So my guild and I have been talking about this over the past few weeks. We used to be a big pvp guild before 1.3 but since the changes none of us really want to play anymore, we just watch as either hackers run rampant or we lose constantly. Yet we all have alts and absolutely love the pvp in level 10-49 and will spend hours running warzones on our alts to the point several have stopped doing quests once their alt gets into the 40s because they are trying to AVOID level 50 pvp. So we spent some time trying to figure out the difference.

 

The biggest one we found was that from 10-49 gear really doesn't play a major difference. When we looked at the past expertise bonus we also saw expertise was a straight % buff. 20% increase to damage, healing, and reduction to damage whereas now the difference is significantly skewed in favor of damage based classes. In essence if you have a lot of expertise you kill faster but don't get as much of a healer or damage reduction. I'd like to see us go back to the straight line increase over the tiered system, at least try it on the PTS, so we could see if it helped make the games more fun again. Any other thoughts or observations?

Edited July 20, 2012 by Ronxz

I cannot stand 10-49 on my healers (have a 26 imp and 35 pub) mainly because when you call an inc the whole team leaves the node and you pretty much just swap nodes all game. All I see are maras/pts/snipers I think I have played one game this week with an actual tank who actually used his guard on me. Also my biggest issue is no one taunts or uses CC's or breaks them.

No idea. I think that lowbie warzones are immensely less fun. Far too dependent on the randomness of levels you get in your warzone. Time to kill is faaaaar less, partly because there are virtually no healers. People generally have absolutely no clue whatsoever how to play the warzones and make mistakes that are so dumb it's absolutely mind boggling.

 

I quite truthfully get so incredibly frustrated in lowbie warzones that it isn't fun in the slightest.

I think you are on to something here, I also loved PvP up to the point 50. Now dont get me wrong Im far from horrible and my 50 is geared with 50% BH 50% WH fully augmented.

 

I still find doing WZ while levelling is much more fun.

Expertise doesn't give you a bonus damage on other people with the same amount of expertise. If you have 1200 and they have 1200 it is the same as you both having 0.

 

This is why people hate 50 when they start if you have 1000 expertise and they have 1350 you are fighting someone as if you have 0 and they have 350.

 

<50 PvP is more fun for a lot of people because it is not even close to as competitive, you can do well without any real PvP skill or gear and you end up fighting level 14's with almost no talents.

Edited July 20, 2012 by kitsinni

I cannot stand 10-49 on my healers (have a 26 imp and 35 pub) mainly because when you call an inc the whole team leaves the node and you pretty much just swap nodes all game. All I see are maras/pts/snipers I think I have played one game this week with an actual tank who actually used his guard on me. Also my biggest issue is no one taunts or uses CC's or breaks them.

 

I love it on my Operative healer (lvl 24). You'd have to play more adaptive, you can't just sit your butt on a node, scream when people come then be dissapointed at your team.

 

Use your skills to heal them instead of solo guarding things and you'll win with pure muscle instead.

Edited July 20, 2012 by TapSumBatt

Expertise doesn't give you a bonus damage on other people with the same amount of expertise. If you have 1200 and they have 1200 it is the same as you both having 0.

 

This is why people hate 50 when they start if you have 1000 expertise and they have 1350 you are fighting someone as if you have 0 and they have 350.

 

<50 PvP is more fun for a lot of people because it is not even close to as competitive, you can do well without any real PvP skill or gear and you end up fighting level 14's with almost no talents.

 

The amount of damage reduced by expertise is less than the damage increase of the same number.

I love it on my Operative healer (lvl 24). You'd have to play more adaptive, you can't just sit your butt on a node, scream when people come then be dissapointed at your team.

 

Use your skills to heal them instead of solo guarding things and you'll win with pure muscle instead.

 

When I call out an inc Its not me that's defending I always keep my eyes on the other points as it bothers me when no one calls it out. I am not an idiot so I don't solo guard nodes as a healer I only do that on my main which is a tank.

The amount of damage reduced by expertise is less than the damage increase of the same number.

 

That's because it is necessary to have it be so in order for equal expertise ratings to balance out due to math.

 

I will try to illustrate it with some round numbers to make the concept simple.

 

First, you need to understand how expertise factors into combat. When player A attacks player B, it does this little formula:

 

Damage * (PlayerA Increase) * (PlayerB Reduction).

 

Now the increase and reduction are percentages. So, if player A has a 25% damage boost, and player B has a 20% reduction, the formula looks like this:

 

Damage * 1.25 * .8

 

Now if you think about it for a second, you'll realize that if we take a number and use exactly the same percentage to increase and decrease it, it won't wind up back at its original value, because once we've increased it, the same percentage of the new, higher number will be larger than the original increase.

