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Non-Moddable "ops equivalent gear"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
Non-Moddable "ops equivalent gear"

KyaniteD's Avatar


KyaniteD
10.21.2015 , 03:03 AM | #11
I guess as long as weapons are not part of outfit designer, non-moddable "endgame" weapons won't be particularly popular.
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MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
10.21.2015 , 03:16 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
I have no desire to defend anything BW has done. Most of what I've seen looks like crap, and the slicing mats in way too many schematics is, in fact, particularly crappy. I made a point of not addressing the issue earlier because it was not official. Now that it's official, I have no problem saying that it's crap.

That said, the system *is* easier, at least IMO. I don't like RNG-dependent things, and the components are (IMO) an acceptable price to pay for the removal of the RNG. Adding the Slicing mats to some schems, especially since they didn't bother to discuss it in the crafting blog, does go beyond what I consider an "acceptable" price to pay, however.
Is not the only true removal of RNG from the crafting process though the ability to now choose your mission for gathering/missions which arguably doesn't neccessarily have to be part of the crafting process?

People mention RE RNG and that's wonderful but it's a temporary boon, once you have the schems that aspect is useless unlike the extra crafting step.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.21.2015 , 04:07 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MeNaCe-NZ View Post
Is not the only true removal of RNG from the crafting process though the ability to now choose your mission for gathering/missions which arguably doesn't neccessarily have to be part of the crafting process?
No. Prior to 4.0 there was RNG in which missions you could run *and* what those missions returned. The example I gave earlier was Grade 9 Bioanalysis mats. There were two types -- Samples and Compounds,. There were two subtypes of each -- i.e., two different Sample types and two different Compound types. If you "won" the RNG to get the mission type (Sample or Compound) you wanted, you then had had to win the RNG to get which subtype you wanted. So you had to win two RNGs in succession to get what you wanted.

In 4.0, BW removed the "extra" subtypes -- e.g., for Grade 9 Bio there is now only one Sample and one Compound. AND they put all missions on the list. So now you can run whichever mission type (Sample or Compound) you want, and there is only one return type, so you always get you want. In return, however, when we want to craft an item, we have to combine the greens and whites in one stage and add the blues/purples in a second stage. That was what I explained with my "10/20/30" algorithms.

We get rid of two layers of RNG in return for one additional layer of non-random work.

Quote:
People mention RE RNG and that's wonderful but it's a temporary boon, once you have the schems that aspect is useless unlike the extra crafting step.
You are correct. However, as I pointed out earlier, you only need to build up one stack of the new components to reach the steady state, so it really is a one-time cost just like RE'ing things. Once you have the first few components, making more is no more difficult than trying to get a specific subtype of a given mat.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.21.2015 , 12:22 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
You are correct, this particular step does not improve QOL, and in fact -- in isolation -- it detracts from QOL However, in conjunction with the removal of the RNG, as you noted, the OVERALL system is easier. As I have said before, this is the price we pay for the other things that we wanted.
You say: "this is the price we pay for the other things we wanted"

Are you implying that a QoL upgrade should be "balanced" by adding something else that isn't a QoL upgrade?

Or did I misunderstand you?

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DawnAskham
10.21.2015 , 12:46 PM | #15
Taken as a whole, the crafting changes and additions are underwhelming to say the least.

No new schematics for basic / common level hilts, barrels, ears, implants, relics, mods, armoring, or enhancements.

New basic / common level stuff that most will consider junk as it is blue, non-modular, and requires quite a few exotic materials to craft, not to mention competed with common crystal gear and WZ commendation gear, both of which are extremely easy to gain the necessary commendation for purchase.

New SM / HM level stuff that will probably have very niche demand, again because it is non-modular and not only requires a few exotic materials but also a material throttled by conquest, not to mention all HM FPs and SM ops are fully bolstered, and all drop modular gear of equal or better quality.

Random-ish seeming schematics for various crew skills that require slicing materials and / or do not require the typical matched mission material and / or require the 'assembly' from another crew skill.

A extra step added in every schematic to craft 'assembly' items before being able to craft final product.

Loss of lots of legacy schematics.

A consolidation of older materials which does have its positives, but not as many to my play-style as to a few other posters, so a net wash for me personally.

Ability to select any mission, which is a great QOL change, but given the very limited items able to be crafted and the subset of those that actually use appropriate mission materials, not as big a QOL as it would have been absent the stupidity of other changes.

More resources from harvesting, great for those that spend time riding in circles on planets, no big deal to me personally.

MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
10.21.2015 , 04:08 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
No. Prior to 4.0 there was RNG in which missions you could run *and* what those missions returned. The example I gave earlier was Grade 9 Bioanalysis mats. There were two types -- Samples and Compounds,. There were two subtypes of each -- i.e., two different Sample types and two different Compound types. If you "won" the RNG to get the mission type (Sample or Compound) you wanted, you then had had to win the RNG to get which subtype you wanted. So you had to win two RNGs in succession to get what you wanted.

In 4.0, BW removed the "extra" subtypes -- e.g., for Grade 9 Bio there is now only one Sample and one Compound. AND they put all missions on the list. So now you can run whichever mission type (Sample or Compound) you want, and there is only one return type, so you always get you want. In return, however, when we want to craft an item, we have to combine the greens and whites in one stage and add the blues/purples in a second stage. That was what I explained with my "10/20/30" algorithms.

We get rid of two layers of RNG in return for one additional layer of non-random work.
Ignoring the 4 crew skills required for schems ... even if they came from the same 2 crew skills as before that is still 7 independent materials and a crafted material I have to keep track of for my schematics.

I only have 6 crew to achieve 7 material gathers and 2 crafts ... that's effectively 9 steps.
You can argue the "once you build up a base" but there is no analysis provided on what that entails ( and I am not doing it because I don't think you're correct solely by the 6 crew vs 9 steps point ) and how accurate it is.

For example how long do you need to be playing each day and how long does each login period need to be on one toon to make it so you can effectively and consistently gather the materials required ( ignoring nodes, this would be done during game play I assume for most casual players ), craft the first step and again craft the second step.

I mean if you play 8 hours straight every day it's probably not too much of an issue ( possibly storage ) as you could constantly be sending out those companions as soon the return so it would come down to how long the 2 crafting steps take vs the gathering steps ( even though you can't do the second crafting step until the first one is complete so let's hope the first step is much faster than the second ).

However say you are a person who logs in once or twice a day to send out their companions ( for example I can use myself and I believe psandak has often stated this is how he operates though he at least as multi toons to balance out the multi mat issue but even then it's not going to balance out as well as it did in 3.0 because you're still running into the point of not being able to send out as many crafters for finished products, regardless of how many toons, as you did with the same setup in 3.0 ) this system is utter fail to any sense of streamlining the process because doing it this way I just won't have the mats available to send our crafters each login as I did in 3.0

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.21.2015 , 04:49 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
You say: "this is the price we pay for the other things we wanted"

Are you implying that a QoL upgrade should be "balanced" by adding something else that isn't a QoL upgrade?

Or did I misunderstand you?
You misunderstood Showing all the missions is not *just* a QoL change, it changes the expected rate of mat acquisition (supply). People weren't asking solely for convenience, they were asking for it because they wanted more mats faster. No, BW didn't *have* to rebalance anything, it's just not unreasonable that they did so.
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eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.21.2015 , 05:18 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by MeNaCe-NZ View Post
You can argue the "once you build up a base" but there is no analysis provided on what that entails
I'm not making any argument based on how I manage my mats. All I'm saying is that people complained about the RNG and BW removed the RNG and replaced it with something deterministic. If you didn't like the RNG, this should be an improvement. If you didn't care about the RNG, than yes, this could be irritating. But I can send out six companions to craft 5 components each, so that's 30 components in less than 20 minutes, and that's enough to get started.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.21.2015 , 05:20 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
You misunderstood Showing all the missions is not *just* a QoL change, it changes the expected rate of mat acquisition (supply). People weren't asking solely for convenience, they were asking for it because they wanted more mats faster. No, BW didn't *have* to rebalance anything, it's just not unreasonable that they did so.
Ahh. I get what you're saying.

So then, with this in mind, wouldn't you agree with my statement that the addition of crafting components was NOT done to make crafting easier, but for some other reason?

That was really the only point I wanted to make.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
10.21.2015 , 05:35 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Ahh. I get what you're saying.

So then, with this in mind, wouldn't you agree with my statement that the addition of crafting components was NOT done to make crafting easier, but for some other reason?

That was really the only point I wanted to make.
I don't see it as separable from the removal of the RNG. On it's own it doesn't make things easier -- if I'm right about why it was included, BW should have presented it as part of the remove-RNG feature so that everybody could see that it was clearly a package deal. By just listing it as a separate item in their change log / blog, I can totally understand why people would say "HTF does this *help* me?".

OTOH, even though it should be obvious that if a game is supposed to have challenges, and being sub-based, will have some time sinks, I can understand devs not wanting to call attention to them. I can't imagine sausage makers wanting to explain *how* the ingredients are used, they just list them as required by law and hope people don't ask

Edit: I just got a disturbing image in my head -- imagine what the general chat on a sausage maker's forum would look like if mmo players were on it. I'm thinking the RPPM/ RNG discussions would be priceless.
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