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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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I really shouldn't have checked the DA:I forums to see what the latest word was... seeing the likes of Gaider and Sheryl Chee actually giving answers (even to the stupid threads) and even making jokes even though there's a long time before release and things can change... and then there's this.

 

<snip>

 

Not only is it a depressing contrast, but it also kills the argument that "BioWare don't talk about things before they're done."

 

What story spoilers are they (Gaider and Chee) giving out?

 

Are SGRs story content?

 

Is there a conclusion to be drawn from this?

Edited by ThatGnome
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What story spoilers are they (Gaider and Chee) giving out?

 

Are SGRs story content?

 

Is there a conclusion to be drawn from this?

 

They're not giving anything away yet, but the fact is they are very active on the BSN, discussing things about DA3, such as it exist at the moment and by extension any issues that arise.

 

The conclusion is - David Gaider is a god among men, and if he was over on this side of the Bioware fence, SGRAs would't be an issue. Even if we didn't have them yet, he wouldn't be hiding away refusing to talk to us, and most importatnlty, he's the first one to shout down (with his amazing word skills) the more rabid of the anti-crowd.

 

I love Gaider - there I said it - inatotallyplatonicwaycushebeingamanandmenotbeingintomen :D

 

Sheryl Chee and the rest of the Bioware Canada crew are all pretty awesome too - even if you don't agree with everything they say, they at least engage with the fans and stand up for the 'minorities'.

Edited by MoogleNut
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The one character I am most definitely not interested in having an SGRA (or a opposite-gender, for that matter), is my inquisitor. You get either Andronikus Revel or Ashara Zavros, and that is it, and I simply cannot stand either of them. Their personalities are like sandpaper on an open wound. My opinion is that it might have been deliberate on BW's part, so you could safely level at least one character without same-gender romance being an issue. And wow, is it ever not an issue in this case.

 

That aside, the more time passes, the more inclined I am to just proceed with other toons, regardless of gender - it is looking like same-gender romance is wishful thinking, something else that's going to sit on the back burner until it boils away completely.

 

I think Andronikus is sexy though. And I was shocked seeing Revan, what a hot piece of pixels. Too bad he can't be romanced.

 

But on a serious note. I don't see how they're going to adjust current companions. What would happen to everyone's legacy unlocks? Would they be reset with all companion dialogue? Moreover it doesn't add anything new, it just changes what already was, and that's a waste of everything. I'm not holding back on companion quests. I think it's highly unlikely anything will be changed there.

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I think Andronikus is sexy though. And I was shocked seeing Revan, what a hot piece of pixels. Too bad he can't be romanced.

 

But on a serious note. I don't see how they're going to adjust current companions. What would happen to everyone's legacy unlocks? Would they be reset with all companion dialogue? Moreover it doesn't add anything new, it just changes what already was, and that's a waste of everything. I'm not holding back on companion quests. I think it's highly unlikely anything will be changed there.

 

This is why some people are holding off levelling characters or completing companion quests. Some people might consider it unlikely that they will alter existing companions, but we simply don't know that. Not for certain, no matter how likely or unlikely we think it may be. Some people don't want to risk locking themselves out of SGR content on existing characters, since there is a chance that if they do it with existing companions we won't be able to somehow reset companion conversations we have already completed.

 

This comes back to the lack of information. We can speculate all we like but in the end we just don't know. It might be with existing companions or it might not. We might be able to reset conversations or we might not. We might be "safe" if we stopped levelling characters at a certain point or we might have to start all over again. We might have to reach a certain level to unlock a new SGR companion. And so on.

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It might be with existing companions or it might not. We might be able to reset conversations or we might not. We might be "safe" if we stopped levelling characters at a certain point or we might have to start all over again. We might have to reach a certain level to unlock a new SGR companion. And so on.

