For me with all the continuity problems I have absolute zero idea how JJ is going to tie it all together in 1 movie with 9.

 

He honestly needs 2 movies just to unscrew the problems with 8, have some actual character development for everyone, rebuild the resistance, deal with Leia, I mean the laundry list just goes on and on.

 

Then in 10 we get the big final fight.

The Resistance and Leia will be handled in the opening crawl and a few lines of dialogue. It doesn't have to be complicated. The legend of Rey and Luke is spreading and people feel empowered to stand up to the First Order.

There are plenty of other points to be cleared up, to be sure. At the very least, it will be interesting and entertaining to see how JJ does it. It should be easy to keep moving forward, though. Then just clear up the bit about the Knights of Ren, explore Kylo's motivations at Supreme Leader, throw in some Force ghosts talking to Rey and Kylo, and have the big confrontation be something other than a planet-killer. I think all of the characters will take a leap in development because of the time jump at the beginning. But Finn will still be comic relief.

The Resistance and Leia will be handled in the opening crawl and a few lines of dialogue. It doesn't have to be complicated. The legend of Rey and Luke is spreading and people feel empowered to stand up to the First Order.

 

 

There are plenty of other points to be cleared up, to be sure. At the very least, it will be interesting and entertaining to see how JJ does it. It should be easy to keep moving forward, though. Then just clear up the bit about the Knights of Ren, explore Kylo's motivations at Supreme Leader, throw in some Force ghosts talking to Rey and Kylo, and have the big confrontation be something other than a planet-killer. I think all of the characters will take a leap in development because of the time jump at the beginning. But Finn will still be comic relief.

Which the part about Finn drives me up the damn walls as well. He had a great arc in 7. Then just gets dumped upon in 8.

The one thing that really irked me - and I didn't even notice it while watching the movie - was how they covered bad fight choreography by editing later. The fight in the throne room more specifically, and the red guy who splits his larger weapon into two big knives. Once he gets into a clinch with Rey she's wide open to a stab from his left hand knife, but it's no longer there. So the choreographer or actors messed it up, and instead of filming it again until it goes right they lazily edit out the knife? They couldn't even, say, make a quick frame where Rey or Kylo is shown disarming the guy of one of his weapons?

If they couldn't even bother handling this sort of thing well is it any wonder other stuff can seem hastily slapped together in a "eh, good enough" manner to some fans?

The hyperspace jump. It seems like something that would be used more often given how powerful it is.

Just wanted to point out that the hyperspace jump sort of broke star wars physics. It portrayed hyperspace as going really really really fast rather than it being an entirely different dimension, thus hyper "space." It also makes people from TOR to the OT look dumb because they never made "hyperspace kamikaze ships."

Guys, we could all do this with any movie and tear anything apart. For example, most people love marvel movies but if you applied this nit-picking to them we'd never leave the message board. Anything can be torn apart.

I personally have been a fan since age 5 or so and grew up watching the OT. Luke is my favorite character. I not only like this movie and have it currently ranked #3 of all SW movies, I even liked the Luke storyline. I would have been fine and happy if they had gone the expected route with him, but this direction left me far more intellectually satisfied. I found it very plausible that one guy bearing the weight of a galaxy on his shoulders would experience failure.

But even if you didn't like this movie (or Solo perhaps) remember there is hope. "The greatest teacher, failure is". Disney has certainly heard the specific critiques and complaints and will make an even better film next time. Lot's of people have made good clear complaints and I don't think that will be drowned out in the sea of "it's not my head cannon so it sucks" type rants.

I think one they'll take to heart is to make Finn central to the story. I've read a million rants about his storyline, yet almost unanimously they don't say they dislike Finn. Instead, they all clearly care a ton about his character and want him to make an impact. Great news is there's an Episode IX about to film and now with a few less key characters involved he should really have his chance to shine.

