They specifically acknowledged the credit cost was an issue for players:

I didn't ask them to acknowledge it did? I didn't say they had not acknowledge it did I? I asked what they are going to do to address it "yes we know it costs credits" is not addressing it.

And they detailed exactly what they plan to do to fix it.

Which has NOTHING to do with the fact it is costing credits now. Are you implying their response is saying they will do something about it and somehow fix people up who it cost credits? I doubt that, you would rather play strawman on what I actually asked as though I asked something else entirely to try and make out that the questions had indeed been answered when they had not.

You don't like that "We're going to fix it in the next Update" is the response. That's a perfectly legitimate opinion - I posted twice that I personally think they should remove the extraction cost as well in the meantime. But again, "I think they should do more" (i.e. "I'm not happy with what the answers are") is different from "They aren't communicating" / "They haven't given us answers". They have communicated that they know the credit cost is an issue and they have communicated what they plan to do about it.

They haven't communicated on the aspects I'm addressing at all. They stated that it's an issue and instead turned their backs on the thread. It would be to their benefit to actually discuss it further rather than the blatant "this is how it is, too bad we're ignoring you now" attitude they've taken. All that does is piss people off.

We got a detailed, 400-word response from Keith on it. They could have let the Patch Note about the change speak for itself. Instead:

• They acknowledged there was an issue imposing a cost on players and making us unhappy;
  
• They explained why they felt they had to make the change (Tunings); and
  
• They announced that they are planning to fix the issue in the next Update.
  

If there is nothing more they have planned on the topic, then I think there is probably nothing more to say.

Which again does not address the points I raised. You are telling me what they did as though that is acceptable towards what I am asking for. To me it's not, to you it is. It's that simple.

There is plenty more to say if they chose to do so, they are choosing not to do so to the detriment of their public image. That's on them, all I'm doing is pointing out what communication we could get that could help alleviate concerns or at least give people understanding as opposed to the "**** you" many think it is. Understanding and comprehension go a long way and you can't to that point if they don't communicate properly to help people understand.

Keith has been very quick to communicate, and in reasonable detail, on minor issues or things beyond their control but as soon as an issue arises that effects the community and appears to be from a direction decision made within their control ... that same level of communication becomes sparse.

Now, I wouldn't be shocked if, at some point, we do get a "hey, we hear your concerns about making a change that included an inconvenience for players before we had a fix for that inconvenience ready as well" gold post by way of further acknowledgement to salve some hurt feelings, but I really, really doubt they're going to change the underlying approach of "close the loophole quick, fix the collateral impact as soon as practicable afterwards". (And since it is being fixed in 5.4, they could always just wait it out.)

It's the "as soon as practicable" part that could use some clarification also. Why is that as soon as practicable? Why could other measures not be put in earlier (remove the credits removal cost for example)?

You could argue we don't need to know that (which would be subjective to yourself) or you could even pretend to answer the question yourself (people don't understand dev time, testing etc. etc. ) but fact is unless it's coming from a gold post - it's just your opinion on things and that's not going to make anyone feel any better about things.

My god you are still arguing with people about this? lol. You are the biggest white knight on these forums. No idea why you soooo passionate about this. It obviously doesn't even effect you. so why do you even care?

I'm a white knight for criticizing BWA's communication? Someone clearly doesn't know the meaning of the terms they are using lol.

To be fair to BioWare here, they had a problem with an in-game system that some players were abusing, which is against the ToS, they fixed that system (moving crystals in legacy weapons was fine, unlocking them in collections across your account wasn't mentioned by Eric). Now the legitimate players who have been impacted by that are complaining at BioWare, when really as a community we should be ostracizing the players who abused the system causing it to be changed for all of us.

We don't know who they are though. BWA do however - I would have loved to see some even handed approach to this exploit and actually punished those that used it (for tunings since the part on crystals is a little grey imo).