 

Yeah, more information on this would be REALLY fantastic. I'm now seriously hoping for the chance to reset companion conversations as well as a gender switch. Jedi Knight rambling ahead:

 

I just finished talking to Lord Scourge with my knight, and I swear, there were SO MANY conversations with him that felt like they were bordering on flirting. I absolutely love him, and my knight is dark, so they'd probably fit well together...except my knight is female. I'm thinking that's why there wasn't any actual flirting available, or the ability to console him in regards to ****** immortality trade-offs...oh man, what if in the romance you get to help him with it? That'd be awesome.

 

SO YEAH. Conversation reset, and gender switch because playing a knight was a miserable experience for me (despite the good story, Republic makes me cringe and I cannot stand melee), and I never want to go through it all again.

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What story spoilers are they (Gaider and Chee) giving out?

 

Are SGRs story content?

 

Is there a conclusion to be drawn from this?

 

I'll point you to these posts.

 

I just logged into my Jedi Knight thinking I'd play her for a little while before dinner... Then I spotted Kira standing on the bridge of the ship, with her "talk to me" sign over her head. I sighed and then logged out.

 

I have a few characters in the same situation at the moment. I wish they'd hurry up and tell us how SGRA are going to work for older characters. :(

 

Same here. I have a level 50 female sorc and haven't had any talks with Ashara yet. Waiting in hopes for SGRA here.

And my female warrior is in wait to talk to Jaesa.

 

We're not asking for the scripts - most of the frustation brewing stems from not knowing how it will work.

 

- Do we have to stop levelling and/or talking to companions to see it?

- Are people who hit 50 and/or finished the companion arcs out of luck?

 

If they are dismissing "Reset, resume, or reroll?" with "Dude, spoilers!", that would be very obstinate indeed.

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The one character I am most definitely not interested in having an SGRA (or a opposite-gender, for that matter), is my inquisitor. You get either Andronikus Revel or Ashara Zavros, and that is it, and I simply cannot stand either of them. Their personalities are like sandpaper on an open wound. My opinion is that it might have been deliberate on BW's part, so you could safely level at least one character without same-gender romance being an issue. And wow, is it ever not an issue in this case.

 

That aside, the more time passes, the more inclined I am to just proceed with other toons, regardless of gender - it is looking like same-gender romance is wishful thinking, something else that's going to sit on the back burner until it boils away completely.

So agree. My SI is the one character I had zero trouble worrying about romances on. Old Andy does nothing for me and Ashara just annoys me. "Don't make me go against my teachings". Lady, I'm Sith. Even if I lean towards the light side I do it solely for my own reasons, not to appease some code of the lightside or something.

 

Which is a real pity since I love the voice actress. They just gave her the most annoying lines and put them on "Repeat".

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I'll point you to these posts.

 

 

 

 

 

We're not asking for the scripts - most of the frustation brewing stems from not knowing how it will work.

 

- Do we have to stop levelling and/or talking to companions to see it?

- Are people who hit 50 and/or finished the companion arcs out of luck?

 

If they are dismissing "Reset, resume, or reroll?" with "Dude, spoilers!", that would be very obstinate indeed.

Exactly. We (at least I think the majority of us) simply want to know how it works, not every little detail. What information we are asking for is so minor it would have little to no impact spoilerwise. Yet they won't even address those simple little requests for info and haven't for a year now.

 

And to top it off until recently we were allowed all of one thread hidden in Story and Lore. Numerous Big Butt Jedi Robes threads, countless music loop threads, hood toggle, chat bubbles ect and this topic is only allowed one (now two) thread(s) and we have gotten NO official word, unlike almost every other topic.

 

Is it any wonder people are frustrated?

 

And as has been proven yet again by the more action bars thing, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Time to get to squeaking louder I guess.

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And as has been proven yet again by the more action bars thing, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Time to get to squeaking louder I guess.