Final thought, the main rant about TFA was that it was unoriginal and a rehash of ANH. Well this movie shows they took that message and reacted. Maybe it didn't please everyone, but it pleased me. I especially like that it was clear they listened.

The Resistance and Leia will be handled in the opening crawl and a few lines of dialogue. It doesn't have to be complicated. The legend of Rey and Luke is spreading and people feel empowered to stand up to the First Order.

 

 

There are plenty of other points to be cleared up, to be sure. At the very least, it will be interesting and entertaining to see how JJ does it. It should be easy to keep moving forward, though. ...

Exactly. One of the most impactful lines in the film tells us what's about to happen next:

Kylo Ren: " ... The Resistance is dead, the war is over, and when I kill you, I will have killed the last Jedi! "

Luke Skywalker: "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi."

Guys, we could all do this with any movie and tear anything apart. For example, most people love marvel movies but if you applied this nit-picking to them we'd never leave the message board. Anything can be torn apart.

 

I personally have been a fan since age 5 or so and grew up watching the OT. Luke is my favorite character. I not only like this movie and have it currently ranked #3 of all SW movies, I even liked the Luke storyline. I would have been fine and happy if they had gone the expected route with him, but this direction left me far more intellectually satisfied. I found it very plausible that one guy bearing the weight of a galaxy on his shoulders would experience failure.

 

But even if you didn't like this movie (or Solo perhaps) remember there is hope. "The greatest teacher, failure is". Disney has certainly heard the specific critiques and complaints and will make an even better film next time. Lot's of people have made good clear complaints and I don't think that will be drowned out in the sea of "it's not my head cannon so it sucks" type rants.

 

I think one they'll take to heart is to make Finn central to the story. I've read a million rants about his storyline, yet almost unanimously they don't say they dislike Finn. Instead, they all clearly care a ton about his character and want him to make an impact. Great news is there's an Episode IX about to film and now with a few less key characters involved he should really have his chance to shine.

 

Final thought, the main rant about TFA was that it was unoriginal and a rehash of ANH. Well this movie shows they took that message and reacted. Maybe it didn't please everyone, but it pleased me. I especially like that it was clear they listened.

It's ok for Luke to have failed. But to go from "I redeemed one of the biggest mass murderers in galactic history through hope" to "I was about to kill my nephew because I sensed darkness in him"?

Yeah no. Just hell freaking no. That is a complete and utter base character change with zero explanation. Sorry don't buy it.

Now far as the marvel movies. Yes I can nitpick them to death but they all have 1 thing going for them (even Iron Man 3 and I wasn't the biggest fan of it) that TLJ doesn't. A coherent plot.

Exactly. One of the most impactful lines in the film tells us what's about to happen next:

 

Kylo Ren: " ... The Resistance is dead, the war is over, and when I kill you, I will have killed the last Jedi! "

 

Luke Skywalker: "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi."

Groovy, 2 lines of dialogue just completely undoes logic and supplies and logistics.

Let's dive into this shall we. In the opening CRAWL it's been said that the New Repubic is gone, that means any military might they had is also gone.

It was stated those last 3 ships and their crews are all that's left. Now we're down to the Falcon and about 15 people.

Guess what folks. Rome was not built overnight. Nor was it even built in 5 years.

Hell the origional rebellion needed almost 20 years before it was even in a position to challenge the Empire on a galactic stage. It took mass defections, stealing equipment, convincing the Mon Cal people to create the cruisers the rebellion needed.

All of that is GONE. So logistically, where in the name of all that is holy are the resistance going to get, personnel, equipment, money, ships with any realistic chance to challenge the rebellion?

Please tell me.

It's ok for Luke to have failed. But to go from "I redeemed one of the biggest mass murderers in galactic history through hope" to "I was about to kill my nephew because I sensed darkness in him"?

 

Yeah no. Just hell freaking no. That is a complete and utter base character change with zero explanation. Sorry don't buy it.

 

Now far as the marvel movies. Yes I can nitpick them to death but they all have 1 thing going for them (even Iron Man 3 and I wasn't the biggest fan of it) that TLJ doesn't. A coherent plot.

