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The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP


Tumri

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@Calerie

 

Can you tell me another class who has ;

 

-Stun (4 sec)

-Knockback

-Never ending slow

- Good DPS + nice burst dmg too

-Buble (It can be on the player all the time)

-Speed buff

-Heal

-Do you need anything else ? (like a button to keel all the players in the warzone)

 

Topic owner tried to explain why sorc/sages have more advantage than the other classes and you are obviously playin sorc or sage cause defending blindly. In my server, sorc/sage population is more than %60-70, I can easily see 6-7 sorcerers in wz.So This overpopulated class doesn't need a nerf ? Are u still defending this class ?

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50% more crit damage on main damaging abilities is "minor"? Garantueed crit nuke is "minor"? 20% damage debuff for 30 seconds is "minor"? Another 2 second root with decent damage is "minor"? Instant Force Waves and free extra instant damage spells are "minor"

Sure thing bro, I visit you sometime on your planet.

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@Calerie

 

Can you tell me another class who has ;

 

-Stun (4 sec)

-Knockback

-Never ending slow

- Good DPS + nice burst dmg too

-Buble (It can be on the player all the time)

-Speed buff

-Heal

-Do you need anything else ? (like a button to keel all the players in the warzone)

 

Topic owner tried to explain why sorc/sages have more advantage than the other classes and you are obviously playin sorc or sage cause defending blindly. In my server, sorc/sage population is more than %60-70, I can easily see 6-7 sorcerers in wz.So This overpopulated class doesn't need a nerf ? Are u still defending this class ?

 

They don't need a nerf. What they need is better talent trees that aren't susceptible to abusive hybrid specs that cause the class to become overpowered through sheer utility and unintended talent combinations.

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50% more crit damage on main damaging abilities is "minor"? Garantueed crit nuke is "minor"? 20% damage debuff for 30 seconds is "minor"? Another 2 second root with decent damage is "minor"? Instant Force Waves and free extra instant damage spells are "minor"

Sure thing bro, I visit you sometime on your planet.

 

Did you even look at the hybrid spec build I linked in the original post? It includes everything you mentioned except the +30% crit damage talent(which isn't as good as you try to make it seem by calling it a +50% crit damage talent).

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@Calerie

 

Can you tell me another class who has ;

 

-Stun (4 sec)

-Knockback

-Never ending slow

- Good DPS + nice burst dmg too

-Buble (It can be on the player all the time)

-Speed buff

-Heal

-Do you need anything else ? (like a button to keel all the players in the warzone)

 

Topic owner tried to explain why sorc/sages have more advantage than the other classes and you are obviously playin sorc or sage cause defending blindly. In my server, sorc/sage population is more than %60-70, I can easily see 6-7 sorcerers in wz.So This overpopulated class doesn't need a nerf ? Are u still defending this class ?

 

I get stunned by other classes just as often.

Knockback has 2 second activation timer. What I mean is it takes 2 second after pressing it to activate. I have seen good players dodging it. Good players will also save their gap closers for after the knockback.

Neverending slow? How? One slow roots me and the other has a CD.

DPS and nice burst? TK yes. Hybrid/Balance is middle ground. Healers don't

Bubble doesn't benefit from damage reduction so you basically pound on ~3k naked how hard is that to break?

Speed buff yeah the class with the lowest mitigation should also be the least mobile right?

Heal we have 2 heals one short cast time which heals for close to nothing and gets us oof so fast you wouldn't believe it.

The other is at least 2.5 second cast and if you are not healing specced you have to disengage or get out of line of sight. Non healer Sorcs/Sages cannot heal in the middle of combat against any opponent with a brain.

 

Did you even look at the hybrid spec build I linked in the original post? It includes everything you mentioned except the +30% crit damage talent(which isn't as good as you try to make it seem by calling it a +50% crit damage talent).

 

I don't have to I ran several myself already.

Edited by Vales
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sorcs counter is a sentinal, a good sentinal with destroy a sorc in under 10 seconds

 

That's actually false. A sorc counters melee DPS with their abundant CC and kiting tools. They're the frost mages of SWTOR. Sorcerers are countered by Operatives because their burst is unavoidable and can't be kited due to stuns and knockdowns.

Edited by Tumri
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They are far from being frost mages at all. That you even compare them to the class while they have close to nothing in common with them but Force Speed for mobility which isn't even a teleport and even on twice as big CD shows me you got no clue.

Frost Mages also have far greater burst, no dots, cannot shield others, cannot heal themselves outside of a glyphed Evocation, have an inbuild slow in their main nuke which lasts for 12 seconds with talents, have ranged AoE root, PbAoE roots, Stun which lasts even 5 seconds on half the CD which also gives them extra crit and extra crit damage on one spell, AoE freeze, spamable mezz unlike lift.

 

If you want to make a comparison then the only valid one is Priest/Shadowpriest and Shaman (For TK tree and Lift)

Edited by Vales
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I really don't understand why sorc/sages are cryin at the moment that they don't need a nerf cause this class "squishy like this or that.Simple question to all the sorc/sage players.

