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http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

Nov 16, 2012

 

So, let me get this straight. A 237 page thread, and "lots of people wanting this option", is all built on an 18 month old interview OUTSIDE of the SWTOR site? Really? This is the compelling evidence that makes Advanced Class swapping a sure thing in the SWTOR game environment?

 

An 18 month old interview, and no mention before, or after, and no comment in this thread for 237 pages by Eric or any other member of his team.

 

Excuse me for just a moment.

 

If that's your opinion on the matter I can't help but wonder why you have felt compelled to argue the point with me. Is it just the need to belittle the opinions of those who don't hold your view? Really, if you weren't that bothered wouldn't it have been far easier just to say 'Not going to happen, ever.' and move on?

 

Eric Musco is the community manager and I feel he does an amazing job considering the levels of abuse such positions tend to have hurled at them by the ravening hordes of fans.

 

The importance of the quote is because it was made by Damion Schubert, the Lead Designer. Someone who has intimate knowledge of the behind the scene development of the game and an actual say in how features are implemented.

 

The ambiguity of the time required to deliver one aspect mentioned in the quote while not delivering the other does not imply it has been abandoned completely.

 

The lack of response is not surprising considering the Devs rarely pass comment on issues they have commented on in the past. Named Devs only tend to post when commenting about features that are in the immediate future such as the roadmap posts, or PTS patches.

Edited by Vhaegrant
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If that's your opinion on the matter I can't help but wonder why you have felt compelled to argue the point with me. Is it just the need to belittle the opinions of those who don't hold your view? Really, if you weren't that bothered wouldn't it have been far easier just to say 'Not going to happen, ever.' and move on?

 

I did say that, and then people wanted to argue that it WOULD. So, I indulged in the discussion, only to find out people are clinging to this notion like a passenger to a Titanic life-raft, only to find out the last (and ONLY) word on it was 18 months ago, and was not even made here on this site. I am all for discussing a possible feature, but when you fight tooth and nail to argue a standpoint that pretty much DIED 18 months ago, I have to wonder why you don't just get out more. Fighting for something mentioned several times, or even recently (a month or so ago) is one thing, but at this point it's really just kinda sad.

Edited by Superman_AZ
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Errr....comments made by devs that were likely terminated for almost running the game into the ground are used as proof on the anti AC change side. Not a good idea to throw stones.

 

I think using any dev comment from more than a year ago is foolish, pro and con....which means there are no dev comments. The most recent comment, one and a half years ago from an actual new staff dev indicated he "believed" or "expected" (cant remember which) this would happen eventually. Sounds more like an opinion than confirmation.

 

As does the confused comments from the prior dev staff...frankly it seemed they couldnt figure out HOW they felt about the issue....especially DE, who contradicted himself on a number of occasions with respect to this subject.

 

All of the statements against come from devs that are no longer with the company, and most if not all of them said things that are no longer true in any sense of the word.

 

So both are suspect IMO.

 

I think its ok to express your support or lack thereof of AC change. I think it's a bit silly, however, to argue and use flimsy comments from the past on both sides of the fence to support that argument.

 

Nothing supports either side. It is complete conjecture, period.

Edited by LordArtemis
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The Devs aren't given to reiterating previous answers they have given. Or else they'd never escape the clutches of the forums. The last official statement of their position on AC swapping is well documented in this thread.

 

 

The answer remains what it has been from the last statement. Probably in the future. The only way it becomes an obvious 'No' is if a Dev makes an unambiguously worded statement, along the lines of, 'AC swapping will never be added as a feature to SWTOR'. Even then, I would hope any Dev engaged in the ongoing development cycle of a game as malleable as an MMO understands the limits of the word 'never'.

 

I would see it far more likely to be a statement along the lines of...'AC swapping is not a feature we would envisage having to implement in the foreseeable future. While it remains a possibility and a feature we understand many players may like to take advantage of we are focusing at this time on adding more features that everyone wants.'

 

We all know about that statement from over a year ago and we all know that the phrase used was "likely happen eventually".

 

I'm curious as to your justification for holding that statement in such high regard as "the last word from the devs" on class changing, but want to completely dismiss the statements made by the devs regarding AC's being fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASSES and being treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves. Those statements have not been contradicted since they were made, making them the "last word from the devs" regarding AC's being different classes.

 

It seems to me that the biggest difference is that the former fits in with your desire to see class changes implemented and the latter does not.

