applicable, and not factoring in lower tier gear, where Ops step ahead even further.

 

Anyway, LI is inline with other FP/Ops with the rewards, it just has a steeper learning curve.

 

you need to take in consideration that Lost island flashpoint could be chain, while hard mode SOA and normal Toth and Zorn (the other source of rakata chest) can only be killed once a week.

 

This make the lost island the most efficient method to specifically farm the rakata chest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hey Jeff, SWTOR is also my first MMO, and I only bought it because I want to play through the story (myself being a KotOR fan). But sadly, playing MMO means you have to get better with your class, become a better "player", join a guild bla bla bla, if you want to do the hard, challenging stuff.

 

If you want to just play for the story, you should play other classes, and play flashpoints and operations in story mode. If you want to actually beat Lost Island hardmode, then you are not playing just for the story anymore. You said it yourself, you don't want to do end game content, and yet, you are "complaining" about one of the end game contents being too hard.

You misunderstood my post.

 

When I first started TOR, I had no intention of doing end-game content. However, I've since found it fun and I really like doing it and am having a great time.

 

I'm not "complaining" that LI is too hard. I'm saying that I haven't yet mastered it.

 

I've also stated that I'm actively working on getting better so that I can complete it.

 

I like Lost Island like it is just fine -- don't make it any easier.

 

I should also note that I am still doing the story of all 8 classes. I do endgame with my group when they're available, and run my other characters when they're not. I get the best of both worlds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you need to take in consideration that Lost island flashpoint could be chain, while hard mode SOA and normal Toth and Zorn (the other source of rakata chest) can only be killed once a week.

 

This make the lost island the most efficient method to specifically farm the rakata chest.

 

I'm confused what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that it should be easier because it can be chained? Or that the rewards are fine? Or that it should have a lockout?

 

I was trying to highlight that the rewards are in line with other flash points and don't need to be increased (aside from Columi comms). Similarly that it is sufficiently difficult and should not be changed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LI is aimed at people who have finished the first 2 Ops (EV and KP). If you are not at that level then you will find it much harder. Also pugging it makes it even harder, because you get a lot of people who can't play in the group finder.

 

But don't compare the difficulty of SWTOR to WOW. WOW is notoriously easy (literally 99% of the content is window licking easy). Most MMORPGs are around swtor's level of difficulty, or harder.

Edited by NasherUK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

LI is aimed at people who have finished the first 2 Ops (EV and KP). If you are not at that level then you will find it much harder. Also pugging it makes it even harder, because you get a lot of people who can't play in the group finder.

 

But don't compare the difficulty of SWTOR to WOW. WOW is notoriously easy (literally 99% of the content is window licking easy). Most MMORPGs are around swtor's level of difficulty, or harder.

 

Current WoW. "Ancient" WoW raiding and instances were much harder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Current WoW. "Ancient" WoW raiding and instances were much harder.

 

They were back in TBC, the top tier stuff was probably the hardest content ever in wow. But mid way through WOTLK they decided that chimps were their new target audience and made everything stupidly easy. In the most recent expansion it was just a joke. We used to get eachother killed for laughs and stuff faceroll it on 25man heroic :/

Edited by NasherUK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm confused what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that it should be easier because it can be chained? Or that the rewards are fine? Or that it should have a lockout?

 

I was trying to highlight that the rewards are in line with other flash points and don't need to be increased (aside from Columi comms). Similarly that it is sufficiently difficult and should not be changed.

 

Your statement that the rewards are in line with the other flashpoints but what you fail to recognize is that the level of difficulty is not.

 

Regardless how many people believe the rewards are fine as they are I will never understand how the bosses for HM EV & KP as well as the first 3 bosses in SM EC are easier than HM LI and yet the rewards are greater. It makes absolutely no sense to me how more challenging content offers lesser reward, and for those coming late to the discussion i'm happy with the way HM LI is, just not the rewards.

You also mentioned earlier about time invested, my raid group does HM EV & KP in 80min each and thats taking the time to masterloot & /roll for gear. Take away another 20min for time wasted distributing loot and both raids are easily doable in an hour each if you chain pull and are on top of your game.

Edited by NoxiousAlby
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...