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Stuns, Roots, and Resolve

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Stuns, Roots, and Resolve

PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
01.29.2013 , 01:03 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kontraz View Post
I'm going to ignore your cries for nerfing classes - not due to disagreement, but because it is entirely off-topic

as for your suggestion of halfing the duration? The problem herein lies with this being an objective-based game. Yes, your suggested build seems great for 1v1 or even straight up deathmatch scenerios, but when capturing points largely relies on the ability to CC an opponent at an appropriate time, a mez lasting only 2 seconds is now worthless.
Its not off topic. You cannot call for suggestions to improve one mechanic of the game and ignore the other aspects that mechanic directly affects.

I like your suggest on roots and snares so don't think I am being critical as to me its crazy that a root to BioFail is not crowd control. A slow is not CC?

The TTK is going to be affected, especially when healers won't be able to be slowed or rooted once white barred. That is going to affect the objective based game. I would prefer a much longer TTK, larger maps, with longer respawn timers and less CC to the current PVP environment as the PVP lacks any effort at coordination. Its get 6-7 players and zerg vs. zerg. May the better zerg team win with CC making it so that if you get targeted your dead.

A CC mechanic like resolve should actually allow a person to have some time immune to CC's during combat and it should ideally fully wind down during combat.

CC in the game has no end as the immunity doesn't trigger soon enough to be impactful and doesn't stop you from being stuck in a position that has only one outcome. Then when it does trigger its often not impactful to the persons combat for very long and often is winding down out side of combat while you respawn and re-engage in combat.

I find the CC in this game to be out of control, abused and in my opinion exploited in pvp. Now I know that and have given up it ever getting fixed. In fact, its gotten worse every time they've tuned the game. At some point the loss of control for as long as you get CC'd will make me uninstall the game. It won't be bordom that causes me to leave but pure fustration over a mechanic that to me hasn't worked.

TOR has way to much CC. Almost every pvp spec has 1 or more abilities that snares/roots, a stuns, and some have 1 or more mezzes (if bubble stunner everyone can without even having a mez in the spec) and everyone can take nades to backfill a missing CC if they need to add a type to the rotation. Meanwhile you get 1 cc breaker to counter all that inbound CC. If your lucky your spec has a cc-immunity defensive ability. (Force Shroud, hunkerdown, etc.) Most of the CC-immunity is either really short or comes with lots of drawbacks as opposed to the CC which casting it has almost no negatives for the person like me.

I comes into a fight mezz 1 before the fight starts , mezzes another guy 30m away, pops a bubble stun if I got one for who I want to burst, use my stun and then knocks them down. I can then dissappear and mez someone out of combat if I want. All within nearly 5 seconds all without a shred of negativity to doing them and all enhancing my teams ability to control an objective while only whitebarring 1 guy who I don't have to knockdown if I don't want to. No one wants to break mezzes because if you use your CC breaker before getting whitebarred you are just setting yourself up to eat another mez. that can shut you out of the fight for a full 8 seconds which as a healer and is probably not good for the chance of winning the battle.

Its out of control and needs to be reworked. Frankly, i'd put in a penalty of some kind for using CC to the caster. reduced healing received, reduced dmg if you have a mez on someone and then stun someone else. Something that makes you at least think about using the stuns and I would most certainly make snares and roots respect a whitebar resolve.

I agree it shouldn't add to resolve given huttball and healers, but if you whitebar someone you don't get to then also root them in place. To me that is a clear design flaw.
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Kontraz's Avatar


Kontraz
01.29.2013 , 02:24 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by LarryRow View Post
Why was that melee white-barred? Who white-barred him? Why is that person no longer pressuring the melee? Is that person dead? Then the melee should be low health.

As usual this is nothing more than a Learn to Play issue.* At least, I hope asking you to learn to play is less onerous than overhauling the entire resolve system to deal with insane scenarios where two full health white-barred people meet for a 1v1.

Edit: clearly, like many ranged players, you want to be able to kite melee all day long while going pew pew. Try rolling a melee to gain some perspective.
Glad you think I'm a ranged player. Truth is I play both ranged and melee. I don't think one should have an absolute advantage over the other.

I'd almost be willing to turn the argument around and say that you prefer melee having said advantage of ranged, by allowing absolute counters to escape mechanics when at full resolve, while the reverse is not true.