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We all know about that statement from over a year ago and we all know that the phrase used was "likely happen eventually".

 

I'm curious as to your justification for holding that statement in such high regard as "the last word from the devs" on class changing, but want to completely dismiss the statements made by the devs regarding AC's being fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASSES and being treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves. Those statements have not been contradicted since they were made, making them the "last word from the devs" regarding AC's being different classes.

 

It seems to me that the biggest difference is that the former fits in with your desire to see class changes implemented and the latter does not.

 

Ratajack, again, you make this claim but the very statement made by DE was contradicted...by DE....both 2 months prior and 6 months after he made them. Proof was posted in this thread.

 

He first said they were "roles".....then "fundamentally different class designs"....then "specializations within your class". He even said "they were not designed to be classes in the classic sense" when asked why they listed only 8 classes on the page though he very clearly indicated that "different class designs" was the design intent 7 months prior.

 

He was giving his opinion. Just like the dev 18 months ago. That is all we have gotten is opinion it seems.

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I find myself drawn to post in this thread again. LordArtemis, your attempts to calm the waters on this discussion have always impressed me. :)

 

While it is completely understandable to try and relate the way classes are treated in TOR to other games, I think that it will ultimately fall down, because what is being done in this game is different.

 

Base Class

Advanced Class

Spec

 

Were done a particular way in this game. There are similarities to other games, but they are not the same. For examples:

 

1. When you see a list of people on fleet, 99% of the time you see advanced class.

2. But when you unlock a legacy chapter 2 boost, it only applies to the base class.

 

Sometimes the Base Class is like a "Class" in other games, and sometimes an Advanced Class is like a "Class" in other games. Trying to argue "Base Class is your Class" and "Advanced Class is your Class" is ultimately pointless. Because the unmodified word "Class" only applies to other games.

 

I think it's unlikely that we'll see an AC respec and I don't think it would be particularly good for the game. But then again, I didn't think we'd see PvE bolster either, yet go read the 2.8 PTS patch notes. :rolleyes:

 

But arguing about whether the Advanced Class is a class or the Base Class is a class? That seems a largely pointless part of the AC respec argument.

 

NEITHER are a "class".

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Ratajack, again, you make this claim but the very statement made by DE was contradicted...by DE....both 2 months prior and 6 months after he made them. Proof was posted in this thread.

 

He first said they were "roles".....then "fundamentally different class designs"....then "specializations within your class". He even said "they were not designed to be classes in the classic sense" when asked why they listed only 8 classes on the page though he very clearly indicated that "different class designs" was the design intent 7 months prior.

 

He was giving his opinion. Just like the dev 18 months ago. That is all we have gotten is opinion it seems.

 

My only point in that post was that those statements have as much (or as little) validity as the one from well over a year ago.

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I did say that, and then people wanted to argue that it WOULD. So, I indulged in the discussion, only to find out people are clinging to this notion like a passenger to a Titanic life-raft, only to find out the last (and ONLY) word on it was 18 months ago, and was not even made here on this site. I am all for discussing a possible feature, but when you fight tooth and nail to argue a standpoint that pretty much DIED 18 months ago, I have to wonder why you don't just get out more. Fighting for something mentioned several times, or even recently (a month or so ago) is one thing, but at this point it's really just kinda sad.

 

So it's just needing to have the last say on the matter ;)

 

The desire to see a feature implemented shouldn't have a sell by date. I'm more interested in the merits of why people seem to argue against a feature that only increases player choices. I'm sure if I looked in the threads there are plenty of older requests still being recycled that were never dignified in the first place by a developer comment. Dulfy is probably the best source for SWTOR info away from the official site.

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I find myself drawn to post in this thread again. LordArtemis, your attempts to calm the waters on this discussion have always impressed me. :)

 

While it is completely understandable to try and relate the way classes are treated in TOR to other games, I think that it will ultimately fall down, because what is being done in this game is different.

 

Base Class

Advanced Class

Spec

 

Were done a particular way in this game. There are similarities to other games, but they are not the same. For examples:

 

1. When you see a list of people on fleet, 99% of the time you see advanced class.

2. But when you unlock a legacy chapter 2 boost, it only applies to the base class.

 

Sometimes the Base Class is like a "Class" in other games, and sometimes an Advanced Class is like a "Class" in other games. Trying to argue "Base Class is your Class" and "Advanced Class is your Class" is ultimately pointless. Because the unmodified word "Class" only applies to other games.

