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A simple fix for PVP, why are more people not advocating this?


Sweeet

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I quit a few months back because I wasn’t enjoying myself in PvP, quit simply because I only had full BM gear and didn’t have the time to grind out WH gear to be truly competitive. I’ve now come back and am beginning to realise why I quit in the first place, the grind for WH gear is joke, and that’s when I already have full BM. I wanted to start working on my Scoundrel too, but having to grind out not only BM gear, but then WH gear on top of that just in order to be competitive is really putting a bad taste in my mouth. PvP is not fun when you are going up against WH premade over and over, it’s as simple as that.

 

The biggest issue is that losing a Normal Warzone will actually net you more Ranked Warzone commendations than losing a Ranked Warzone... Which is ridiculous, it’s no wonder all the premade WH groups are playing normal WZ’s... Not only do they get more Ranked Warzone commendations if they actually do lose, but the chances of them going up against a rookie pug and stomping them is greatly increased, giving them even more Ranked Warzone commendations for little effort. Since when is designing PVP to cater to this kind of behaviour good game design?

 

The fix is so simple I really am surprised it’s not been done already. If you make losing a Ranked Warzone more lucrative and actually viable for gearing up to WH, it would fix PvP entirely. Recruit players would be left to fight other recruit players in Normal Warzones whilst trying to get their BM gear, and the rest of us in our BM gear and up would be left playing in Ranked Warzones trying to get full WH gear.

 

Then there is another bonus, what we will start seeing once everyone starts gearing up to the same level in Ranked Warzones, is games becoming more competitive and based on skill, which is what Ranked Warzones are all about in the first place! All the idiots who just want to steamroll the lesser geared players will still have their Normal Warzones and the rest of us will finally be able to start playing competitively and actually having some real fun.

 

It’s a win/win, and I think a little change like this could not only fix PvP, but save SWTOR in its entirety as the majority of people who have left, have done so because of PvP.

 

Isn’t it about time to lessen the gear grind for WH gear and actually make gearing up through Ranked Warzones viable?

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I agree, it takes a really long time to get ONE piece of War Hero gear. The gap for new players is way too big or for alts. I re-rolled back to my warrior after playing my sin for months and I'm dreading this grind.

 

I doubt they'll do anything about it though. One suggestion is to increase the amount of comms you get from games.

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I agree, it takes a really long time to get ONE piece of War Hero gear. The gap for new players is way too big or for alts. I re-rolled back to my warrior after playing my sin for months and I'm dreading this grind.

 

I doubt they'll do anything about it though. One suggestion is to increase the amount of comms you get from games.

 

Increasing the amount of commendations you get from Normal Warzones will not help as it will just encourage more WH premades to play in Normal Warzones. What needs to happen is players need to be segregated based on their gear level, which is what Ranked Warzones were supposed to do in the first place - which has obviously failed horribly.

 

If they fix the gear grind in Ranked Warzones and make the better geared players actually want to play there, they will fix PvP. It really is that simple.

Edited by Sweeet
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Another thought would be to lower the cost oh WH gear.. There are lots of people like me that don't have all that many hours to spend grinding out comms for gear.. Make it easier to get the gear then PvP will become more even and people will enjoy playing..
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What needs to happen is players need to be segregated based on their gear level.

 

Valor would be the stat to use, it's the only thing players can't abuse. Gear can be manipulated easily. Match making should be based on Valor, but not by some minimum hard cap. Say 70+'s are prioritized together, but not completely locked out of lower Valor games.. Wouldn't want queues to take forever either!

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If you dont have the time to put in for the grind dont come to the threads crying about it when u get face rolled. if you want the gear put in the time like the rest of us did.

 

But yes haveing teams made based on Valor rank would go along way to help everyone enjoy pvp bettter

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Valor would be the stat to use, it's the only thing players can't abuse. Gear can be manipulated easily. Match making should be based on Valor, but not by some minimum hard cap. Say 70+'s are prioritized together, but not completely locked out of lower Valor games.. Wouldn't want queues to take forever either!

 

People need to be paired based on gear level and skill, Valour doesn't prove either of those. The well geared players need an incentive to play together, if people actually started playing Ranked Warzones competitively, then they would start to get paired with other teams with similar ratings. Problem solved.

 

However that will never happen unless Bioware makes WH gear easier to obtain. People aren't going to put up with the grind, not that they face in Normal Warzones currently. Hell people have not put up with the grind and left already.