 

For example, if we increase 100 by 25%, we get 125. Now, if we decrease 125 by 25%, we won't wind up back at 100 again, because 25% of 125 is more than 25% of 100. So,

 

100 *1.25 * .75 = 93.75

 

See? It doesn't go back to 100 because when we increase it, we are increasing it by 25, but when we decrease it, 25% of 125 is actually not 25 - it's 31.25.

 

The long and the short of it is that if we want equal values of expertise to balance out perfectly, then we need our increase and reduction values to be such that they meet this formula:

 

1 = (1+Increase/100) * (1-Reduction/100)

 

Thus, for example, 1284 expertise gives an damage boost of 23.85% and a reduction of 19.26%. If we use them to modify some damage number, say, 1000, we'll see that in the end, we end up back at 1000.

Most likely because you're facerolling people who are low levels. Everyone mistakes winning for fun, but gear up, find a good team, and you'll see what actual competition is like in rateds.

 

FYI if you don't know why healing gets less of a boost in PVP than damage and damage reduction it's because you're not supposed to keep 4 people alive in PVP, but you are required to do so in PVE.

 

Maybe do a quick search before opening new threads as there are probably 20 threads about this in the first 5 pages in the PVP forums.

Less coordinated stunlocking. That and that alone is what makes lowbie PvP more fun.

I think you will find the main reason for the surge in exploits hacks and similar problems plaguing 50 pvp and Warzones has a lot to do with it being Summer time and school out. Sorry, but maturity and all the little kiddies running around that have to be the "Best" I think tend to seek ways to actually be the "best" even though that they do not realize the impact it puts on the community and negative effects those exploits etc.. leave behind.

 

*shrugs*

When I call out an inc Its not me that's defending I always keep my eyes on the other points as it bothers me when no one calls it out. I am not an idiot so I don't solo guard nodes as a healer I only do that on my main which is a tank.

 

People aren't that perceptive. Most guys wont even notice a whisper on imperial fleet, let alone some capslock screams in the /ops channel during combat (mainly cus they are so used to whine maybe?).

 

Un-perceptive players are part of the game, find the one's who arent and you can basically win the game 2 people if that is the given level of competition you are up against.

I think it could be down to the grind. In 10-49 pvp, yes you have a grind for coms but the focus is more on xp and makes it worthwhile diving in.

 

lvl 50 is all about the gear grind. With this out of date format, is it any wonder players quit warzones because losing can yield small amounts of coms, winning only a max of 140 and if you join a wz a few minutes in - its a waste of time.

 

So the fun element has been removed.

 

All people want to do is kill the enemy and if Bioware looked at their beloved metrics they would see this. Remove the need to capture points and put the focus on kills and kill streams to win matches, remove the gear grind and bingo, you will have a winning pvp combination

I think it could be down to the grind. In 10-49 pvp, yes you have a grind for coms but the focus is more on xp and makes it worthwhile diving in.

 

lvl 50 is all about the gear grind. With this out of date format, is it any wonder players quit warzones because losing can yield small amounts of coms, winning only a max of 140 and if you join a wz a few minutes in - its a waste of time.

 

So the fun element has been removed.

 

All people want to do is kill the enemy and if Bioware looked at their beloved metrics they would see this. Remove the need to capture points and put the focus on kills and kill streams to win matches, remove the gear grind and bingo, you will have a winning pvp combination

 

You forgot the carrot - which usually is gear - which lead to what you just said.

 

How to solve that?

Less coordinated stunlocking. That and that alone is what makes lowbie PvP more fun.

 

I would have to strongly disagree.

 

First of all, there is no "coordinated" stun locking outside of rateds, apart from when you're trying to cap a node and you stun the guy coming to stop you - and that is solid strategic play that adds to the fun of things by making the matches remotely organized. In lowbie PvP, its just a bunch of people who have no idea what they're doing randomly killing stuff, and it's frankly stupid half the time.

 

Second, the other side of things is that as a result of this, what you see in lowbie PvP faaaaaar more than in the 50s is one or two guys getting a crush on you and spending the entire game focusing on you making it impossible for you to do anything, much less have fun. In the 50s brackets, people focus on objectives a lot more and (generally) try to make smart decisions about how they're spending their time. This means that you'll be the target sometimes - and in fact, if you're very good, you might be the target a lot, as it should be, but then you're very good so you can handle it.

 

In the lowbies, though, some level 45 marauder or two friends queing together while they are leveling might decide they want to get you on your level 26 sage, whether you're a target that makes sense or you're very good or not, and so you wind up spending the entire warzone frustrated as heck not being able to actually play. This is a particular problem for those people who are just looking for "fun" rather than more hardcore competition and aren't necessarily skilled enough to handle this kind of attention.

People say this in every gear progression mmo. I wonder why.