 

Back at the beginning of the year before I left you couldn't get much squeakier than we were. This topic is simply handled differently than any other topic on the forums. BW isn't going to talk about it no matter what, why do you think we've all be sequestered in the back alley of the forums? This BW team doesn't want to hear about it, they certainly don't want to talk about it, and I imagine they would be more than pleased if we all simply went away. Its passive, but it is what it is.

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And as has been proven yet again by the more action bars thing, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Time to get to squeaking louder I guess.

 

"Anyone else hear mice?"

"They've been scratching around in the crawl-space for a year, just ignore it."

"If you say so... hey look, someone wants to know what's in Hall's mug. I better add that to his follow-up!"

 

(If I joke about that question enough, maybe it'll stop bothering me that they answered it. Maybe.)

 

Edit - taking another stab at the PM thing, my proactive/reactive switch finally felt like spinning again.

Edited by Palar
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"Anyone else hear mice?"

"They've been scratching around in the crawl-space for a year, just ignore it."

"If you say so... hey look, someone wants to know what's in Hall's mug. I better add that to his follow-up!".

 

I think the problem is the culture just hasn't caught up with the times yet.

 

Imagine for a moment if you will that SW:TOR launched without any black people in the game. No black npc's, no companion customizations for black companions and no black skin tones for players to use, not a single character in the game being darker than a swarthy Italian. The outcry would have been just as loud as ours was from the players, but gaming magazines and review sites would have picked up on it and blasted EA/BW about it, I wouldn't doubt if even a few mainstream media outlets would have ended up running stories about it.

 

EA would have been forced to come out and issue statements and apologies and promises and you can bet they would have fixed it in no time flat. Hell it would have been priority number one till it was fixed. It just isn't seen a politically correct or socially acceptable to be prejudiced against people of African descent. This game would never have been allowed to launch like that and you certainly would never have seen someone at BW stupid enough to say "There are no blacks in Star Wars!".

 

Now in the case of SGRA's I think it is still seen as being somewhat socially acceptable to be homophobic, just so long as you don't talk about it. All EA and BW really need to do at this point is never talk about it again and far as they are concerned the issue is resolved. No gaming media is going to pick up on it, we certainly won't be seeing any pressure external from the industry. All we have is this little thread tucked away in the back of the forums that they can easily ignore. Doesn't make it any less bigoted or discriminatory but so long as they don't talk about it, its seen as "okay".

Edited by Nozybidaj
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I think the problem is the culture just hasn't caught up with the times yet.

 

Imagine for a moment if you will that SW:TOR launched without any black people in the game. No black npc's, no companion customizations for black companions and no black skin tones for players to use, not a single character in the game being darker than a swarthy Italian. The outcry would have been just as loud as ours was from the players, but gaming magazines and review sites would have picked up on it and blasted EA/BW about it, I wouldn't doubt if even a few mainstream media outlets would have ended up running stories about it.

 

EA would have been forced to come out and issue statements and apologies and promises and you can bet they would have fixed it in no time flat. Hell it would have been priority number one till it was fixed. It just isn't seen a politically correct or socially acceptable to be prejudiced against people of African descent. This game would never have been allowed to launch like that and you certainly would never have seen someone at BW stupid enough to say "There are no blacks in Star Wars!".

 

Now in the case of SGRA's I think it is still seen as being somewhat socially acceptable to be homophobic, just so long as you don't talk about it. All EA and BW really need to do at this point is never talk about it again and far as they are concerned the issue is resolved. No gaming media is going to pick up on it, we certainly won't be seeing any pressure external from the industry. All we have is this little thread tucked away in the back of the forums that they can easily ignore. Doesn't make it any less bigoted or discriminatory but so long as they don't talk about it, its seen as "okay".

 

I don't think Bioware is being homophobic, just stupidly tight lipped.

 

I do see your point, however.

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I don't think Bioware is being homophobic, just stupidly tight lipped.

 

I do see your point, however.

