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Is It just me? Are Scouts a bit OP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Is It just me? Are Scouts a bit OP?

ObiWanJabroni's Avatar


ObiWanJabroni
12.13.2013 , 05:31 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
lol well if you had bothered to read everything gavin was saying. You would have realized he suggested adding in some stealth features for scouts, as well as that having the game dodge for you like in ground combat is dumb. Especially when your the one who is suppose to fly the ship. I would even go as far as making DF last longer. Besides its a freaking scout, they are not designed for survivability they are designed for recon, and quick in and out strike attacks. If you want survivability use a ship with heavier armor and shields.

If however you are so dead set against actually learning to manually evade attacks against you then the only balanced approach would be to give all ships the same evasion/accuracy stats.
And by manually evading attacks, do you mean by using your roll which has a 30% evasion mechanic?
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AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
12.13.2013 , 05:46 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
lol well if you had bothered to read everything gavin was saying. You would have realized he suggested adding in some stealth features for scouts, as well as that having the game dodge for you like in ground combat is dumb.
Why is it dumb? The evasion mechanic is not fundamentely different from any other armor mechanic. Its rng based but in the end, a 30% deflection on shields which cant be bypassed would have the same effect over a longer period of time. To be honest, i would much rather take an 30% unpassable deflection than evasion.
But you are arguing to remove evasion entirely and therefore nerf the scouts surivability which is already the worst of any shiptype. So this has nothing to do with RNG, the hole problem lies in your inability to kill scouts quickly with overgunned flying tank.

And as for 'stealth futures', not thanks. We already have sensors dampening upgrades and there will be dedicated Stealth ships in the future. Scouts are superiority fighters and i want it to stay that way.

Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
Especially when your the one who is suppose to fly the ship. I would even go as far as making DF last longer. Besides its a freaking scout, they are not designed for survivability they are designed for recon, and quick in and out strike attacks. If you want survivability use a ship with heavier armor and shields.
True, they are not designed for survivability. Thats why they have weaker shields and less hullstrength and are much easier to kill, even with evasion.
But they are designed to be the prime dogfighter in the game. They are the superoirity plattform. Thats what you keep ignoring. They are not just recon and speed. They are supposed to kill strike fighters in dogfights.

Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
If however you are so dead set against actually learning to manually evade attacks against you then the only balanced approach would be to give all ships the same evasion/accuracy stats.
All ships can buff evasion stats! Geez, do you play GSF at all?
Rycer/Star Guards have 5% basic evasion, Quells/Pikes 9%. You can equip a +6% companion. And Quells/Pikes and Gunships even have the damn option do upgrade Lightweigth Armor!
You think Scouts are OP because they have a base evasion of 10%? For real??
Just fly a Pike if you like evasion so much and be done with it.
No seriously, if you want the same evasion armor i want the option to equiop Heavy Laser Weapons on my NovaDive. Afterall its OP if others have bigger guns.
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ObiWanJabroni's Avatar


ObiWanJabroni
12.13.2013 , 05:52 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Wouldn't mind if it were greater baseline, tbh. And it isn't awfully reliable, considering how every ship class has access to armour penetration of sorts.
I'll agree it does seem kind of devalued.

Question, do you take it? Do you take either the static DR bonus or the ability that grants it?
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Troglis's Avatar


Troglis
12.13.2013 , 06:17 AM | #124
Hey ill will totally agree with you that you should be able to equip any blaster or missile you want on any ship, I think that is a great idea. However a scout ship is never a superiority fighter, its a scout. That means its weak and easily destroyed. If it wasn't there would never be a need for anything else. Their sole defense lies in there speed and maneuverability. Having your ship do all your dodging for you so that you can go head to head against a heavily armored and more heavily armed ship so you can win is dumb.

I guess the real issue is that they should have classified scouts as superiority fighters and not as a scout class. Please show me anywhere else where a scout anything is nothing but cannon fodder for more heavily armed and armored anything, in a head to head fight. I will happily agree with you then.

mr_sim's Avatar


mr_sim
12.13.2013 , 07:15 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by AMightyKnight View Post
Yeah sure. So Scouts are supposed to have not only inferior firepower, weaker shields and less hitpoints but also no evasion? Good on. Lets take their speed as well so that everyone can finally catch and oneshot them. Afterall, there are only supposed to be targets for properly overarmored and overpowered strike fighthers Geez
Where are these mythical strikers that can one-shot a scout? You certainly can't mean missiles the hardest single hitter on a striker, they only mostly kill a scout and aren't really part of the evasion mechanic discussion anyway they pretty much hit or get out maneuvered in my experience. so you must be talking about one shotting with Lasers, which I don't see happening either, it still takes many volleys.