Other players get banned, items removed for exploiting - why should this be any different?

I didn't ask them to acknowledge it did? I didn't say they had not acknowledge it did I? I asked what they are going to do to address it "yes we know it costs credits" is not addressing it.

 

Which has NOTHING to do with the fact it is costing credits now. Are you implying their response is saying they will do something about it and somehow fix people up who it cost credits? I doubt that, you would rather play strawman on what I actually asked as though I asked something else entirely to try and make out that the questions had indeed been answered when they had not.

 

They haven't communicated on the aspects I'm addressing at all. They stated that it's an issue and instead turned their backs on the thread. It would be to their benefit to actually discuss it further rather than the blatant "this is how it is, too bad we're ignoring you now" attitude they've taken. All that does is piss people off.

 

Which again does not address the points I raised. You are telling me what they did as though that is acceptable towards what I am asking for. To me it's not, to you it is. It's that simple.

 

There is plenty more to say if they chose to do so, they are choosing not to do so to the detriment of their public image. That's on them, all I'm doing is pointing out what communication we could get that could help alleviate concerns or at least give people understanding as opposed to the "**** you" many think it is. Understanding and comprehension go a long way and you can't to that point if they don't communicate properly to help people understand.

 

Keith has been very quick to communicate, and in reasonable detail, on minor issues or things beyond their control but as soon as an issue arises that effects the community and appears to be from a direction decision made within their control ... that same level of communication becomes sparse.

 

It's the "as soon as practicable" part that could use some clarification also. Why is that as soon as practicable? Why could other measures not be put in earlier (remove the credits removal cost for example)?

You could argue we don't need to know that (which would be subjective to yourself) or you could even pretend to answer the question yourself (people don't understand dev time, testing etc. etc. ) but fact is unless it's coming from a gold post - it's just your opinion on things and that's not going to make anyone feel any better about things.

Question / Concern: "What are you doing about the fact that people are losing credits because of this change?"

Answer: "We are fixing it, in Update 5.4, so that Collection Unlocked Crystals and Tunings can be transferred using your legacy weapons."

They did address your concern. You're just not happy about how they are addressing it. You want them to do something different / more. That's fine, it's a legitimate opinion to have, but it is different than "they are not communicating what they are going to do about this issue" which is how you've cast your complaint.

Question / Concern: "What are you doing about the fact that people are losing credits because of this change?"

Answer: "We are fixing it, in Update 5.4, so that Collection Unlocked Crystals and Tunings can be transferred using your legacy weapons."

That's not answering the question at all as to what they are doing about people losing credits now or justifying why something had to wait so long or why another form of patch could have been done at the time to ensure people did not lose credits.

The takeaway from your line of reasoning is they don't give a **** about their players losing credits and we should have even less trust in them to get things right in the future.

They did address your concern.

No they did not, they addressed YOUR concern perhaps but not the one I've raised. It doesn't matter how you try imply differently I've blatantly outlined the concern and how it applies to now, I've justified even how it would help for them to clarify things further. You keep stating they've addressed it when they haven't. I'm glad that this is enough "communication" for you - for me, and many others it would seem, it is not.

You're just not happy about how they are addressing it.

I want exactly what I asked for, not what you are implying I'm asking for.

You want them to do something different / more.

Yes, that would be great but again that's not what I've asked for necessarily - I've asked for answers to questions.

That's fine, it's a legitimate opinion to have, but it is different than "they are not communicating what they are going to do about this issue" which is how you've cast your complaint.

I've never stated that have I? I clearly stated they are not communicating the parts I clearly stated.

Please cut the strawman nonsense. Quote me directly, I've made my statements and questions clear for you to do so in this thread. If you have to interpret it for more/less than it is instead of what it literally says well that's on you.

That's not answering the question at all as to what they are doing about people losing credits now or justifying why something had to wait so long or why another form of patch could have been done at the time to ensure people did not lose credits.