 

Well, I guess that would be case solely based on one's point of view: is Bioware treating this content differently only because of the sexualities involved? Has that resulted in this content being delayed/mishandled solely because of the sexualities involved?*

 

 

*I add this because if they had written, recorded, coded and implemented SGRA's at the same time as OGRA's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Well, I guess that would be case solely based on one's point of view: is Bioware treating this content differently only because of the sexualities involved? Has that resulted in this content being delayed/mishandled solely because of the sexualities involved?*

 

 

*I add this because if they had written, recorded, coded and implemented SGRA's at the same time as OGRA's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

I will agree that "homophobia" probably doesn't apply.

 

"Heterosexism" would be the better term.

Edited by stuffystuffs
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Well, I guess that would be case solely based on one's point of view: is Bioware treating this content differently only because of the sexualities involved? Has that resulted in this content being delayed/mishandled solely because of the sexualities involved?*

 

The answer is pretty obvious isn't it? ;)

 

 

*I add this because if they had written, recorded, coded and implemented SGRA's at the same time as OGRA's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

If BW had included this content from the start the fact that SGRA's are in the game would never have been an issue. Sure you'd get a handful of people coming to the forum "OMG My dude companion just hit on me." then everyone would have laughed at them and told them to quit clicking the [Flirt] options and that would have been the end of it.

 

BW created this mess when they made the decision to exclude players seeking SGRA's from the game's offered content. In the end the sole responsibility for this lies at BW's feet.

 

I will agree that "homophobia" probably doesn't apply.

 

"Heterosexism" would be the better term.

 

I don't particularly see a difference in those two terms. Its just word play to try and avoid being offensive to the offenders. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck. :p

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I don't particularly see a difference in those two terms. Its just word play to try and avoid being offensive to the offenders. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck. :p

 

That's really just a question of semantics. 'Heterosexism' (to me, at least) implies a concentration on heterosexuality as the be all, end all, to the detriment of other sexualities (as we have here, in SWTOR), whereas 'homophobia' (again, to me) means a definite action against someone or thing (action, idea etc.) that is or is perceived to be homosexual.

 

In this case, Bioware has made a definite action against SGRA's - which, by definition are an idea of homosexuality - but they have also crafted a world which is, in its entirety, heterosexual. I'd say that both terms apply to SWTOR; that Bioware's handling of same-sex content is discriminatory, therefore they are arguably handling this subject and content in a homophobic manner and that the game, as it is currently (and as it could possibly be after the introduction of SGRA's for companions if they do not also introduce outside [Flirt] options) is heterosexist (or heterocentric, being that heterosexuality is the entire focus and that all things are secondary).

 

 

Edit: To Stuffystuffs, I agree with you that it does feel like a form of erasure. It's a slightly unwieldy term, though, so I don't like to use it unless I'm sure that erasure is taking place. (Like if there had been lore from before release that said "X is bi/gay" or what-have-you and on release X was straight.)

Edited by Tatile
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I don't particularly see a difference in those two terms. Its just word play to try and avoid being offensive to the offenders. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck. :p

 

"Heterosexism" is a broader term that includes "homophobia" as a form of "heterosexism".

 

I don't see this quite as an "unreasonable fear of homosexuality" but heterosexual relationships (and the players wanting to see this content) have been treated significantly better than homosexual ones (and those wanting them in game). Well, the latter hasn't been treated at all :(

 

So, it seems more like an 'erasure' type of thing going on which I think fits better into that broader category as it seems to stem not from fear but from not giving a crap (as long as there are heterosexual romances and people like them AND WE AREN'T LOSING MONEY over lack of SGRAs, whatevs).

 

That's really just a question of semantics. 'Heterosexism' (to me, at least) implies a concentration on heterosexuality as the be all, end all, to the detriment of other sexualities (as we have here, in SWTOR), whereas 'homophobia' (again, to me) means a definite action against someone or thing (action, idea etc.) that is or is perceived to be homosexual.

 

Yeah, I guess you could say it depends on how you look at it.

