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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
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olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
11.18.2017 , 11:53 AM | #201
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
Or juste abuse even more the system by playing skank. Seems like it's what they want anyway...

But yeah, still waiting for an explanation as to why they nerfed both hatred and Deception for what should have been a buff to hatred.
And if it isn't a nerf, I'm still waiting for an explanation as well, currently the information relayed doesn't make sense at all, especially if you consider that some ranged class (mercenary) got to keep the whole utility.
They explained all they needed to.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
11.18.2017 , 12:18 PM | #202
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
They explained all they needed to.
They did not actually. They presented it as a buff to hatred, but in the end both are taking a huge nerf due to the removing of the 30% Damage Reduction while stunned.
Assassin wasn't the class with a broken DtPS, they showed it by their intent of buffing hatred. Still, I'm waiting on an explanation as to why they nerfed it anyway while letting other class with way bigger DtPS issue not getting the long deserved nerf.
Until you're showing peoples here that dps shadow/sin were taking too few damage when compared to other class, then no it isn't justified nor explained anywhere ^^
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
11.19.2017 , 10:50 AM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
They did not actually. They presented it as a buff to hatred, but in the end both are taking a huge nerf due to the removing of the 30% Damage Reduction while stunned.
Assassin wasn't the class with a broken DtPS, they showed it by their intent of buffing hatred. Still, I'm waiting on an explanation as to why they nerfed it anyway while letting other class with way bigger DtPS issue not getting the long deserved nerf.
Until you're showing peoples here that dps shadow/sin were taking too few damage when compared to other class, then no it isn't justified nor explained anywhere ^^
They have said they make changes based on factual data, not what people "think" is accurate.

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
11.20.2017 , 09:20 AM | #204
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
They have said they make changes based on factual data, not what people "think" is accurate.
Like they gave Mandos their DCDs based on factual data? You don't know that anymore than anyone else. I'm betting they made the changes based on some arbitrary parameters they set, including feedback and bringing specs inline. For example, they took away the 30% damage reduced while stunned from all DPS specs, even though it does not affect all specs equally. Infiltration shadows will take a lot more damage than troopers, and serenity even more.

They also gave all tanks a 30% DR while stunned, even though (again) it doesn't affect them all equally. Vanguard tanks have more DR than either other tank spec, they'll basically laugh at any non-internal/elemental damage while stunned. Especially with their shield up.

I don't like this change, shadows are already the squishiest specs in the game. They rely on active cooldowns to survive, and they don't get them when they're stunned.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
11.20.2017 , 09:42 AM | #205
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
Like they gave Mandos their DCDs based on factual data? You don't know that anymore than anyone else. I'm betting they made the changes based on some arbitrary parameters they set, including feedback and bringing specs inline. For example, they took away the 30% damage reduced while stunned from all DPS specs, even though it does not affect all specs equally. Infiltration shadows will take a lot more damage than troopers, and serenity even more.

They also gave all tanks a 30% DR while stunned, even though (again) it doesn't affect them all equally. Vanguard tanks have more DR than either other tank spec, they'll basically laugh at any non-internal/elemental damage while stunned. Especially with their shield up.

I don't like this change, shadows are already the squishiest specs in the game. They rely on active cooldowns to survive, and they don't get them when they're stunned.
Sounds like a player problem, not a class problem. Again, they have stated they use internal data for changes, so it is very likely that the average player is playing their toon differently than you are, and changes were made based on class average data. Much more likely that you not fitting the average mold than them just pulling arbitrary numbers out of thin air. They have a job investment on the line if they're not using data that supports their changes.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
11.20.2017 , 09:56 AM | #206
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Sounds like a player problem, not a class problem. Again, they have stated they use internal data for changes, so it is very likely that the average player is playing their toon differently than you are, and changes were made based on class average data. Much more likely that you not fitting the average mold than them just pulling arbitrary numbers out of thin air. They have a job investment on the line if they're not using data that supports their changes.
The main issue we have here is that no one have seen those data numbers.
It's like santa claus for kids you know, the fact that you tell them it exist doesn't exactly mean it's true. Furthermore, I really doubt that if they use their data it is somewhat accurate, especially in PvP. I don't know if you've been playing ranked seriously or not since S8, but I, along others players, did. Assassins weren't exactly the "top class" in ranked. Merc, snipers and mara were, and still are due to the imbalance in DtPS for these spec compared to others. The change will be felt even more for Powertech dps, who was by far the most fragile class in pvp (more than sorcerer, because sorc have at least some defensive ability). They removed one of their main DR buff nonetheless, even though peoples have spent a year complaining about PT being way too fragile.
As a matter of fact, guess who got to keep the 30% DR ? Mercenary. Isn't that strange ? The class as tough as any tank spec in the game got to keep that. Peoples also have been complaining about this big joke that was released on 5.0 with god mercenary. And still it isn't fixed now.