 

The takeaway from your line of reasoning is they don't give a **** about their players losing credits and we should have even less trust in them to get things right in the future.

 

No they did not, they addressed YOUR concern perhaps but not the one I've raised. It doesn't matter how you try imply differently I've blatantly outlined the concern and how it applies to now, I've justified even how it would help for them to clarify things further. You keep stating they've addressed it when they haven't. I'm glad that this is enough "communication" for you - for me, and many others it would seem, it is not.

 

I want exactly what I asked for, not what you are implying I'm asking for.

 

Yes, that would be great but again that's not what I've asked for necessarily - I've asked for answers to questions.

 

I've never stated that have I? I clearly stated they are not communicating the parts I clearly stated.

Please cut the strawman nonsense. Quote me directly, I've made my statements and questions clear for you to do so in this thread. If you have to interpret it for more/less than it is instead of what it literally says well that's on you.

Asked:

how about a reply to the concerns paying customers who DO have it legacy unlocked are losing credits?

And Answered:

This change did create a situation for all of us who are using Collections properly where there is an added step (and credit cost) to moving weapons. Our plan with Patch 5.4 in August is to resolve this new issue by allowing Collection Unlocked Crystals and Tunings to be transferred using your legacy weapons as you did previously (no cost/no removing of the items first).

Not a question:

How about an apology?

Asked:

How about explaining why you had to wait until 5.4 to put in a patch the favors the community yet at 5.3 you could easily put in a patch that favored BWA?

And Answered:

Let’s review today’s Crystals and Weapon Tuning change and what caused it. With Patch 5.2.2, we made a change so everyone could take advantage of the Weapon Tunings across their account. We did that by adding them into Collections [...] but over the past month we found out players were subverting the collection system by using an exploit related to Legacy Weapons [...] [t]hus circumventing the entire collection system and obtaining Weapon Tunings for their legacy without having to pay for it.[...] [T]he loophole needed to be closed and we did that in today’s patch.

Beyond that:

Again where is this explanation? They had to patch an exploit yes but it doesn't explain why they couldn't wait until they had a complete fix that didn't impact on players? It wasn't a game breaking exploit, it could have waited. I would like to hear from Keith himself what the motivation was to put players out instead of waiting to patch it, this was never stated.

You're looking for them to justify their business decisions to your personal satisfaction - and with a player base of hundreds of thousands of players that's a game they'd never win. There will always be people who will ask "but why are you doing that instead of doing this instead?" ad inifinitum, or even just "Why?" "Why?" "Why?".

Also:

Question / Concern: "What are you doing about the fact that people are losing credits because of this change?"

Answer: "We are fixing it, in Update 5.4, so that Collection Unlocked Crystals and Tunings can be transferred using your legacy weapons."

That's not answering the question at all as to what they are doing about people losing credits now [...]

The takeaway from your line of reasoning is they don't give a **** about their players losing credits and we should have even less trust in them to get things right in the future.

Since when is "we're fixing this in the next patch" somehow "not answering the question" of what they're doing about a current problem in the game? Or indicating that they "don't give a **** about" the issue?

That would make no sense in the context of:

• "Hey, this raid boss is broken."
  
• "We're fixing it in the next patch so it won't be broken anymore."
  
• "That's not an answer, the raid boss is broken now, what are you doing about it? Clearly you don't give a **** about players not being able to fight this boss!"
  

---

• "Hey, my Heroic Moment abilities aren't available even though I have them unlocked."
  
• "We're fixing it in the next patch so that you'll have access to them again."
  
• "That's not an answer, the abilities aren't working now, what are you doing about it? Clearly you don't give a **** about players not being able to use these abilities!"
  

---

• "Hey I can't donate this Decoration to my Guild."
  
• "We're fixing it in the next patch so that you'll be able to donate it."
  
• "That's not an answer, the Decoration can't be donated now, what are you doing about it? Clearly you don't give a **** about players not being able to donate their Decorations!"
  