 

- WHY %60-70 of imp players are playin sorc OR %60-70 of republic players are playing Sage?

 

Give a honest answer. Then you will understand why this class needs a nerf.

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QQ more......if you dont know how to play your class dont take it to the forums.Theres an OP build for most classes.....spec yourself correctly and you'll have np.Never met a sorce i couldnt beat or have a really good fight with.Any type of nerf would make them too weak.

@Calerie

 

Can you tell me another class who has ;

 

-Stun (4 sec)

-Knockback

-Never ending slow

- Good DPS + nice burst dmg too

-Buble (It can be on the player all the time)

-Speed buff

-Heal

-Do you need anything else ? (like a button to keel all the players in the warzone)

 

Topic owner tried to explain why sorc/sages have more advantage than the other classes and you are obviously playin sorc or sage cause defending blindly. In my server, sorc/sage population is more than %60-70, I can easily see 6-7 sorcerers in wz.So This overpopulated class doesn't need a nerf ? Are u still defending this class ?

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Doubt they will be nerfed unless we get any sort of ranking system so that people of equal ability and gear can play against each other. A good sorc is *********** deadly with the kiting tools they have. However this will probably never become visible to Bioware since most people that play this game are dreadfull and I have seen about a handfull of RDPS able to competently kite. Fortunately this also leads to this imbalance being a minor issue since their lack of knowledge and ability more then makes up for it. I've never considered myself to be better then decent, slightly above average. Someone who would end up with a KD of 1.4 to put it in shooter terms. Unfortunately this seems to no longer be the case in SWTOR.
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The hybrid spec really is obscenely overpowered though. Sorcs that are using it are doing far better on average than other classes. Bioware will surely notice this in their in-game metrics.

 

Sorc hybrids arent overpowered, Bioware proved that when they nerfed assassins hybrids which were clearly overpowered. /sarcasm

Edited by Vesperr
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I really don't understand why sorc/sages are cryin at the moment that they don't need a nerf cause this class "squishy like this or that.Simple question to all the sorc/sage players.

 

- WHY %60-70 of imp players are playin sorc OR %60-70 of republic players are playing Sage?

 

Give a honest answer. Then you will understand why this class needs a nerf.

 

Honest Answer: Its the only ranged class with mobility. Try playing a Trooper/Bounty or a Agent/Smuggler.

 

Trooper/Bounty are turret classes. Meaning that they have to sit and cast, but in return or their sitting time, they get to deal out massive damage.

Agent/Smuggler are either melee heavy with Operative/Scoundrel, or Ranged Heavy with Sniper/Gunslinger, which both adv classes req a cast time on any decent dmg ability.

 

Sages/Sorcs are the only ranged class which doesnt not depend on sit casting if spec'd right. which BTW full 41 Balance is BOSS in PvP. Free Snare with no effect to resolve bar = awesome. I dont know why someone would go Hybrid anyway. a free TKW? please lol. my force in balance hits just as hard. just give me the extra 100 force and the better bubble and im fine.

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That's part of the problem. The drawback to being a ranged DPS is having to cast abilities. The hybrid spec gives them more mobility through nearly spammable instant-chain lightning and a lack of reliance on casting while also giving them increased damage. Hybrid 20/21 builds are also giving them more CC and kiting ability than any other spec. It's just too much for one player to have all at once. Edited by Tumri
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Not that much. The majority of their damage is coming from instant casts and DoTs with the hybrid spec. Force Lightning is a filler that's used to proc Wrath when they're out of harm's way. Having to channel Force Lightning once in a while isn't even close to what other rDPS have to do.

 

Casting heals in DPS spec is a big bonus if anything. DPS sorcs aren't meant to be showering themselves in big heals.

Edited by Tumri
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Not that much. The majority of their damage is coming from instant casts and DoTs with the hybrid spec. Force Lightning is a filler that's used to proc Wrath when they're out of harm's way. Having to channel Force Lightning once in a while isn't even close to what other rDPS have to do.

 

Casting heals in DPS spec is a big bonus if anything. DPS sorcs aren't meant to be showering themselves in big heals.

 

You seem to talk an awful lot about what classes are "intended" to do. Too bad it's usually contradicted by actual class design. DPS sorcs clearly ARE meant to be casting significant heals, since they can.

 

Maybe you need to take a step back and realize you're talking about a game you'd design, and not the one the SWTOR devs designed.

Edited by Caelrie
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just another pve terrible marauder that doesn't realize that with gear his class is the most powerful.

 

Because he has no idea how to play.

 

BTW, Merc have the same amount of cc we do. More Burst, and more mitigation. I don't see the issue?

 

 

The misconception of sorcs do massive damage all comes from wrath and deathfield.

 

I use it CONSTANTLY when targets are stacked together because its my main dps ability which hits for the same amount on every target it hits. It doesn't crit for massive amounts. But it does do a decent amount of damage.