Again, and it's not against you, but until they clearly show us, with real, factual data, that these class (Juggernaut/Powertech/Assassin) where taking too few damage in their dps spec, then I will say that they clearly have no idea on how to balance this game. I'm really sorry for saying this, but we are a year after the initial changes were released. In this entire year, the complaints have never diminished or changed whatsoever. But still, the dev team keep ignoring the issues peoples keep talking about. And we're talking about global feedback, something that every player who knows a bit (not really much) about this game will say. So please, stop talking like this is some "L2P issue", because it isn't, or else that would mean that the entire playerbase of this game has some serious L2P issue, which I seriously doubt.
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

Kirtastropohe's Avatar


Kirtastropohe
11.20.2017 , 11:44 AM | #207
I won't rehash the death by a thousand cuts we've suffered as the Devs have changed the dynamics of classes. Long story short is they have made it impossible for infiltration/deception to do what it was supposed to do...be a brutally bursty class that can overwhelm but be a glass cannon. Well, they have actually furthered the glass part. Squishy will be our middle name given how long it will take to kill anyone, particularly the truly OP ranged classes that they didn't nerf as should have been done. Anyway, the 5.5 changes really sucked and the utility/class changes in 5.6 will really destroy the viability of this toon. I fully expect infiltration shadows to become virtually extinct once the 5.6 changes come out on the 28th.

I don't consider standing near a node in stealth and serving as an alarm system that delays caps until help arrives to be really fun game after game after game, but aside from guard duty and sap capping, where will infiltration be better to use than another class in the 5.6 world? Our damage won't be as huge as other classes, not to mention they've made our ability for huge hits to be even more random and harder. Sentinels and slingers will seem to be a better choice from a damage standpoint. When it comes to survivability, we were already squishy and at risk due to the changes over the years, and now 5.5 and 5.6 will ensure we're even more squishy. Chain stuns will kill us much more quickly, and it is impossible to avoid being chain stunned in a lot of situations.

I'm really ticked at what they've done and intend to do. Frankly, they should have changed things, just as they did when the sentinels/marauders brought up their beefs with 5.6, but as usual, we get short end of the stick. I can only hope they quickly see the disastrous results of their 5.6 shadow nerfs when they go live and decide to change things quickly.... but given that it will be holiday season, I doubt they'll do anything until the new year, if ever. In the meantime, they'll just oversee a further migration of players from melee to ranged, or from the game altogether.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
11.20.2017 , 03:06 PM | #208
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
The main issue we have here is that no one have seen those data numbers.
It's like santa claus for kids you know, the fact that you tell them it exist doesn't exactly mean it's true. Furthermore, I really doubt that if they use their data it is somewhat accurate, especially in PvP. I don't know if you've been playing ranked seriously or not since S8, but I, along others players, did. Assassins weren't exactly the "top class" in ranked. Merc, snipers and mara were, and still are due to the imbalance in DtPS for these spec compared to others. The change will be felt even more for Powertech dps, who was by far the most fragile class in pvp (more than sorcerer, because sorc have at least some defensive ability). They removed one of their main DR buff nonetheless, even though peoples have spent a year complaining about PT being way too fragile.
As a matter of fact, guess who got to keep the 30% DR ? Mercenary. Isn't that strange ? The class as tough as any tank spec in the game got to keep that. Peoples also have been complaining about this big joke that was released on 5.0 with god mercenary. And still it isn't fixed now.