 

I think it's unlikely that we'll see an AC respec and I don't think it would be particularly good for the game. But then again, I didn't think we'd see PvE bolster either, yet go read the 2.8 PTS patch notes. :rolleyes:

 

But arguing about whether the Advanced Class is a class or the Base Class is a class? That seems a largely pointless part of the AC respec argument.

 

NEITHER are a "class".

 

When you see a list of people on the fleet you see their CLASS. 99% of the time that CLASS happens to be one of the various AC's.

 

When you unlock the chapter 2 buff, the same buff is unlocked for both AC's, true. This is,IMO only, similar to not having to have 16 different story lines. The devs were able to create 4 buffs that do not overlap and mirror them, rather than having to create 8 buffs per faction and either water those buffs down, possibly risk overlapping buffs or even possibly making some buffs more powerful than others.

 

 

I have said before, that it would have been much clearer if they had designed it so that:

 

Race

Gender

Story

Class

Customization

 

Enter world

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The devs were able to create 4 buffs that do not overlap and mirror them, rather than having to create 8 buffs per faction and either water those buffs down, possibly risk overlapping buffs or even possibly making some buffs more powerful than others.

OR, (and this is the point I'm trying to make), they weren't trying to make 8 classes, and they weren't trying to make 16 classes, they were trying to do something different. Which is 8 base classes each with 2 advanced classes.

 

It is okay that this is different. It's not necessary to make either of these to things the same as a class in other games.

 

The arguments against AC respec are still valid without dwelling on "what is a class".

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I'm curious as to your justification for holding that statement in such high regard as "the last word from the devs" on class changing, but want to completely dismiss the statements made by the devs regarding AC's being fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASSES and being treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves. Those statements have not been contradicted since they were made, making them the "last word from the devs" regarding AC's being different classes.

My justification is largely based on the fact that Damion Schubert is the lead system designer for SWTOR with a cv filled with MMO experience. Whereas Daniel Erickson was the lead writer, wonderful writer that he may be the presentation given by DS at the GDC ( http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016553/Behind-the-Curtain-Using-MMO )suggests the difficulties writers have to overcome when it comes to integrating their ideas into a game. Especially if they've never been near an MMO before.

Lord Artemis has far better recollection about DE's deviations from his own definition of what class and advanced class was meant to be.

Both quotes were in answer to a direct question about AC swapping. Given the chronological time frame, more recent is normally considered more relevant.

 

It seems to me that the biggest difference is that the former fits in with your desire to see class changes implemented and the latter does not.

Is that not exactly the same as you're using them?

Despite the fact the Damion Schubert quote is more recent, factors in the change from a subscription only model to hybrid, and is actually made by someone still working on the game. Sure, I guess both quotes could be seen as about as relevant as each other :rolleyes:

Edited by Vhaegrant
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My only point in that post was that those statements have as much (or as little) validity as the one from well over a year ago.

 

Fair enough. I absolutely agree, and naturally I also agree with you that AC is a class...but my reason may be different.

 

To me it feels like a class. It feels like a new unique class to be more exact.

 

The flaw is in the design. Instead of having, say, you choose your AC at character creation (which they could have done, since both ACs for a particular class have the same base abilities and story) they decided to push it to level 10.

 

IMO this was the part of the design that confused the issue the most. To my knowledge there isnt a single game on the market today that starts you at level 10 when creating a new character, and all games have you choose your class OR role at creation. Many games have advanced roles or specializations you take on later (like holy or shadow priest) or the class transforms into something new (like in many original FF games, where you could become a completely new class).

 

Very few if any stack a class inside a class, unless that class is a crafting class.

 

As pointed out before, the issue may be how classes are defined in this game, or rather the lack of definition. Perhaps Bioware did not understand just how important our role in the universe would be to us.

 

I think it was something like "lets add more variety to the classes since we cant afford more base storylines, and we will call them advanced classes".

 

Like many of the decisions made during the design of this game little to no thought was given to the repercussions. They simply did not understand the most basic tenements of MMO design IMO.

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I'm more interested in the merits of why people seem to argue against a feature that only increases player choices.

 

I could comment to this, but only from my personal perspective. I speak only for me.

 

I want my choice to be meaningful. My role in the game world is important to me...I want to feel heroic, powerful, and really LIVE my role choice. It is my profession, my ultimate skill set...it defines me.