 

...heterosexist (or heterocentric, being that heterosexuality is the entire focus and that all things are secondary).

 

By "secondary" you mean "non-existent" XD

Edited by stuffystuffs
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"

By "secondary" you mean "non-existent" XD

 

Yeah... I was going to give a benefit of the doubt of marginalisation* (horrible to think that THAT is positive in comparison to what we have already) should SGRA's be, but world [Flirts] not, but you're right. Bioware seems to be very all or nothing at the moment, and nothing is pretty damn easy when you're as lazy as this lot seems to be.

 

 

*i.e. existing, but not being in the centre

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....Numerous Big Butt Jedi Robes threads, countless music loop threads, hood toggle, chat bubbles ... more action bars thing,

 

Again, example after example of things that are completely different from what we're asking about. These are all really small, minor issues with a large amount of concern behind them. They are extremely easy to address, because they are one question issues. There is no big implementation concern with how hood toggles are going to be handled. It's just "Are they coming?" That's it. These issues are also all much smaller in development scope than our issue, and are likely easier to get solid answers about because of that.

 

Further, none of those have anything to do with story.

 

Scale and content type, those are the two things to keep in mind when making comparisons to our issue. If they aren't even in the same ballpark, the comparison is invalid.

 

I'd like to see a compilation of all developer/CM communications to the community about HK-51 in the time frame of Launch until the official announcement of his inclusion in Section X. That would be a pretty direct comparison. Unfortunately, I unsubscribed to wait for SGRAs during most of that time, so I don't really know how it was handled. I'd be pretty surprised if they did much beyond tease that he was coming.

 

Before I said to be patient and reasonable. I'd actually settle for just reasonable. If you want to push as hard as you reasonably can, writing letters about the lack of info on promised content to Massively, MMORPG.com, Darth Hater, Gizmodo, who ever, and asking them to call up EA's press offices and demand information, more power to you.

 

But, I really wish you guys would stop pushing this discrimination angle. I think it's dangerous and most likely inaccurate. I don't feel like BioWare would be any more forthcoming about any other project of similar scope, and I've seen nothing to indicate I'm wrong about that. In fact, I've very rarely seen ANY game developer be very forthcoming about projects of this scope.

 

Yes, guys, I understand the importance of our questions. Yes, I have multiple classes I refuse to level or even create until we have some answers. I get it, I really do. I want this as much as anyone. It's just not very fair to turn what is most likely just a disappointing development snafu into a malicious case of discrimination.

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Yes, guys, I understand the importance of our questions. Yes, I have multiple classes I refuse to level or even create until we have some answers. I get it, I really do. I want this as much as anyone. It's just not very fair to turn what is most likely just a disappointing development snafu into a malicious case of discrimination.

 

I would argue that there is "discrimination" when comparing OGRAs and SGRAs in game. One is a possible option and was included at launch...the other not. They have treated these differently and have treated those that want to play OGRAs versus SGRAs differently (mainly by actually providing the option for the former). There's not necessarily a malicious intent behind this but it is what it is.

 

Now, if you are thinking of "discrimination" as "I hate gays and want to screw them over by not adding SGRAs" then no, I don't believe that's the case either.

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I'd like to see a compilation of all developer/CM communications to the community about HK-51 in the time frame of Launch until the official announcement of his inclusion in Section X. That would be a pretty direct comparison. Unfortunately, I unsubscribed to wait for SGRAs during most of that time, so I don't really know how it was handled. I'd be pretty surprised if they did much beyond tease that he was coming.

 

Not shortly after HK-51 was announced, it came to light that players would need (and this was reported in a magazine, then confirmed on site) a level 50 character and a character of "mid-level" of the opposite faction, on the same server. This allowed players to make decisions about their play, informed of how those decisions might impact their ability to acquire HK-51 when he was released. Little more than that was said until he dropped on the PTS, but given that that information is similar to what we need to know about SGRA's, it's... interesting.