Again, and it's not against you, but until they clearly show us, with real, factual data, that these class (Juggernaut/Powertech/Assassin) where taking too few damage in their dps spec, then I will say that they clearly have no idea on how to balance this game. I'm really sorry for saying this, but we are a year after the initial changes were released. In this entire year, the complaints have never diminished or changed whatsoever. But still, the dev team keep ignoring the issues peoples keep talking about. And we're talking about global feedback, something that every player who knows a bit (not really much) about this game will say. So please, stop talking like this is some "L2P issue", because it isn't, or else that would mean that the entire playerbase of this game has some serious L2P issue, which I seriously doubt.
I dont know of any MMO company that provides the type of data you are asking to be transparent about, so the likelihood of them starting that trend to open up to more scrutiny is unlikely. And i dont blame them considering the dynamic nature of these types of games, everyone and their mother would come up with some scenario that could show that specific data doesnt merit the change. Oh wait, that happens already, without the data. And again, we are talking about average data, not top end data, so while their may be some top tier players having respective success or failure with their specific class, the changes suggest that it is not a game-wide issue for the average player. There will always be deviations in results the further you move away from the mean, and those deviations wont necessarily be equal for all situations either, so its an impossible request to expect balance the entire way through, at every level, and for every variation of skill the thousands of players have. Catering to the masses is the most efficient plan, and based on the changes, the disparities we see at end game are obviously not there for the average player. So essentially, the conclusion that can be drawn by the criticism is that the changes dont cater to your, or my, or anyone specifics skill level, and perspectives of each will be skewed and different than the average person layer.

And btw, they arent even done with changes to classes.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
11.20.2017 , 03:09 PM | #209
Quote: Originally Posted by Kirtastropohe View Post
I won't rehash the death by a thousand cuts we've suffered as the Devs have changed the dynamics of classes. Long story short is they have made it impossible for infiltration/deception to do what it was supposed to do...be a brutally bursty class that can overwhelm but be a glass cannon. Well, they have actually furthered the glass part. Squishy will be our middle name given how long it will take to kill anyone, particularly the truly OP ranged classes that they didn't nerf as should have been done. Anyway, the 5.5 changes really sucked and the utility/class changes in 5.6 will really destroy the viability of this toon. I fully expect infiltration shadows to become virtually extinct once the 5.6 changes come out on the 28th.

I don't consider standing near a node in stealth and serving as an alarm system that delays caps until help arrives to be really fun game after game after game, but aside from guard duty and sap capping, where will infiltration be better to use than another class in the 5.6 world? Our damage won't be as huge as other classes, not to mention they've made our ability for huge hits to be even more random and harder. Sentinels and slingers will seem to be a better choice from a damage standpoint. When it comes to survivability, we were already squishy and at risk due to the changes over the years, and now 5.5 and 5.6 will ensure we're even more squishy. Chain stuns will kill us much more quickly, and it is impossible to avoid being chain stunned in a lot of situations.

I'm really ticked at what they've done and intend to do. Frankly, they should have changed things, just as they did when the sentinels/marauders brought up their beefs with 5.6, but as usual, we get short end of the stick. I can only hope they quickly see the disastrous results of their 5.6 shadow nerfs when they go live and decide to change things quickly.... but given that it will be holiday season, I doubt they'll do anything until the new year, if ever. In the meantime, they'll just oversee a further migration of players from melee to ranged, or from the game altogether.
As was advertised from day 1 of this dynamic game, the game changed, so you must adapt your gameplay. That very well can include your role.

FlavivsAetivs's Avatar


FlavivsAetivs
11.25.2017 , 06:46 PM | #210
Infil/Deception won't be extinct, but that's because they already forced everyone who was playing it to abandon in 4.0 and there's only like 6 of us super-hard-headed shadows/sins left.

~ Eudoxia
A.K.A. Magister Militum Flavius Aetius
Eudoxia Eudoxya
<Aeterna Vigilantia>
Jedi Covenant