 

Allowing a change of that role would trivialize the choice for me. It would not longer as special or meaningful to me as it once was.

 

I will not be happy if this is implemented, but naturally I will not oppose something that the majority wants....if this is what the majority wants I will live with it. But if someone asks my opinion I give it.

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So it's just needing to have the last say on the matter ;)

 

The desire to see a feature implemented shouldn't have a sell by date. I'm more interested in the merits of why people seem to argue against a feature that only increases player choices. I'm sure if I looked in the threads there are plenty of older requests still being recycled that were never dignified in the first place by a developer comment. Dulfy is probably the best source for SWTOR info away from the official site.

 

Having dual spec or tri spec would increase peoples options. Advanced class swapping is more like saying hey I am bored with my mage and now I want a warlock. Advanced classes aren't even close to resembling one another in some cases. However this is just an option to change the class of your character for a cost and getting a whole new class without ever learning the difference between it and the other AC.

 

also it is not about getting the last word or about being right it's about discussing an idea that was mentioned 18 months ago one time for a brief moment in an interview on another site. Since then the only people interested in this particular feature are the vocal minority in this thread. They need to accept the fact that the person who gave the interview no longer gives a rat's behind about this particular feature otherwise he would have stepped in here in the last 237 pages and said something.

Edited by Superman_AZ
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I could find them all, but here are some of the more confusing ones...most folks are familiar with the recent "likely to happen" and the less recent "fundamentally different class designs", so those are not included.

 

DEs views on class and advanced class from interviews, events and blog posts.

 

Each of the advanced classes is a full, flexible class with various trees that allow specialization.

 

but he also said this...

Inquisitor is your class, that is the class you have for the entire storyline. Your advanced class offers you a specialized set of ability trees and determines the weapon you use.

 

and this....

At one time we wanted 16 classes to provide better balance in combat, but in the end the game was designed with only 8 classes to choose from.

 

Not to mention comments like....

 

....every class has their own story

...but your class is defined by your individual story

...8 class choices that define your game experience

 

Confusing. It seems the conversation he was having determined how HE viewed ACs...he was rather loosy goosy about it, they all were IMO.

 

This is exactly why just about anything DE said, IMO, about the game should be dismissed at this point. He was simply offering his opinion, which seemed to change quite often. Many of them did.

 

AND THIS....from Georg Zoeller just makes it more confusing.

[W]e wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class.

 

As I indicated. The more they talked about it IMO the more confusing it got.

Edited by LordArtemis
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I could comment to this, but only from my personal perspective. I speak only for me.

Duly noted :)

 

I want my choice to be meaningful. My role in the game world is important to me...I want to feel heroic, powerful, and really LIVE my role choice. It is my profession, my ultimate skill set...it defines me.

Your role (meleeDPS/ rangedDPS/ Tank/ Heal) is ultimately defined by your specialisation. In game mechanics the defining feature of Advanced Class is to isolate base healing and tanking abilities, and to reduce role selection to a selection of 3.

 

Allowing a change of that role would trivialize the choice for me. It would not longer as special or meaningful to me as it once was.

But you can already change that role. In fact, if you are a subscriber, have purchased field respecialisation, and play an Advanced Class limited to roles that use the same gear (for example Sorcerer, rangedDPS <-> Heal), you can change your role at no cost, at nearly any time (not in WZs if I recall), and without having to swap out gear (if you are a perfectionist you might, but accuracy, power, surge, crit all get the job done for these two)

 

I will not be happy if this is implemented, but naturally I will not oppose something that the majority wants....if this is what the majority wants I will live with it. But if someone asks my opinion I give it.

Opinion noted :)

 

[edit: I should clarify, I'm not trying to shoot you down on a personal level, I really want to understand the argument from both sides.

For me the meaning in character comes from the root class, the appearance taken and the decisions made (LS/DS) as they level. The abilities are merely tools to get the job done.]

Edited by Vhaegrant
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Having dual spec or tri spec would increase peoples options. Advanced class swapping is more like saying hey I am bored with my mage and now I want a warlock. Advanced classes aren't even close to resembling one another in some cases. However this is just an option to change the class of your character for a cost and getting a whole new class without ever learning the difference between it and the other AC.