No, he didn't face the crisis with Kylo because he "sensed darkness in him." Kylo had the raw power and the training, but Luke specifically said that he knew he had lost him to Snoke. That's a fair bit more than "sensing darkness in him."

And clearly, Snoke is extremely powerful and Luke knows this. I think this is a point that no one really talks about. Luke lost his blood and best student to Snoke. He didn't cut himself off from the Force just because he was sad and felt like a failure. He had to hide from both of them. Snoke would sense him. Look what he did with Kylo and Rey in bonding them through the Force! Luke had to remove himself to reflect and keep from being hunted. He obviously decided that the best course of action was to stay out until someone worth arrived. Hence the big question to Rey: "Why are YOU here?"

No, he didn't face the crisis with Kylo because he "sensed darkness in him." Kylo had the raw power and the training, but Luke specifically said that he knew he had lost him to Snoke. That's a fair bit more than "sensing darkness in him."

 

And clearly, Snoke is extremely powerful and Luke knows this. I think this is a point that no one really talks about. Luke lost his blood and best student to Snoke. He didn't cut himself off from the Force just because he was sad and felt like a failure. He had to hide from both of them. Snoke would sense him. Look what he did with Kylo and Rey in bonding them through the Force! Luke had to remove himself to reflect and keep from being hunted. He obviously decided that the best course of action was to stay out until someone worth arrived. Hence the big question to Rey: "Why are YOU here?"

Except the fact he REDEEMED DARTH VADER. Mr Optimism himself threw his life on the line to REDEEM Vader. But because he senses the dark side in his nephew, instead of trying to correct it, oh he's just going to decide "I'm gonna kill him." Even for a split second.

Does that sound like Luke Skywalker. The man who damn near gave everything to save his father would just go that far to the other extreme and just because he senses the dark side in his nephew go "oh well he's gotta go."

Really sit down and think about how drastic a shift that is. Before Luke has even truly failed and his academy destroyed Luke has that kind of character shift with ZERO explanation.

Sorry no. That's character assassination. PERIOD. Rian Johnson did Mark Hamil wrong along with Luke Skywalker. And you bought it hook line and sinker.

Futhermore what was the freaking point of Luke leaving a map behind if he was going out there to DIE? I mean good god, did Rian even read the notes from the previous 7 movies?

But because he senses the dark side in his nephew,

You're still missing this. It was not because he sensed the dark side in Ben. It was because HE HAD ALREADY LOST BEN TO SNOKE! That was the point. That was very clear. It wasn't a feeling or in inkling or something brewing... it had already happened.

Futhermore what was the freaking point of Luke leaving a map behind if he was going out there to DIE? I mean good god, did Rian even read the notes from the previous 7 movies?

I think the map had more to do with R2 than Luke. But, either way, Luke still wanted to find that spark or hope, or at least to leave the door open. If he wanted it all ended, he would have burned the tree and books himself and put a lightsaber through his skull or whatever. Luke was crusty, but he would never give up all hope.

You're still missing this. It was not because he sensed the dark side in Ben. It was because HE HAD ALREADY LOST BEN TO SNOKE! That was the point. That was very clear. It wasn't a feeling or in inkling or something brewing... it had already happened.

And you're going to sit there and tell me as conflicted as we see Ben in the movies, Luke would just go to the extreme and kill his nephew who mind you by that point has done NOTHING, but he'll practically give his life to save his father who helped murder billions?

Your logic makes zero sense.

Ok guys, want me to really highlight how bad the scene with Ben and Luke is. Go watch this Video by Ivan Ortega. He is actually a film editor and he's doing his own fan re-edit of the movie.

Watch what he does to fix that scene.

https://youtu.be/tgTKfDXqVCY

If you've got the stones for it that is. Look at the very simple fix Mr Ortega does to fix that plot point. And to me if Rian Johnson had done this, Luke would of been a tragic hero instead of a psychopath and a coward.