 

"Low level PvP is super fun! I can stomp casuals, re-rolls and level 11s! But now that I have to play people with gear it's horrible! I don't want to take the time to acquire the gear myself so I'll just complain on the forums!"

You forgot the carrot - which usually is gear - which lead to what you just said.

 

How to solve that?

 

You dont need a carrot. PvP in Star Wars Galaxies for example was a lot of fun until Pre-CU/NGE. No gear grind, no coms, nothing. It was pure fun raiding bases and having HUGE(over 100 players) battles outside major cities.

 

GW2 - again, no gear to grind. Developers need to be brave and shift more towards skill than gear to win pvp matches.

I would have to strongly disagree.

 

First of all, there is no "coordinated" stun locking outside of rateds, apart from when you're trying to cap a node and you stun the guy coming to stop you - and that is solid strategic play that adds to the fun of things by making the matches remotely organized. In lowbie PvP, its just a bunch of people who have no idea what they're doing randomly killing stuff, and it's frankly stupid half the time.

 

Second, the other side of things is that as a result of this, what you see in lowbie PvP faaaaaar more than in the 50s is one or two guys getting a crush on you and spending the entire game focusing on you making it impossible for you to do anything, much less have fun. In the 50s brackets, people focus on objectives a lot more and (generally) try to make smart decisions about how they're spending their time. This means that you'll be the target sometimes - and in fact, if you're very good, you might be the target a lot, as it should be, but then you're very good so you can handle it.

 

In the lowbies, though, some level 45 marauder or two friends queing together while they are leveling might decide they want to get you on your level 26 sage, whether you're a target that makes sense or you're very good or not, and so you wind up spending the entire warzone frustrated as heck not being able to actually play. This is a particular problem for those people who are just looking for "fun" rather than more hardcore competition and aren't necessarily skilled enough to handle this kind of attention.

 

Maybe not coordinated but there's "faaaaaaaaar" more CC flying around in level 50 Warzones as everyone has all their abilities and more or less everyone knows how Resolve works so they don't waste stuns.

 

This "targeting" thing very rarely happens in my experience. Premades focusing targets and coordinating CC - which happens a lot in the level 50 bracket - is far more frustrating than some lolrauder with his friend trying to hunt a specific target. EDIT: and to clarify, there's nothing wrong with premades working together and focusing targets, but with the amount of CC there is in this game and the way Resolve works, you spend more time stunlocked than not against a good premade. Even a four-man premade. And not being able to do anything at all is frustrating.

 

Also, there are lots of people in lowbie PvP who know what they are doing as at this point, most lowbies are alts anyway. The randomness of levels introduces a level of unpredictability which I personally enjoy.

 

If you're a competitive person, level 50 Warzones are better for you. If not, if you're just looking for some good clean fun, the lowbie brackets are the place to be.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Siorac

I Like them both...

 

I like the lowbie PVP because I tend to find a lot more 1 v 1 / fair fights... I don't usually find this in the 50 bracket since people there have learned to stick together and gank people rather than 1v1.

 

But I like the 50 bracket because they are a lot more competitive and fun to me. A couple of my all time favorite matches were against a really good pre-made in Huttball... we ended up losing those matches but I remember them being Epic and memorable fun times.

Maybe not coordinated but there's "faaaaaaaaar" more CC flying around in level 50 Warzones as everyone has all their abilities and more or less everyone knows how Resolve works so they don't waste stuns.

 

This "targeting" thing very rarely happens in my experience. Premades focusing targets and coordinating CC - which happens a lot in the level 50 bracket - is far more frustrating than some lolrauder with his friend trying to hunt a specific target.

 

Also, there are lots of people in lowbie PvP who know what they are doing as at this point, most lowbies are alts anyway. The randomness of levels introduces a level of unpredictability which I personally enjoy.

 

If you're a competitive person, level 50 Warzones are better for you. If not, if you're just looking for some good clean fun, the lowbie brackets are the place to be.

 

I'm a competitive person who is looking to have fun in competition, and in lowbie warzones the level of fun is just not there in my experience. I know that most lowbies are alts, but it doesn't stop them from making absurd decisions nonetheless.

 

As someone who has a lot of alts and plays a lot of lowbie and 50 warzones, I can say the difference is huge. People in the lowbie zone really by and large don't know what they're doing, even if they are alts. Why that is, I can't say. Maybe most or many of them are people who really just level their alts and don't do much 50 PvP, so they never really learned how to play quite correctly. In fact, I'm sure this is part of it. There are definitely those in the lowbies who you can tell know what they're doing, but there are definitely a larger group who just don't. The former may be alts of experienced 50 players, and the latter alts of those players who have 5 or 6 toons, all of them below 50, and like to level them slowly doing every quest, flashpoint and heroic over a long period of time.