So why is this any different?

Asked:

 

And Answered:

Concerns not addressed at all, no reply was given. My post was also after his post so how can they answer something before it was even asked?

Again YOU personally might feel like it's been addressed/answered - I do not, others do not. You are just trying to state your opinion and feelings as though they were fact.

Asked:

 

And Answered:

Not at all answered. They just said it would be fixed in 5.4, now why it couldn't wait. Not why they couldn't put forward a better solution. Not why they couldn't bring forward the proposed solution sooner.

You're looking for them to justify their business decisions to your personal satisfaction - and with a player base of hundreds of thousands of players that's a game they'd never win. There will always be people who will ask "but why are you doing that instead of doing this instead?" ad inifinitum, or even just "Why?" "Why?" "Why?".

Yes a decision that actively affects paying customers, a decision that could sway paying customers from being paying customers or worse move on altogether reducing your hundreds of thousands of players even further. Which I assume you are not indicating is active players? If you are then I would be interested to see how you conclude that in the current state of the game with such little information being released on anything to do with player numbers in recent times.

Also:

 

Since when is "we're fixing this in the next patch" somehow "not answering the question" of what they're doing about a current problem in the game? Or indicating that they "don't give a **** about" the issue?

Was the question - "are you fixing this?" or "when will this be fixed?". No it wasn't thus the questions and concerns voiced have not been answered in the slightest. If you personally don't want justification for things that's fine, that does not mean others do not or that you could convince them that they do not or that said justifications or answers to toher questions have been given.

You need to stop confusing your personal assessment of the situation as though it were the factual state of the situation.

That would make no sense in the context of:

 

• "Hey, this raid boss is broken."
  
• "We're fixing it in the next patch so it won't be broken anymore."
  
• "That's not an answer, the raid boss is broken now, what are you doing about it? Clearly you don't give a **** about players not being able to fight this boss!"
  

---

• "Hey, my Heroic Moment abilities aren't available even though I have them unlocked."
  
• "We're fixing it in the next patch so that you'll have access to them again."
  
• "That's not an answer, the abilities aren't working now, what are you doing about it? Clearly you don't give a **** about players not being able to use these abilities!"
  

---

• "Hey I can't donate this Decoration to my Guild."
  
• "We're fixing it in the next patch so that you'll be able to donate it."
  
• "That's not an answer, the Decoration can't be donated now, what are you doing about it? Clearly you don't give a **** about players not being able to donate their Decorations!"
  

 

So why is this any different?

In any of your examples are these examples of something being done on purpose and by design that are then affecting paying customers and their ability to use an item they paid for? Are you saying they broke the boss on purpose? Did they purposely stop players heroic moments working? Did they purposely stop decorations from working? Answer - no they did not.

In this case they have purposely made a change that has affected people, knowing full well people would not be able to move ANY CM crystals or tunings between legacy items - meaning if they paid for those items - too bad you still can't move them. Too bad you now have to pay credit costs to remove the items.

Now in the discourse of open communication and justification I don't think it's at all too much to expect some justification on why they couldn't wait, why they couldn't do things differently or why they can't bring the suggested fix forward.

In your world those questions are no doubt answered but from what I've read, that not the case factually.

Concerns not addressed at all, no reply was given. My post was also after his post so how can they answer something before it was even asked?

 

Again YOU personally might feel like it's been addressed/answered - I do not, others do not. You are just trying to state your opinion and feelings as though they were fact.

 

Not at all answered. They just said it would be fixed in 5.4, now why it couldn't wait. Not why they couldn't put forward a better solution. Not why they couldn't bring forward the proposed solution sooner.

 

Yes a decision that actively affects paying customers, a decision that could sway paying customers from being paying customers or worse move on altogether reducing your hundreds of thousands of players even further. Which I assume you are not indicating is active players? If you are then I would be interested to see how you conclude that in the current state of the game with such little information being released on anything to do with player numbers in recent times.