 

The information is similar to the fact that it affected people's decisions of the class/es they need to roll in order to see the content they wanted. HK-51 is available to all classes, that was made clear from the start. We don't know if SGRA's will be made available to all classes. HK-51 would be available, regardless of quests - we don't know if SGRA's will be available to those who have progressed past meeting their intended romance partner or if SGRA's will be applied retroactively. We knew HK-51 was a companion droid from the HK line - and this admittedly a stretch - we don't know which companions (if any) will be available for SGRA.

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I would argue that there is "discrimination" when comparing OGRAs and SGRAs in game. One is a possible option and was included at launch...the other not. They have treated these differently and have treated those that want to play OGRAs versus SGRAs differently (mainly by actually providing the option for the former). There's not necessarily a malicious intent behind this but it is what it is.

 

Now, if you are thinking of "discrimination" as "I hate gays and want to screw them over by not adding SGRAs" then no, I don't believe that's the case either.

 

Maliciousness and intent are really irrelevant when the discrimination still exists. Whether we have no SGRA's because they were complete idiots when developing companion romances and just didn't think about it or because someone up the decision making chain is a giant bigot (I actually think given all the evidence this is more likely) the fact remains either way we still have no SGRA's in the game a year out from launch and nothing on the horizon for the foreseeable future.

 

This is baseline class story content that without question should have been in the game day 1. My Jedi Knight has been sitting in Coruscant for nearly 11 months now* because I am unable to play my class story. I can't rationalize any way this is seen as acceptable by anyone.

 

*Actually coming back after being gone so long I just went ahead and deleted said character and started over. Point still stands though.

Edited by Nozybidaj
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This is baseline class story content that without question should have been in the game day 1. My Jedi Knight has been sitting in Coruscant for nearly 11 months now* because I am unable to play my class story. I can't rationalize any way this is seen as acceptable by anyone.

 

Well, I don't think it's acceptable (I have characters I want to play as well but must wait for more information on this).

 

I was just pointing out that discrimination isn't always explicit and done with malicious intent.

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Not shortly after HK-51 was announced, it came to light that players would need (and this was reported in a magazine, then confirmed on site) a level 50 character and a character of "mid-level" of the opposite faction, on the same server. This allowed players to make decisions about their play, informed of how those decisions might impact their ability to acquire HK-51 when he was released. Little more than that was said until he dropped on the PTS, but given that that information is similar to what we need to know about SGRA's, it's... interesting.

 

The information is similar to the fact that it affected people's decisions of the class/es they need to roll in order to see the content they wanted. HK-51 is available to all classes, that was made clear from the start. We don't know if SGRA's will be made available to all classes. HK-51 would be available, regardless of quests - we don't know if SGRA's will be available to those who have progressed past meeting their intended romance partner or if SGRA's will be applied retroactively. We knew HK-51 was a companion droid from the HK line - and this admittedly a stretch - we don't know which companions (if any) will be available for SGRA.

 

Hopefully, they will give us similar details when they announce the patch that's going to include SGR's, or at the very least, shortly after. If this is the case though, my hope of them coming with Makeb is draining rapidly, as much of what that particular content-expansion includes has already been revealed. Then again, Makeb will likely be more of a pack than a patch so there is still at least some hope that it will come with SGR's. They have yet to reveal wether or not it will include a continuation of our personal storyline, after all.

 

I shall have to keep my hopes at a reasonable level, so as not to have them crushed too terribly. Worst-best case scenario would be if all of the current romance-choices become available for SGR, but I find out that I missed the opportunity to raise the flag with Ashara right after recruiting her. I ignored Andronikus's [flirt] options during his recruitment mission and after my first conversation with him on my ship, they stopped appearing completely. I just had my first on-ship conversation with Ashara and now I'm too terrified to play my inquisitor any further for fear of being faced with the prospect of having to reroll in order to get the chance to properly corrupt her impressionable mind.

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