Seriously go watch it. Tell me this minor change wouldn't of been better and wouldn't of built both Ben and Luke's story.

And you're going to sit there and tell me as conflicted as we see Ben in the movies, Luke would just go to the extreme and kill his nephew who mind you by that point has done NOTHING, but he'll practically give his life to save his father who helped murder billions?

 

Your logic makes zero sense.

Nope. Luke wouldn't go to that extreme. Please note that he did not even attempt to kill Ben. Period.

Ok guys, want me to really highlight how bad the scene with Ben and Luke is. Go watch this Video by Ivan Ortega. He is actually a film editor and he's doing his own fan re-edit of the movie.

 

Watch what he does to fix that scene.

https://youtu.be/tgTKfDXqVCY

If you've got the stones for it that is. Look at the very simple fix Mr Ortega does to fix that plot point. And to me if Rian Johnson had done this, Luke would of been a tragic hero instead of a psychopath and a coward.

 

Seriously go watch it. Tell me this minor change wouldn't of been better and wouldn't of built both Ben and Luke's story.

I'm not really interested in some hack's fan fiction.

***EDIT*** Please note my reasoning is that I tend to choose to focus on what is and what can be, rather than what could have been. We have what we have and we can only move forward.

I thought the RJ's technique of having different points of view towards the truth of that moment was a good choice. It gave us enough to form an opinion ourselves, but let each of us have our own point of view. However, I don't see any path through those scenes that should lead you to hating the filmmaking or Luke. Luke was obviously conflicted, yet in the end he was not going to strike him down. I feel like some people miss this obvious truth.

If you think Luke was "out of character", rewatch the OT. If you think Luke never acted rashly or in anger, re-watch the OT. It's all there on screen since 1983 or earlier.

Then, as an ode to the great Tragic plays, Ben awoke at exactly the wrong moment to drive forward fate.

Honestly, the more I think about this, the greater the scenes become.

If you think Luke was "out of character", rewatch the OT. If you think Luke never acted rashly or in anger, re-watch the OT. It's all there on screen since 1983 or earlier.

^This. The Luke we see in these flashbacks strikes me as a perfectly acceptable continuation of the Luke we saw at the end of RotJ -- this is the guy who responded to Vader's goading about Leia by going off on him in a rage. He nearly killed the Sith lord in anger, before at the last moment, pulling himself back under control.

I have zero problem believing Luke would, for a split second, react by thumbing on his lightsaber, before again stepping back and getting himself under control. But this time, the damage had already been done, and the guilt for this failure left Luke withdrawn and bitter / filled with self loathing until Rey helped him snap out of it. (I don't believe Ben was really already completely lost at that point, just that in that moment Luke saw the darkness inside him and reacted to a portent of Ben killing those Luke loved.)

Also, between Obi-Wan and Yoda, I agree that "runs off and becomes a 'crazy old hermit'" is about as well-established as a Jedi trait as "uses a lightsaber" is.

Nope. Luke wouldn't go to that extreme. Please note that he did not even attempt to kill Ben. Period.

The fact he even thought about it and TURNED THE SABER ON is too far for Luke. No, just no.

Also may as well just chuck the Jedi Code right out the window on top of it. Some Jedi master he was.

The fact he even thought about it and TURNED THE SABER ON is too far for Luke. No, just no.

 

Also may as well just chuck the Jedi Code right out the window on top of it. Some Jedi master he was.

The further you reach, the less credible your case. Luke was flawed. Luke was flawed from the beginning. But, Luke was always a hero when it counted most.

Ok guys, want me to really highlight how bad the scene with Ben and Luke is. Go watch this Video by Ivan Ortega. He is actually a film editor and he's doing his own fan re-edit of the movie.

 

Watch what he does to fix that scene.

https://youtu.be/tgTKfDXqVCY

If you've got the stones for it that is. Look at the very simple fix Mr Ortega does to fix that plot point. And to me if Rian Johnson had done this, Luke would of been a tragic hero instead of a psychopath and a coward.