Was the question - "are you fixing this?" or "when will this be fixed?". No it wasn't thus the questions and concerns voiced have not been answered in the slightest. If you personally don't want justification for things that's fine, that does not mean others do not or that you could convince them that they do not or that said justifications or answers to toher questions have been given.

 

You need to stop confusing your personal assessment of the situation as though it were the factual state of the situation.

You continue to conflate "I am not happy with the answer" with "they have not given an answer". As has been repeatedly pointed out:

They did. They said that it will be adjusting it in 5.4. There isn't really much else to say.

He replied. It's in page 2 of the dev tracker. I'll paste it though so you know, you don't have work to find it. Cause I'm helpful like that.

 

Change to Cartel Color Crystals and Weapon Tunings with Legacy Weapons | 07.11.2017, 11:42 PM

Hey all,

 

Let’s review today’s Crystals and Weapon Tuning change and what caused it. With Patch 5.2.2, we made a change so everyone could take advantage of the Weapon Tunings across their account. We did that by adding them into Collections. This is the same process we use for Flairs, Armor Sets, Mounts, Crystals, Weapons, Pets, and more. This appeared to be a very welcomed change, but over the past month we found out players were subverting the collection system by using an exploit related to Legacy Weapons. Sure, you can argue it’s been that way for a long time, but Weapon Tunings were new and being able to use them across your entire account is a cool benefit.

 

What happened is some players would add the Tuning to a legacy weapon, send to an Alt, remove it on that Alt, re-add it to the weapon, which would then incorrectly unlock it in Collections on that toon. They would then send that weapon to all of their toons and perform the same process. Thus circumventing the entire collection system and obtaining Weapon Tunings for their legacy without having to pay for it. As everyone has pointed out, Crystals sold via the Cartel Market could also be collection unlocked this way, and in fact, as players have clearly stated in this thread, they’ve been doing that for a very long time.

 

We did not impact the ability to use Crystals and Tunings in Legacy Weapons and we did not prevent you transferring mods, hilts, barrels, augments, or enhancements, through your legacy weapons (which I do all the time). This change did create a situation for all of us who are using Collections properly where there is an added step (and credit cost) to moving weapons. Our plan with Patch 5.4 in August is to resolve this new issue by allowing Collection Unlocked Crystals and Tunings to be transferred using your legacy weapons as you did previously (no cost/no removing of the items first).

 

As most of you already know, we do not communicate details about exploits and typically only acknowledge their existence after a fix has been deployed. In this case, we included it with our Patch Notes yesterday so you knew ahead of time what we were doing today. I also know this makes some of you unhappy, but the loophole needed to be closed and we did that in today’s patch.

 

---Keith

(And as to "My post was also after his post so how can they answer something before it was even asked?": other people were already raising the same issue before he posted.)

Other players get banned, items removed for exploiting - why should this be any different?

How do you pull out the legitimate players who didn't even know that they could unlock tunings in this manner against the backdrop of players who did? I'm certain you would end up with false positives. Although I agree they could certainly find those players who have deliberately done this across their whole legacy, it still leaves a certain grey area.

In this instance I think BioWare have chosen the high road and just closed the loophole, especially as it's been going on for so long with crystals.

I do agree though, why should this be any different?

I'm a white knight for criticizing BWA's communication? Someone clearly doesn't know the meaning of the terms they are using lol.

You are under a false assumption, they are under no obligation at all to communicate anything with you, especially as it relates to exploits in "their" game. The communication you do receive is done as a courtesy. The Dev team explained themselves, which as we previously went over they didn't have to, so perhaps you should just thank them and go about your way.

Also btw they were using the term correctly.

white knight

/ˈˌ(h)wīt ˈnīt/

noun

a person or thing that comes to someone's aid.

Although there is a better term they could have used. Troll maybe. Were you just trolling?