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Here is my issue with the geared players playing ranked. It is limited to a group of 8. I would put all my credits on the line to say that most full WH PvPers grinded their gear doing regulars either alone or with a select few friends. it is tough to find a full group of 8 outside of primtime (or sometimes during primetime) to queue up. Secondly, since there are limited groups that can scrape together 8 well geared players to be competitive, the queues are crazy long. Who wants to sit and wait when we can slowly have fun grinding out regular coms. I think the root of the problem is the fact that it is limited to a full premade 8 man team. My suggestion would be to not open it up to free solo queing (that would be a mess) but to allow 2 groups of 4 to be paired together. That would keep the integrity of the competition by forcing a 4 man team to queue and it would keep out the random solo recruit gear queuers. And just for reference I am a full WH sentinel with both Elite WH weapons at 76 valor.
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If you dont have the time to put in for the grind dont come to the threads crying about it when u get face rolled. if you want the gear put in the time like the rest of us did.

 

But yes haveing teams made based on Valor rank would go along way to help everyone enjoy pvp bettter

 

Some people actually have real life to attend to and can't afford to spend 40+ hours a week running Warzones to get fully geared in a couple of months, if not more - yes it actually takes that long at present. That's over two months playing 40+ hours a week of getting steam-rolled until they can actually start being competitive. Much much longer if you can only spare 15 hours a week.

 

And people wonder why this game has lost 750,000+ subscribers already. Do you want the game to be a complete failure?

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People need to be paired based on gear level and skill, Valour doesn't prove either of those. The well geared players need an incentive to play together, if people actually started playing Ranked Warzones competitively, then they would start to get paired with other teams with similar ratings. Problem solved.

 

However that will never happen unless Bioware makes WH gear easier to obtain. People aren't going to put up with the grind, not that they face in Normal Warzones currently. Hell people have not put up with the grind and left already.

 

I agree with your intention but not your suggested solution based on gear. Like I tried to say, people can enter WZs in level 9 green gear and put on their augmented WH gear once inside and ruin the experience for the fresh 50s. It would work against it's intention.

 

Valor is the only constant that can be used for creating more equal teams. Valor level requires a certain amount of WZs played and commendations earned, there is no way to cheat with this stat. If you are Valor 70+, you should have pretty decent gear and PVP experience.

 

Pairing on skill is impossible, skill cannot be measured by gear rating nor Valor rank. Ranked WZs should be the competitive playing field between the top players. When it comes to dedicated and competitive PvP players, the grind will not matter for those that strive to be on the top.

 

Edit: I would like to see WH gear become slightly easier and streamlined to aquire, I'm not arguing that point :)

Edited by Svii
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I think the OP's point has a lot of validity. For me another fix would be the weekly PvP quest. My thinking is that it should more closely mirror the daily quest. Win 9 or play 18. I know of several people in my guild who have the weekly on their quest log for weeks who PvP a lot.

 

I guess the closest analogy I can come up with is that fresh 50s who start PvPing (even in the new recruit gear), are suddenly the voice of every encounter that is "farm status". I know that if I pug, I'm probably going to to get facerolled by better geared players that have normal warzones on farm status. However, I still enjoy it, I still get commendations (while I prioritize objectives, I still try to shoot for the 8 medal cap) and when I do get to War Hero I'll be that much more prepared by facing these same opponents.

 

The growth experience gained from fighting in warzones is not only gear but also knowledge.

 

That said, I would agree with a tweak to the grind for WH.

Edited by Jekan
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Here is my issue with the geared players playing ranked. It is limited to a group of 8. I would put all my credits on the line to say that most full WH PvPers grinded their gear doing regulars either alone or with a select few friends. it is tough to find a full group of 8 outside of primtime (or sometimes during primetime) to queue up. Secondly, since there are limited groups that can scrape together 8 well geared players to be competitive, the queues are crazy long. Who wants to sit and wait when we can slowly have fun grinding out regular coms. I think the root of the problem is the fact that it is limited to a full premade 8 man team. My suggestion would be to not open it up to free solo queing (that would be a mess) but to allow 2 groups of 4 to be paired together. That would keep the integrity of the competition by forcing a 4 man team to queue and it would keep out the random solo recruit gear queuers. And just for reference I am a full WH sentinel with both Elite WH weapons at 76 valor.

 

It's not only that, I've recently found a good guild who regularly has over 8 people online all wanting to run Warzones, but running Ranked just isn't feasible as losing offers such a pitiful amount of Ranked commendations. You actually get more Ranked commendations from losing a normal Warzone, that doesn't even make a single bit of sense.

 

I agree that would be a good idea, but they absolutely need to raise the amount of Ranked commendations gained from partaking in Ranked Warzones or nobody will want to do them. Playing Ranked needs to be a feasible way of obtained WH gear, and more importantly in a reasonable amount of time. I can't see this game breaking 200k subs ever again unless they do so.