And yet they share the same class story, the same appearance customisations, the same companions, the same ship, the same class buff, the same heroic moment unlock, around half their abilities and one specialisation tree. No they are not similar in any way shape or form :rolleyes:

Advanced Class seperates out some abilities you would not want to be on the same character at the same time (self heals and ability to tank), and allows the PR machine to talk up the numbers a bit. But, behind the scenes at the level of design they are a subset of class, just a second stage of specialisation.

 

also it is not about getting the last word or about being right it's about discussing an idea that was mentioned 18 months ago one time for a brief moment in an interview on another site. Since then the only people interested in this particular feature are the vocal minority in this thread. They need to accept the fact that the person who gave the interview no longer gives a rat's behind about this particular feature otherwise he would have stepped in here in the last 237 pages and said something.

I really don't think you're qualified to speak on Damion Schubert's behalf, and I'm sure as Lead system designer he has far more to think about than a minor squabble between forumites. As to vocal minority, I think the for and against are both very vocal and also in the minority on this feature.

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I really don't think you're qualified to speak on Damion Schubert's behalf

 

I am NOT trying to speak on his behalf although it appears you are judging from your take on his conversation 18 months ago and no word on the matter since then. So until he steps in here and tells me I'm wrong and you're right I can assume anything I like.

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I am NOT trying to speak on his behalf although it appears you are judging from your take on his conversation 18 months ago and no word on the matter since then. So until he steps in here and tells me I'm wrong and you're right I can assume anything I like.

 

If you wish for your opinion to have weight in the discussion IMO it is best to temper your passion to prevent it from saturating your opinions with arrogance.

 

Point to facts instead of creating them, stand in the middle and try to point out that anything other than fact-point is opinion and you will find folks will take what you say to heart more often than not.

 

Naturally you have every right to post in any manner you wish that does not break forum rules. You don't need my approval, recognition or permission.

Edited by LordArtemis
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I am NOT trying to speak on his behalf although it appears you are judging from your take on his conversation 18 months ago and no word on the matter since then. So until he steps in here and tells me I'm wrong and you're right I can assume anything I like.

 

I'm just quoting what a Dev said, their tendency not to comment on issues they have already clarified, and that Named devs seldom comment on threads like this. We might get attention from a moderator, but that's mainly to keep things civil ;)

 

Feel free to assume though, I'm sure there's an old saying about that somewhere :cool:

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Point to facts instead of creating them, stand in the middle and try to point out that anything other than fact-point is opinion and you will find folks will take what you say to heart more often than not.

 

Fair enough, here are the facts:

 

On Nov 16, 2012, Damion Schubert spoke about Advanced class swapping in an interview:

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

On Dec 7, 2011, Steven Reid answered questions related to AC swapping, in a similar fashion:

http://r2-db.com/questions/200/can-you-change-your-advanced-class

 

Ironically, the source thread has since been deleted, but the screen capture still exists.

 

Another interesting fact is there have only been 47 threads, out of 147k asking for such a feature. None of those threads ever received an answer from BW.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=4891227

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

You'll note the bolded part above.

 

In another thread, BW opened a SECOND thread on the topic and never once commented in either thread:

Thread 2: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178253

Thread 1: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173707

 

Even Wikianswers acknowledges the permanency of your initial coice

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_you_change_your_advanced_class_in_Star_Wars_the_Old_Republic?#slide=2

 

That one really was just to lighten the mood.

 

http://www.guardianhq.com/swtor/stephen-reid-on-advanced-class-switching/

 

“Folks, please don’t overreact about the possibility of something happening in the future.

 

Advanced Class switching (or re-speccing, take your pick) was, at one point, potentially going to go into the game. Right now, it’s not in the game. It could potentially be added after launch. Like, frankly, anything else. To quote Georg “we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing”.

 

This thread is feedback. It’ll be taken into account by the developers, along with the usual metrics we look at. I’ll say this much – any sort of Advanced Class changing is not under discussion for launch, or even right after launch.

 

Absolutely anything in the game is potentially open to change in the future. That’s part of what an MMO is about. Your feedback on those changes is absolutely welcome, but just because we say that yes, something may potentially happen in the future… that doesn’t make it a certainty.”

So there you have it… We’ll most likely be seeing some form of Advanced Class switching post-launch. Though it isn’t guaranteed. I don’t think it’s too surprising for BioWare to admit it’s a possibility at some point post-launch – as anything can be changed to meet the demands of the game as it continues to mature.