 

The class that does the LOWEST burst and single target damage should be doing the MOST overall damage or the class is useless. Grow up, Accept that you aren't very good and Move on. Also, No good sorc goes half lightning, Just to CL. 20% DF and dot crits are much better.

Edited by Lingalol
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just another pve terrible marauder that doesn't realize that with gear his class is the most powerful.

 

Because he has no idea how to play.

 

BTW, Merc have the same amount of cc we do. More Burst, and more mitigation. I don't see the issue?

 

 

The misconception of sorcs do massive damage all comes from wrath and deathfield.

 

I use it CONSTANTLY when targets are stacked together because its my main dps ability which hits for the same amount on every target it hits. It doesn't crit for massive amounts. But it does do a decent amount of damage.

 

The class that does the LOWEST burst and single target damage should be doing the MOST overall damage or the class is useless. Grow up, Accept that you aren't very good and Move on. Also, No good sorc goes half lightning, Just to CL. 20% DF and dot crits are much better.

 

Another sorcerer that doesn't realize that all the top PvP sorcerers are using the hybrid build to obtain an abnormal amount of CC and utility.

 

If you actually bothered to read I -DO NOT- want them to nerf ANYTHING. I want them to move some talents higher up the trees so hybrid specs can't get them. What I'm asking for wouldn't even effect you.

Edited by Tumri
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Another idiot sorcerer that doesn't realize that all the top PvP sorcerers are using the hybrid build to obtain an abnormal amount of CC and utility.

 

Like I said, No good ones are doing this. Which convinces me to believe you are even worse than I thought if you are losing to those sorcs.

 

Also, Same amount as a merc either way.

 

You have no argument.

 

 

If you nerf the hybrid spec. They will need to buff both 31 talent points considering they are completely worthless.

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In your previous post you said that nobody used the hybrid spec. Now you're saying if they kill the hybrid spec they'll need to buff the individual specs leading me to believe you use the hybrid spec.

 

 

Sounds like you're saying "DONT NERF ME BRO".

 

Edit: You contradict yourself so much. Which is it? Is nobody using the hybrid spec? If so why would they need to buff the 31 point talents to compensate?

Edited by Tumri
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just another pve terrible marauder that doesn't realize that with gear his class is the most powerful.

 

Because he has no idea how to play.

 

BTW, Merc have the same amount of cc we do. More Burst, and more mitigation. I don't see the issue?

 

 

The misconception of sorcs do massive damage all comes from wrath and deathfield.

 

I use it CONSTANTLY when targets are stacked together because its my main dps ability which hits for the same amount on every target it hits. It doesn't crit for massive amounts. But it does do a decent amount of damage.

 

The class that does the LOWEST burst and single target damage should be doing the MOST overall damage or the class is useless. Grow up, Accept that you aren't very good and Move on. Also, No good sorc goes half lightning, Just to CL. 20% DF and dot crits are much better.

 

Merc/Commando having the same CC as a Sorc/Sage? Can I please come to your fantasy land? Because that statement is just factually untrue.

 

Just to compare:

 

Shield(Insta cast heal, awesome scaling, appliable to others, run speed buff(talented)) -> nothing

aoe knockback(20s cooldown, 8m range), with talents immoblizes for up to 5s, unlimited targets -> aoe knockback(30s(20s talented) cooldown, 4m range(8m talented), with 4s slow, max 5 targets

speed boost -> nothing

30m 6s slow, 12s cooldown -> nothing

30m Ranged Interupt, 4s(6s talented) lockout, 12s cooldown-> nothing

Extrication -> nothing

4s stun 60s cooldown(50s talented), deals damage -> 4s stun 60s cooldown, no damage

3s 50% channeled slow -> nothing or 25 pts in gunnery for 50% channeld slow

force armor aoe sleep(talented) -> stock strike single target knockback(talented)

in combat rez -> nothing

 

That's a lot of nothing that the other ranged dps/healer class gets. It's also nice that i get to spend talent points to make my abilities have the same effects that sage/sorc get base line. The only thing that commando/mercenary gets base line that sage/sorc doesn't is a 12second 25% damage reduction with a 2 minute cooldown. Your opponent would have to do 12k damage or more in 12seconds for that to be better. The downside is that reactive shield has a 2 minute cooldown, compared to the 20s cooldown on force armor and reactive shield can not be cast on other people.

 

On armor:

Most dps classes have ~50% armor reduction, or deal elemental/internal damage, so to say that 30% mitigation vs 15% mitigation is meaningful is about as truthful as saying that sorc/sage has better defense due to having twice the base avoidance chance(10% vs 5%).

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^ Thank you. I really didn't want to write up a comparison of Sorcs/Sages and Sniper/Smugglers and Mercs/Commandos. Commandos/Merc actually get a decent amount in comparison to Snipers/Smugglers but even they are nothing in comparison to the absolutely dominant control and utility that a hybrid sorc gets.
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