Strikers are also not tanks. Yes from the perspective of the scout everything is a tank, just like to me and my 6'-4'" height everyone looks "short". But the real tank is from what I understand, are the bombers.

OP really means "out of balance" and scout pilots are stacking way too well on the kill + medal charts and I can't believe it's simply more skill. Don't say kill/medal hunters don't do objectives, kills are still part of objectives. the fact is requisition rewards are based on medals afaik. which is also dumb because scouts are going to cap out on upgrades faster too, then what do they do?

SawneyRath's Avatar


SawneyRath
12.13.2013 , 07:16 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by ObiWanJabroni View Post
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

First of all, lets do a breakdown of the flashfire/sting and the other scout side by side.

Shield Regen Rate-
Sting/Flashfire: 74.8
Novadive/Blackbolt: 104.0

Max Shield Capacity-
1040 for each

Max Hull-
Sting/Flashfire: 1026
Novadive/Blackbolt: 950

Engine Power Capacity-
Sting/Flashfire: 100
Novadive/Blackbolt: 108

Engine Regen Rate-
Sting/Flashfire: 5.4/sec
Novadive/Blackbolt: 5.0/sec

Sensor detection is 2k higher in the Novadive/Blackbolt at 19.5k without buffs from abilities or companions. The Flashfire/Sting only can boost theirs through companions.

Evasion-
This is the tricky one. Stock with no abilities slotted all of them are 10%. With the abilities slotted they come with, the Flashfire/Sting has 25% without using cooldowns, and the Novadive/Blackbolt has 14%. Both however, have access to all the passive buffs, and can therefore be the same.

So in reality, if you think the 76 hull damage and the .4 engine regen rate make it meaner, tougher, etc...go ahead and keep thinking that. The things you EARNED by saving up the 5000 req for are the clusters and the quads. A fair trade off, considering you paid a premium out of the gate before you could even upgrade them.

Now, as for pilots of other ships that want Blaster Overcharge and Distortion Shield nerfed, and essentially nerfing all scout pilots who use those abilities, let me ask you this:

Do you have abilities that raise your accuracy?
Do you have abilities that grant damage reduction?
Can you plan a build that will help to negate the bonuses of scouts?

Answer to all three is most definitely yes. So if scouts are such a problem, why doesn't anyone want to plan a build for them? I'll tell you why. Because you found what you think is the optimal cookie cutter build for highest possible damage and you don't want to make the hard choice of utility vs maximum DPS.

Learn your class.
Play.
Take notes...and we'll revisit this in a few months time when there are more players AND ALL THE SHIPS ARE ACTUALLY IN THE GAME. Another thing most of you don't take into consideration is we aren't playing with a full deck here. There is at least one other ship that still isn't in game, maybe two, if the bomber isn't the cloaker.

HOW IN YOUR RIGHT DAMN MIND CAN YOU BALANCE A GAME WITHOUT ALL THE INFORMATION????
You can't. So stop trying.
Quoted for truth. This player knows what they is talking about. No ship is over powered. Notice how everyone complains about every ship being OP (Strikers less so, but still there are complaints)? Means its pretty balanced.

It all comes down to outfitting your ship to how you fly, and learning to play that style to the best of your ability. There will always be better pilots. There will always be lucky pilots. Situational awareness, team communication, and knowing your role are VITAL to being a good pilot. If you have at the very least those three things covered, you are already a decent pilot and have an advantage over the maxed upgraded of any ship.
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AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
12.13.2013 , 07:38 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
Hey ill will totally agree with you that you should be able to equip any blaster or missile you want on any ship, I think that is a great idea.
Why bother. Just eliminate all differences and have one generic fighter. May the best pilot win.
Yes thats sarcasm, just like the comment about the guns. The game needs different ship types with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
However a scout ship is never a superiority fighter, its a scout.
And you want a Strike Fighter to be a superority fighter. The Intentions behind the Scout design are clear. The ship is build for dogfights and is supposed to engage and defeat Strike Fighters in Close combat. There is nothing wrong with a Scout defeating a Strike Fighter in a dogfight or a Strike Fighter dieing on eating a pod rocket at 1000m. Its your mistake if you bring a gun to a knife fight. Scouts are close in Superority Fighters, Strike Fighters arent.

Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
That means its weak and easily destroyed. If it wasn't there would never be a need for anything else. Their sole defense lies in there speed and maneuverability. Having your ship do all your dodging for you so that you can go head to head against a heavily armored and more heavily armed ship so you can win is dumb.
There a weak and can easily be destroyed. Dont you get it? Their hull strenghth is far less and their shields are much weaker. Scouts can be oneshotted by Gunships!! The couple of percentage points on evasion (exactly 1% if we are talking about the Pike Strike Fighter) helps a bit but overall they are the easiest ship to kill in the entire game. Which they are supposed to be. What they are not supposed to be is not having no survivability at all.
Furthermore, i doubt you have tried the Scout at all. Its total BS to Claim that evasion 'does all your dodging for you'. It does. Some of time. Other times not. You never know what will happen, you cant rely on 30% rng and have to fly accordingly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
I guess the real issue is that they should have classified scouts as superiority fighters and not as a scout class. Please show me anywhere else where a scout anything is nothing but cannon fodder for more heavily armed and armored anything, in a head to head fight. I will happily agree with you then.
Come on, just watch Star Wars, Lighter vessels blow bigger stuff up all the time. Its the nature of the universe.

Quote: Originally Posted by mr_sim View Post
Where are these mythical strikers that can one-shot a scout?
Yeah i wanted to write gunship.

Quote: Originally Posted by mr_sim View Post
Strikers are also not tanks.
Yes, i was using sarcasm. Its the same like ************ about Scouts being hard to hit.
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ObiWanJabroni's Avatar


ObiWanJabroni
12.13.2013 , 07:40 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Troglis View Post
Hey ill will totally agree with you that you should be able to equip any blaster or missile you want on any ship, I think that is a great idea. However a scout ship is never a superiority fighter, its a scout. That means its weak and easily destroyed. If it wasn't there would never be a need for anything else. Their sole defense lies in there speed and maneuverability. Having your ship do all your dodging for you so that you can go head to head against a heavily armored and more heavily armed ship so you can win is dumb.

I guess the real issue is that they should have classified scouts as superiority fighters and not as a scout class. Please show me anywhere else where a scout anything is nothing but cannon fodder for more heavily armed and armored anything, in a head to head fight. I will happily agree with you then.
The Jedi fighters are scout like ships....

I actually see your point. Funny thing is I don't even take the evasion when I fly the scout ships. But, this is a game and you have to realize that balancing issues and mechanics can't be based on the movies.

I mean, if you want to go with the examples from the movies for balancing, I'm assuming next all strike pilots will want to be able to down a Death Star by himself with his proton torpedoes, and gunships should be good for crashing on the surface of it right?

Seriously, the only thing I'm trying to avoid is something like what happened to Mercs and Operatives In 1.2. Bioware has a bad habit of listening to knee jerk reactions when it comes to balancing. The track record in the past was they always go overboard in both directions.

I enjoy this game. I have two years invested in it. I'd like it to last another couple at least. All I'm asking is play this current build for a few weeks before we start swinging the word nerf around like that angry little Japanese girl in Kill Bill was swinging those balls around.
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ObiWanJabroni's Avatar


ObiWanJabroni
12.13.2013 , 07:48 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by AMightyKnight View Post
Why bother. Just eliminate all differences and have one generic fighter. May the best pilot win.
Yes thats sarcasm, just like the comment about the guns. The game needs different ship types with their own advantages and disadvantages.
Hey man, wanna play some Combat on my Atari 2600?
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Troglis's Avatar


Troglis
12.13.2013 , 07:52 AM | #130
LOL you really crack me up. You really just don't understand what scout means. Its all good though, the nerf stick will happen as it always does. When strikes are the FOM you will be complaining when people what them nerfed and so on with every other FOM that happens. Enjoy them while they last. There are plenty of real space fighter games that got it right and don't use dumb ground based mechanics, to eliminate player pilot skill.