 

Advanced Class switching certainly seems to be a feature for a more developed game, and it’s certainly something that I see them adding at some point in the future. I do think that it should not be ‘easy’, and switching should involve some cost and effort for the player. How do you feel about Advanced Class switching? Do you think it’s something that is necessary, and if included at all – should it be costly or as easy as the press of a button?

 

Let us know your thoughts!

 

After such a posting, the thread was eventually deleted as the lack of interest was also apparent in the responses on the site which retained the original quote.

 

http://www.askajedi.com/2011/07/21/sdcc-2011-bioware-base-q-a/

 

"Advanced Class change is in the game. 1st swap is cheap. After that it gets expensive"

 

Apparently, AC change made it all the way into the production line and was DROPPED at the last minute.

 

April 26, 2011

http://www.swtor-fever.com/swtor-discussions/respecs-in-swtor/

 

In another interview with TOR designer Georg Zoeller:

 

"Correct. The ability to respec your skill point distribution is still in the game.

 

Summary, since this is a confusing topic:

 

You can change your skill point distribution by paying credits at a vendor on your capital world. That has not changed.

 

You may or may not be able to change your Advanced Class, we haven’t decided on this one yet. If you can, the cost would be significant. That has not changed.

 

There is currently no plan to add dual spec (the ability to swap almost instantly between two skill point configurations) for launch. At this point, it seems not necessary for us, but we’re not opposed to add it at a later point / patch should we feel that the game would benefit from it.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Notice how in April, they say Maybe, in July they say yes, and then November they say "maybe later". It is obvious from the number of times the topic has been discussed, and the number of named BW staff interviews, that there was intent to add it to the game. So much, in fact, one interview actually said it was IN for launch, and later removed as a "maybe".

 

After 3 years, a half dozen interviews, and less than 50 thread topics on the subject, it would seem they have received their feedback. In most of the other threads, it was not a majority of rousing endorsements. I think this topic died a long time ago, and BW just doesn't want to step in and confess it. Do not take my word for it. Please look into all 47 threads and see how many times they responded. Even on a thread that hit level cap way back when, they even opened up a 2nd thread for it, and never once confirmed or denied any of it.

Edited by Superman_AZ
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@Superman_AZ, that was excellent work finding all of those quotes and bringing them together in one post.

 

Kudos for taking the extra time to do that.

 

Thank you. I wanted to be taken seriously, and I have LordArtemis to thank for the suggestion. :) Also, I love doing research.

Edited by Superman_AZ
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My justification is largely based on the fact that Damion Schubert is the lead system designer for SWTOR with a cv filled with MMO experience. Whereas Daniel Erickson was the lead writer, wonderful writer that he may be the presentation given by DS at the GDC ( http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016553/Behind-the-Curtain-Using-MMO )suggests the difficulties writers have to overcome when it comes to integrating their ideas into a game. Especially if they've never been near an MMO before.

Lord Artemis has far better recollection about DE's deviations from his own definition of what class and advanced class was meant to be.

Both quotes were in answer to a direct question about AC swapping. Given the chronological time frame, more recent is normally considered more relevant.

 

Is that not exactly the same as you're using them?

Despite the fact the Damion Schubert quote is more recent, factors in the change from a subscription only model to hybrid, and is actually made by someone still working on the game. Sure, I guess both quotes could be seen as about as relevant as each other :rolleyes:

 

What you aren't taking into account from the DS quote is:

a.) it was 18 months ago - a lot can happen in 18 months. 18 month, while "more recently" is not relevant.

b.) the very next sentence of the quote pertained to species change. Species change was added to the game within a few months of that quote. Species change wasn't even part of the question asked.

c.) the quote from DS was given in an interview about the game becoming F2P.

SWTOR F2P & Future content interview with Damion Schubert

 

I understand your point on the Devs remaining silent on this feature, I just don't see that as the truth. These devs are a lot more forthcoming with information than most games. We knew about Makeb months in advance, we knew about GSF months in advance, we know about Strongholds months in advance.

 

As I said before, there have been 2 Digital Expansions since that quote was made. Species change is a reality but AC respec is not. That should be your first indicator that it probably will not become a reality. If it could be done, they have had time to do it and it would be here by now.

 

And let's be honest, we don't know whether or not DS said something he shouldn't have said in the first place - which explains why it is never repeated in any interview, road map, pod cast, live cast, blog since.

 

Quite simply put, there is not a single shred of evidence that this item is even still on the Wall of Crazy. If it is, then it is obviously lower priority than reskinning what was ugly armor sets in the first place (ie putting lipstick on a pig).