Edited by Sweeet
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I agree with your intention but not your suggested solution based on gear. Like I tried to say, people can enter WZs in level 9 green gear and put on their augmented WH gear once inside and ruin the experience for the fresh 50s. It would work against it's intention.

 

Valor is the only constant that can be used for creating more equal teams. Valor level requires a certain amount of WZs played and commendations earned, there is no way to cheat with this stat. If you are Valor 70+, you should have pretty decent gear and PVP experience.

 

Pairing on skill is impossible, skill cannot be measured by gear rating nor Valor rank. Ranked WZs should be the competitive playing field between the top players. When it comes to dedicated and competitive PvP players, the grind will not matter for those that strive to be on the top.

 

Edit: I would like to see WH gear become slightly easier and streamlined to aquire, I'm not arguing that point :)

 

And I understand your intention :) unfortunately there is a serious flaw in doing it like this. Currently you can buy any PvP gear on your main, and with the introduction of Legacy gear it would be very easy to cheat the system. All you would have to do is buy a load of decent PvP gear for an alt, strip the mods and put them into Legacy gear, then send that gear to an alt with little to no Valour.

 

One fully BM/WH geared alt with little to no Valour tearing through people. So unless they do a major rework on who can buy what and what you can send to alts with Legacy gear, I can't see them ever doing this.

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Another thought would be to lower the cost oh WH gear.. There are lots of people like me that don't have all that many hours to spend grinding out comms for gear.. Make it easier to get the gear then PvP will become more even and people will enjoy playing..

 

They don't need to do that if Ranked war zones encourages those who "have the time" to get WH gear to actually compete in ranked. Then suddenly, you don't need WH gear as bad if you don't have the time, because the unranked would then be filled with those who are probably more like you, or someone just passing through until they are ready for ranked.

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The biggest issue is that losing a Normal Warzone will actually net you more Ranked Warzone commendations than losing a Ranked Warzone... Which is ridiculous, it’s no wonder all the premade WH groups are playing normal WZ’s... Not only do they get more Ranked Warzone commendations if they actually do lose, but the chances of them going up against a rookie pug and stomping them is greatly increased, giving them even more Ranked Warzone commendations for little effort. Since when is designing PVP to cater to this kind of behaviour good game design?

 

while I don't advocate Qing rateds to grind rwz comms (you don't belong in rated if you're not wh, imo), I'm pretty sure this statement is dead wrong. The max comms you can earn from any WZ is 140. 140/3 = 46.6ish. You would have to average less than 47 rated comms per loss while maximizing (winning) every reg WZ in which you Q in order to make farming reg wz's more efficient than rated WZs for accumulating rated comms.

 

so no. if rated comms are your goal, then rated WZs will almost certainly get you there faster (assuming the queues pop, but you can queue for both at the same time, so you don't lose any time by also queueing for rated).

 

no. the problem with sub wh ppl in Q for rated is as follows:

  1. rated rankings are an imperfect system, but they are designed to establish a pecking order. if you Q up for rated in half-assed gear (and few adrenals/med pacs since you're not wasting comms on them yet!), then you're handing the other team wins, thereby inflating their rating (granted, the more you lose, the less they gain). At the same time, you're killing your own rating, which (hopefully) is not an actual reflection of your skill but, in fact, reflects the lack of gear on your toon when you tanked your rating to farm comms.
  2. getting rolled, trolled, and spawn farmed is the least fun thing I can possibly think of. I don't even like it when my own team starts farming. grow up. have some honor. or be that little twerp on xb live. I'm for the former, personally.

Edited by foxmob
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And I understand your intention :) unfortunately there is a serious flaw in doing it like this. Currently you can buy any PvP gear on your main, and with the introduction of Legacy gear it would be very easy to cheat the system. All you would have to do is buy a load of decent PvP gear for an alt, strip the mods and put them into Legacy gear, then send that gear to an alt with little to no Valour.

 

One fully BM/WH geared alt with little to no Valour tearing through people. So unless they do a major rework on who can buy what and what you can send to alts with Legacy gear, I can't see them ever doing this.

 

True! I always forget this twink loophole when discussing the issue haha A combo then with what's in your inventory :p

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They don't need to do that if Ranked war zones encourages those who "have the time" to get WH gear to actually compete in ranked. Then suddenly, you don't need WH gear as bad if you don't have the time, because the unranked would then be filled with those who are probably more like you, or someone just passing through until they are ready for ranked.

 

Exactly :)

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The prices will be coming down for war hero soon as the next tier will be out.