I'm also fairly certain it isn't a l2p issue. You have a weak argument that only analyses one side of a given scenerio.

So you think the current resolve system is working great? You are in the minority. If not, but you still think that roots should still be able to effect a player with full resolve, you might not be in the minority, but there is a large player base that disagrees with you.




Here is an example: DPS Sage is at low health and gets force choked by a juggernaut. This white-bars the sage. Sage uses either his stun or mez, either of which would white bar the jugg. Sage uses force speed to gain distance. Jugg breaks CC and uses leap, rooting sage in place. Sage cannot use remaining CC or pushback to gain distance due to jugg being white barred.

Both players are whitebarred, one is able to root and effectively shut down the other's escape mechanic. Personally, I do not believe that should be so easily accomplished.

Kontraz's Avatar


Kontraz
01.29.2013 , 02:30 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
I agree it shouldn't add to resolve given huttball and healers, but if you whitebar someone you don't get to then also root them in place. To me that is a clear design flaw.
This was actually my original inspiration for the post. I was white-barred in huttball, attempted to use force speed and was rooted. Then rooted a second time. By the time the second root wore off, my resolve had diminished and I was again stunned.

The thing with roots is there is no drawback to the user. If everyone throws CCs on someone, it will fill their resolve bar. However, someone can be rooted repeatedly with absolutely no means of movement indefinitely.

I understand the purpose of snares and roots, and in most cases I understand that they are necessary for various classes to maintain either survivability or to keep a target within their range. However, my issue comes when a person has full resolve and roots/snares prevent any further effective action.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
01.29.2013 , 03:33 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Yeah I used to buy into the "slows/roots on the resolve bar would just make melee too OP", but now I'm not sure. Seems to me the melee classes have more of those things than the ranged classes.
Exactly Arch! They are the classes that abuse the **edit** out of it. How many roots/slows/mez's does your Commando have exactly?

I believe that EVERY movement impairing effect should build and obey the rules of Resolve. I absolutely abhor the abusive CC mechanics in this game.

Maybe the best solution would be a flat 75% damage reduction on all CC'd (not slowed) players. I believe the intention of most CC's in game were to provide "escape" options...instead, they're abused to effectively hold a player without any ability to fight back while they're pummeled to death.

Players whining about "strategy" will adapt to any new CC/Resolve system...the current state of stuns and CC's has cost more players and caused more frustration than the removal of Ilum did.
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PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
01.29.2013 , 04:13 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by LarryRow View Post
Why was that melee white-barred? Who white-barred him? Why is that person no longer pressuring the melee? Is that person dead? Then the melee should be low health.

As usual this is nothing more than a Learn to Play issue.* At least, I hope asking you to learn to play is less onerous than overhauling the entire resolve system to deal with insane scenarios where two full health white-barred people meet for a 1v1.

Edit: clearly, like many ranged players, you want to be able to kite melee all day long while going pew pew. Try rolling a melee to gain some perspective.



*See above.
That is not true. A root/snare has no penalty to cast it. If the counter to gain range is a knockback and it has a penalty (adds to resolve) that is an unequal equation. Now if ranged actually produced more burst for that penalty than the equation would balance.

However, the top burst specs (jug, mara, pyro) are close range. So you either buff the ranged dps damage or nerf the dmg of those melee classes so they under perform the ranged dps whose KB has a cost. Or you remove resolve adding to knockbacks.

I see a few ways to balance the equation and no one answer is better than the next to the player, but it should be about fairness and its current not equal footing.

Its not a L2P its a design flaw that favors the melee dps classes because of resolve.

You got higher dps for fighting at melee range and abilities to keep that player in range that don't affect resolve.
Ranged got lower dps outputs for making melee close range, but there counter to a melee player affects resolve.
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cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
01.29.2013 , 04:48 PM | #26
root shouldnt contribute to resolve, but full resolve should provide immunity to roots.

tho the entire resolve system needs a rework; its fundamentally flawed. i do like the idea in the OP for breaking stuns on the next damaging effect when you are white-barred. that might help considerably, since part of the problem is that you can be hit with a hard stun, become white-barred, and then have to watch as half of your CC immunity drains away and there is nothing you can do about it.


id also like to see the CC breaker ability provide 5s of immunity to stuns/physics effects, or reduce its coolown to a base of 60s. with the massive amount of CC in the game, one of those really needs to happen.
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foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
01.29.2013 , 05:46 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
root shouldnt contribute to resolve, but full resolve should provide immunity to roots.

tho the entire resolve system needs a rework; its fundamentally flawed....


id also like to see the CC breaker ability provide 5s of immunity to stuns/physics effects, or reduce its coolown to a base of 60s. with the massive amount of CC in the game, one of those really needs to happen.
yeah. there's no reason, under the current conditions of resolve, why roots shouldn't respect a white bar.

yes. resolve is flawed - not sure I'd go with fundamentally as the basic approach should be ok.