 

I'm not completely against AC Respec. If it became a reality, I would in fact use it on my Mara and Sentinel. What I am diametrically opposed to, however, is any path to multiple AC respec. Which is to say you should only be allowed to change once per character. Ultimately, I just don't see this as an issue that warrants the amount of dev time it would take to do it properly.

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What you aren't taking into account from the DS quote is:

a.) it was 18 months ago - a lot can happen in 18 months. 18 month, while "more recently" is not relevant.

A lot certainly can happen in 18 months, an increase in level cap with 'Rise of the Hutt Cartel', the addition of an off rails team PVP space shooter, numerous cartel packs, return of the Rakghoul, a bounty event, several new dailies areas (Makeb, CZ-198 and Oricon) and the start of a new story chain in Forged Alliances. You make it sound like all Bioware Austin have been doing is twiddling their thumbs deciding whether they should or should not implement AC swap.I don't deny that it was some time ago, my point is that it was the last direct comment made on the subject by a dev that still works on the game.

b.) the very next sentence of the quote pertained to species change. Species change was added to the game within

a few months of that quote. Species change wasn't even part of the question asked.

Sequence in a reply does not denote roll out order. Species change was added as they had a product that pretty much required it (the Cathar).

c.) the quote from DS was given in an interview about the game becoming F2P.

And the game is still F2P. Not exactly sure how I overlooked this one?

 

I understand your point on the Devs remaining silent on this feature, I just don't see that as the truth. These devs are a lot more forthcoming with information than most games. We knew about Makeb months in advance, we knew about GSF months in advance, we know about Strongholds months in advance.

These are all large additions to the game that would have been placed in the roadmap and have considerable work to be done before release. I would imagine a good deal of information release is done as damage limitation from stuff that gets datamined, to try and limit expectations, and in the case of Player Housing to try and limit player drift towards other releases such as Wildstar.

 

As I said before, there have been 2 Digital Expansions since that quote was made. Species change is a reality but AC respec is not. That should be your first indicator that it probably will not become a reality. If it could be done, they have had time to do it and it would be here by now.

And once again, Species change had a product that would drive its uptake with the release of the Cathar.

 

And let's be honest, we don't know whether or not DS said something he shouldn't have said in the first place - which explains why it is never repeated in any interview, road map, pod cast, live cast, blog since.

I'm not sure if he's ever been asked the question directly again, I've watched quite a few of the Q&A sessions and devs don't tend to talk about stuff they've not been asked, it's considered bad form. However, I would love for any one going to the Vancouver Cantina event in the next week to put forward the question at that Q&A session ;) You know, if you're going and just happen to be reading this question :)

 

Quite simply put, there is not a single shred of evidence that this item is even still on the Wall of Crazy. If it is, then it is obviously lower priority than reskinning what was ugly armor sets in the first place (ie putting lipstick on a pig).

There's no evidence that anything's on the wall of crazy unless you work in Bioware Austin. Features tend to get rolled out with regards to an internal roadmap, that roadmap is probably built on a framework of what development time they have and what challenges the game may face from competition. The uptake for AC swap is probably too low to consider rolling it out as a stand alone feature, however, should SWTOR classes eventually gain new ACs I see the potential uptake increased.

There are various teams that work on various aspects of the game.

 

I'm not completely against AC Respec. If it became a reality, I would in fact use it on my Mara and Sentinel. What I am diametrically opposed to, however, is any path to multiple AC respec. Which is to say you should only be allowed to change once per character. Ultimately, I just don't see this as an issue that warrants the amount of dev time it would take to do it properly.

So in other words your idea of how to do it properly is to make it so restrictive as to make it unappealing and place in a one shot limitation that would result in far more calls to customer service than I hate to imagine.

 

It will be interesting to see in the long term whether the AC feature is introduced over the lifespan of SWTOR. I find it slightly amusing that there is such a rabid defence of the status quo when the feature wouldn't impact on ability balance.

 

I seem to recall voicing one of the few hard based cons of AC swapping. That it would take away from development resources.

 

I'll add another cause I try to see both sides of an argument and focus on the practical issues.

If AC swapping was allowed as you level, depending at which point you chose to swap a new player could potentially face a bill for new abilities that they couldn't cover. Leaving them with a lengthy period of grinding for credits with an underpowered character.

Edited by Vhaegrant
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