 

That just starts the cycle over again though unfortunately. The best will have the new tier while everyone else will be getting WH and the new tier geared people roll the lesser geared people.

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while I don't advocate Qing rateds to grind rwz comms (you don't belong in rated if you're not wh, imo), I'm pretty sure this statement is dead wrong. The max comms you can earn from any WZ is 140. 140/3 = 46.6ish. You would have to average less than 47 rated comms per loss while maximizing (winning) every reg WZ in which you Q in order to make farming reg wz's more efficient than rated WZs for accumulating rated comms.

 

so no. if rated comms are your goal, then rated WZs will almost certainly get you there faster (assuming the queues pop, but you can queue for both at the same time, so you don't lose any time by also queueing for rated).

 

no. the problem with sub wh ppl in Q for rated is as follows:

  1. rated rankings are an imperfect system, but they are designed to establish a pecking order. if you Q up for rated in half-assed gear (and few adrenals/med pacs since you're not wasting comms on them yet!), then you're handing the other team wins, thereby inflating their rating (granted, the more you lose, the less they gain). At the same time, you're killing your own rating, which (hopefully) is not an actual reflection of your skill but, in fact, reflects the lack of gear on your toon when you tanked your rating to farm comms.
  2. getting rolled, trolled, and spawn farmed is the least fun thing I can possibly think of. I don't even like it when my own team starts farming. grow up. have some honor. or be that little twerp on xb live. I'm for the former, personally.

 

Currently losing a normal Warzone will net you anywhere between 40-100 commendations. I've been told losing a Ranked Warzone will get you 20-25 most of the time. What incentive is there to play a Ranked Warzone when you can get at least as much from losing a normal but actually have a chance at winning and not getting farmed?

 

1) That's actually the point in trying to steer everyone who wants to gear up past BM into Ranked, as it will make the match-ups fairer.

 

2) The under-geared teams may get steam-rolled a couple of times, but it shouldn't be an issue once the geared teams have rolled a few other teams as they will then start getting paired with other steam-rolling teams. Providing the ranking system is doing its job.

Edited by Sweeet
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True! I always forget this twink loophole when discussing the issue haha A combo then with what's in your inventory :p

 

If they implement a gear check, then a valor check is redundant and completely unneeded. A gear check would be the superior option. Someone already posted why (legacy gear from main to the 0 valor alt = instageared roflstomper)

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I agree with your intention but not your suggested solution based on gear. Like I tried to say, people can enter WZs in level 9 green gear and put on their augmented WH gear once inside and ruin the experience for the fresh 50s. It would work against it's intention.

 

a solution for this would be not to allow players to change their gear once they're in.

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That just starts the cycle over again though unfortunately. The best will have the new tier while everyone else will be getting WH and the new tier geared people roll the lesser geared people.

 

While that maybe so I can take down Full WH at times when i was Full BM there really isnt that much of a difference

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I started playing this game in May right as Denova dropped or shortly there after and usually play for around 2 hours late a night before bed. I stay consistent with my dailies and try to group up with guildies who are on the same grind as me as much as I can for the benefit of vent coordination. I have top PvP gear that way and I didnt have to play 14 hours a day for weeks on end. Thats I guess the point of the whole thing is that people can complain that the grind is too much because they dont want to grind and are lazy. The grind is what keeps me interested in playing because there is a goal to obtain. The worst time playing this game ever was anticipating 1.4 and being capped in coms to get the new Elite MH. I didnt even want to be logged into the game.

 

But overall, I do not think the grind is too terribly long. Just stay consistent with your coms and you should be fine. What seperates the good player (usually) from the baddies are the ones that are willing to put in the work to get the gear and experience in the WZ environment and those who want to be handed gear and perks with little to no effort..

 

If I had time to do my daily's every day it would still take at least a couple of months, but I don't same as most other people with busy lives. For people like us gearing to full WH is a joke, we can also kiss wanting to gear another character goodbye.

 

I can assure you I'm not a bad player, but knowing there is no way I'll ever be able to gear more than one character is depressing and makes me not want to play at all. How can Bioware try and peg levelling multiple characters and the new Legacy feature whilst making it so prohibitive to actually gear more than one of those characters? It's just one more thing to add to Bioware's list of fail thus far.

 

I'm just trying to throw an idea out there that could have an incredibly positive impact on the game. Unfortunately it would seem all the self-entitled people who actually did grind out their WH gear want the game to fail as it's "not fair".

 

I can promise you now that this game will not recover unless they make PvP more accessible. And no Recruit gear is nowhere near enough to outweigh the grind to full WH, not by a long shot.

Edited by Sweeet
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