I do no like the breaker idea...not yet. but most importantly, it's a huge mistake to implement all of these changes. for instance, the way things stand now, white bars are relatively long in coming and short in duration, therefore, all roots should respect resolve. however, if you were to lengthen the duration of white-bar or shorten the time it takes to build resolve to a white bar, the whole issue of roots respecting resolve needs to be addressed again. messing around with the breaker cd requires the same reevaluation. it's pure stupidity to revamp multiple aspects/abilities and expect any one of them to work properly.

that's how all this bubble-smasheration happened. they took away the range on a few of the basic class stuns, prevented overlapping stuns from building resolve, turned a mezz into a stun that only builds the resolve of a mezz, made another melee class insanely easy to pull monster numbers (who now pop more bubbles resulting in more stun), and now there's twice as much stun in the game AND classes that weren't even a part of the problem (stealthers) get dragged into the muck, because now every melee is virtually guaranteed to eat stun bubbles. bravo, BW. bravo.

1 or 2 changes at a time. then reevaluate. I don't give a hoot whether you've tested them all together on a test server. that's not "real life"; that's not "live." if this experience tells us anything, isn't it at least that your tiny beta sample isn't an adequate pool for so many wide-ranging changes?
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sauerkraut's Avatar


sauerkraut
01.29.2013 , 07:32 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Kontraz View Post
So, there is constant debate on how resolve should work in relation to stuns and roots. Instead of having a thread compiled of OMG STUNZ ARE OOOPPPPP paired against SHUT UP NOOBZ, I'd actually like to see a constructive debate (probably won't happen) as to what changes you would like to see with the current resolve system and why, or why you think everything should stay as-is.


Personally, I think the current resolve system is fine, apart from the stun bubbles giving the appropriate resolve for a mez (this needs to be fixed).

As for roots and snares - no, I don't think they should BUILD resolve, but once a person is white-barred, they should be immune to those effects as well. Once a person is white-barred and use their CC breaker, it usually isn't so they can attack their enemy more, it is usually an escape mechanic so they can get out of the fight, as they are probably low on health after being CC'd to that extent. Being continuously rooted in place after using a CC breaker seems to defeat this purpose, in my opinion.
Right, now if you are one of those PvP rejects, who only can hit stunned opponents and could not survive without perma stun, of cours you like the current system. It was designed for players like you. However there are players who like to move in PvP, and actually do something other than stun, stun, stun, stun, and more stun.

Kontraz's Avatar


Kontraz
01.29.2013 , 09:31 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by sauerkraut View Post
Right, now if you are one of those PvP rejects, who only can hit stunned opponents and could not survive without perma stun, of cours you like the current system. It was designed for players like you. However there are players who like to move in PvP, and actually do something other than stun, stun, stun, stun, and more stun.
how constructive. if you just want to whine about your butthurt over getting killed by "PvP Rejects" there are dozens of threads for that. I'd like to actually see some constructive insight into how the community would like the resolve system dealt with.

ObscureKnight's Avatar


ObscureKnight
01.30.2013 , 02:28 AM | #30
I think one, and this is just one option, answer is to reset your break timer upon death. My greatest frustration is to be on my sage / sorc get marked, then burned down and i hit my break to run, oh wait force leap i am dead. Meh whatever. Now I respawn and come out of the gate only to get stunned again and this time I have no break, so all you can do is sit there until that damn timer goes away so you might have a shot just coming out of the gate. It is even worse when it is an opertive doing it to you.

No joke on voidstar I have two maras who lept up to me on the starting platform for the attackers, and as soon as I respawned they force choked me while i was inside the starting area, then tossed sabers and I was dead, only to repeat the same damn thing a few seconds later. That is ridiculous and makes one just want to quit that role if that is how things are.
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