You continue to conflate "I am not happy with the answer" with "they have not given an answer". As has been repeatedly pointed out:

You continue to misconstrue the questions being asked solely to support your rather strange view of "yes they have answered it", at this stage I can't even fathom what stake you have in any of this or why you would so intensely push to state they've addressed questions they clearly have not.

All you are doing is defending a lack of genuine discussion (and reasonable communication on this particular issue) which benefits no one at all. Players remain unhappy, affected by the issue and in the dark whilst your point of view gains ... exactly nothing.

(And as to "My post was also after his post so how can they answer something before it was even asked?": other people were already raising the same issue before he posted.)

People were already raising the issue asking for clarification on the "whys" before he even posted? Wow they must be psychic or something then right to already know what action BWA were going to take to then question that action ...

Maybe stop posting for the sake of posting because your argument is starting to get quite illogical now.

How do you pull out the legitimate players who didn't even know that they could unlock tunings in this manner against the backdrop of players who did? I'm certain you would end up with false positives. Although I agree they could certainly find those players who have deliberately done this across their whole legacy, it still leaves a certain grey area.

True enough but then that's always been the case with exploits. Remember Ziost and people getting actioned/warned for effectively getting guild summoned?

I think it would be fairly obvious to see those who genuinely targeted the exploit but it would require manual work and in regards to dealing with exploits that's something that BWA have seemingly never been too interested in doing.

You are under a false assumption, they are under no obligation at all to communicate anything with you, especially as it relates to exploits in "their" game. The communication you do receive is done as a courtesy. The Dev team explained themselves, which as we previously went over they didn't have to, so perhaps you should just thank them and go about your way.

Stop right there strawman - who ever said they obliged? I've every right to request and insist on something, they have every right to ignore me. At no point was it insinuated they have an obligation to do so - simply pointed out not doing so will cause more ill will amongst the community towards them.

Also btw they were using the term correctly.

 

white knight

/ˈˌ(h)wīt ˈnīt/

noun

a person or thing that comes to someone's aid.

I am coming to someone's aid now? Heh ok.

Although there is a better term they could have used. Troll maybe. Were you just trolling?

Perhaps if you knew the definition of this term also the answer would be self explanatory. Funny how people always revert to the "troll" or "white knight" terminology when they can't hold a reasoned argument, kind of childish really.

Our plan with Patch 5.4 in August is to resolve this new issue by allowing Collection Unlocked Crystals and Tunings to be transferred using your legacy weapons as you did previously (no cost/no removing of the items first).

Color crystals and weapon tunings which have been account unlocked can now be moved through Legacy Weapons.

Thank you for taking the time to fix this issue in 5.4.

Thank you for taking the time to fix this issue in 5.4.

 

Yea, 4 years or so later I'm glad they got around to it.

Easier now to just leave the crystals I made in there and not mess with the cartel market ones at all.

Yea, 4 years or so later I'm glad they got around to it.

 

Easier now to just leave the crystals I made in there and not mess with the cartel market ones at all.

Pretty sure it's a lot closer to four months than four years... This was a rather recent change, not a long-standing bug.

Yea, 4 years or so later I'm glad they got around to it.

 

Easier now to just leave the crystals I made in there and not mess with the cartel market ones at all.

Exactly lol. Who would use a CM crystal now? All mine have been converted...not changing back ever.

Pretty sure it's a lot closer to four months than four years... This was a rather recent change, not a long-standing bug.

Being able to move them around freely had been available for 4 years, until 4 months ago.

Exactly lol. Who would use a CM crystal now? All mine have been converted...not changing back ever.

Same! I'm so over CM crystals. I have plenty of cool legacy crystals and non-CM crystals I can use in legacy weapons. As for tunings, I have no plans to ever spend 400 CC to unlock in collections. I used to have a damaged tuning permanently attached to my legacy Furious blaster, but no more.