 

Seriously go watch it. Tell me this minor change wouldn't of been better and wouldn't of built both Ben and Luke's story.

it wouldn't fix a damn thing. This movie is part of a greatest saga of all times and its written as standalone movie. Single edit cant fix that. Rian tried to do something new and failed. Maybe because some fans (those that cant be satisfied with anything) spoke badly abt TFA and that its New hope ripoff nonsense. He wanted something new. And it was bad. Critics can say what ever they want. He knows its bad. Everyone knows its bad. U can love it but u cant say its good. I love some bad movies and thats fine. Too many plot holes and inconsistencies with SW universe makes it bad.

His portrait of almost all characters was bad.

Loved the porgs.

I didn't mind the scene with Leia using the force. In fact I loved seeing her use the force. I just thought the cgi of that scene was so god awful, they should've done something else entirely to have her use the force.

Never should've killed Luke. I thought the milking scene was terrible. Luke should've gotten a prequel level light saber duel and he didn't.

Holdo's move with the light speed was terrible, because she should've done it sooner. THey play her up and describe her as this awesome character, and she wasn't. If you're gonna play that move we've never seen for an awesome scene, fine. However, she could've done that a lot sooner and saved more people by having them abandon ship earlier.

Poe got ruined imo, seemingly as a way to get him slapped by Leia.

I was looking forward to seeing Luke be this bad *** super powerful Jedi like I grew up reading and I didn't get that feeling from him at all. :/

ye pogs were awesome. still indecisive abt tasting one or owning one

Leia is Skywalker after all so her using the force is thing that is absolute must but not in that superman way. That was just...meh

Regarding Luke, i dont mind him being killed but way hes been killed and portrayed. I mind that hes beaten by Rey in stick fight and that Rey lectures him after that while his head is down like some youngling. I know some ppl say its more realistic to portray him like that with human flaws etc but this is a movie with laser swords and lifting rocks with mind powers so we dont need "human" flaws. We need fckin Jedi Master Luke Skywalker who will not abandon his sister and run on fckin island cos...to die? So no one can find him? And left a map? Lazy writing.. Picture this: Snoke (we saw he is extremely powerful) has cut off Luke from the force and he is on island trying to figure what is happening to him. movie goes as it goes. Snoke dies and Luke reconnects with himself and since he cannot make it in time he force projects himself....One small change would get his arc so much more satisfying. Im still hopeful that ep 9 will make sense in everything that happens in LJ and that i will get satisfaction like i had when i watched force awakens

Holdo..i will not even comment on that. Poe asks her abt plan and shes all like "i know your type flyboy hotshot bla bla" than she has a plan but dont want to tell anyone cos....reasons...lazy writing

Poe was ruined, from "thats one hell of a pilot" to...that. Poe and Finn bromance ruined. Finn ruined. Rose had good start with when she tasered Finn but that last scene with kiss and "saving what we love..." while everything is on fire around them fcked everything up

Lot of things in this movie sucks from Star wars lore perspective and is full of lazy writing. Hyperspace raming, force skype call (and apparently u can send even water trough it) magical indeed, Snokes background, knights of ren, fuel in spaceships,force gold dices that are...soild for some reason, BB8 killing 3 guards with coins, codebreaker!!!! only he can help you....and some random guy u found in a cell in exact same moment u needed him. Phasma, Yoda can shoot lightning from dead apparently (makes u wonder why he didnt do it in numerous occasions...), Ackbar, no lightsaber fight, Rey with no training can do whatever she wants, lifting rocks like nothing. That undermined whole Anakin training and apple on naboo scene for example.

Bottom line if you gona direct a movie that has 7 parts prior to yours YOU NEED TO OBLIGE TO SOME BASIC RULES! Rian did not. I still have faith that JJ is much smarter so he will do some miracle to undo this.