 

I don't know, really. What I do know is that it's in the lowbie warzones that I die constantly because I'm the only player on Voidstar who tries to attack near the door while my entire team is fighting waaay back by the spawn. It's only in the lowbies where I see people run up the hill on Novarre and never go far enough to actually see or shoot inside the hutt at the enemy cappers. In level 50 warzones, people try to stop enemies from coming as you're capping on Alderaan, whereas in the lowbies they all join you in capping or shoot the guy someone has just CCed so he can stop you.

I think we'll just agree to disagree; fun is a subjective concept anyway.

Sub 50 is fun for a lot of reasons...

 

- generally less CC and much less co-ordinated cc

- less pre-mades

- always random groupings (sometimes you are all 40s, sometimes you are all under 20)

- no expertise

- classes that don't scale well after 50 are still good in sub 50

- lots of rewards that come quickly (levels, skills, cash, valor)

- much more of a level playing field than 50+ (less fighting someone with 350 more expertise and 14 purple augments)

- the occasional good hearted loss instead of constant "'I'm brilliant but my team let me down so we lost" whines

- Some good laughs when for example you have to tell someone that at level 12 they really should have decided on an advanced class by now!

 

It is, of course, still plagued by a lot of the 50+ general issues - people leaving when they see the team, people not having a clue how to play etc.

 

When WAR started the long slide to oblivion it was the first PVP bracket that people still played. I expect it will be the same with SWTOR, the similarities are striking.

I enjoy both, but perhaps for different reasoning.

 

At 50, I enjoy the teamwork and competitive nature. What I don't enjoy is the gear gap in competition. Granted, there has to be something, but it's just no fun being spanked by a fully aug'd WH team when yours is still working on getting their WH. This isn't a whine from laziness, it's just a note being made concerning competitive play. It's just an unfair and unfun matchup, like a highschool football team trying to take on an NFL team. Conversely, we're not seeking to beat the snot out of the special olympics kids either.

 

At the 10-49, I really enjoy the lack of gear requirement. I can excel quite well on my alts regardless of being 15 levels beyond my green gear and still do well and enjoy my time. It's not that I don't mind or think that I don't have to work towards something in this style of MMO, it's just something that seems enjoyable. It might be imbalanced though without the expertise simply because if tanks and healers (yes, plural) were in a match, dps might have a hard time unless they keep up on their gear. What I despise, is the very thing I enjoy having at 50, and that's teamwork. I get incredibly frustrated at pointless CC breaks when trying to cap; annoyed at teams of individuals despite attempts to unify them; and just overall bad play (35k dmg done from a vg/pt is just abysmal when their ONLY dpsing).

 

My thoughts on the issue? Simply gear. <49 is fun simply because you don't have to worry about massive gear discrepancy (only level, which is an issue unto itself). I don't exactly know how you solve the issue in an MMO like this, but on one hand, expertise kills it, and the other, it's the best option.

 

I think ultimately, this is why I'll be finding myself taking my PVP elsewhere and enjoying it come August 28th.

I really think people are way off base about the gear. There's a huge difference between someone in level appropriate purple gear and someone in greens a dozen levels below in the lowbie zones - in my experience, maybe even more than the difference between WH gear and Bm, or even perhaps recruit, to some degree in any case. In leveling my slinger, I was used to hitting 300k or so - even at lower levels - until all of a sudden, I was more consistrently hitting 150 - 200k. I realized that I had gear 10 levels to low, updated it, and went back to my 300k numbers. Yes, it is that important.

 

There's also all kinds of imbalance in the way this works out in keeping that gear up. Instead of simply going about acquiring your BM and then your WH pieces once, you really need to update your gear far more frequently to remain strong in lowbie warzones, and this gives a huge advantage to the individuals who have loads of money to do so. It also gives the advantage to certain classes, which tend to have more high end gear available on the market for whatever reason. For example, on 3 different servers I have consistently found that Cunning gear is in a tremendous amount more abundance than the other classes' - especially when it comes to earpiece and implants. Smugglers and Agents (who don't have enough alts to provide everything for themselves) simply have a gigantic edge in keeping up to date on gear in lowbie zones.

 

In the 50s bracket, there are 2 tiers of gear to worry about, which are completely free and require only an investment of time - and despite the fact that its a grind, it requires, from the experience of having leveled 11 characters now and geared 4 at level 50, far less time to actually get to a good gear level than it does to keep up to date through the lowbies. Heck, it takes about a week - and that's playing very sparingly - to get to full BM, and War Hero, even outside of rateds, is still easier to get to than keeping yourself full up to date on all of your low level stuff - that is, unless you have the money and luck to get the stuff off of the GTN every 5 levels or so.