Anyway, I just wanted to be pedantic for a moment and make this general point. I'll probably get dragged into an argument, but I'm kind of expecting it.

No scummy fencer sitters allowed!

No scummy fencer sitters allowed!

Lol. But, but, it's so comfy up on this fence. I can look down on everybody.

I mean, uh... that didn't come out right.

I always figured the body types broke down to:

1) underaged

2) normal adult

3) amazon/rambo (best for troopers/bounty hunters)

4) fat

Anything larger than #4 would be obese or morbidly obese. Going from the responses in the thread, everyone's body type expectations are widely skewed.

As a point of comparison, presented without comment.

Type 4 female body...

http://www.youngmoneyhq.com/images/nicki-minaj-performs-live-2015-x-games-austin-texas.jpg

(Nicki Minaj)

Type 4 male body...

https://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/2011/11-687-02/andy-bolton.jpg

(Andy Bolton)

http://www.sportslook.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/SD-HosseinRezazadeh-1.jpg

(Hossein Rezazadeh)

The problem with that is that, yeah, it keeps you from seeing their creepy bilge, but it doesn't stop them from posting whatever garbage they want about you without you even being able to flag it. Not that the mods care about the toxicity here, as long as you don't get around their precious little word-filters.

If you don't see it, then it didn't happen, lol. Let them spew their rubbish. People will soon realise that you aren't responding and that the person is just a troll. Most reasonable people will just ignore them and won't think anything bad about you.

My motto is let them spew. It's always the same people who do it. When ever I go to new threads now and I see that post is ignored and this post is ignored, etc. it's a good sign they are arguing with someone. Occasionally I'll see someone who has quoted them when responding to their "spew", it takes 2 secs to realise they are trolling once again.

So if everyone started to put the really toxic trolls on ignore, they'd end up talking to themselves.😉

Then we as a community are moderating our own forums.

The body types are fine, nobody wants to see fat ugly ogres in their nerdy fantasy.

They should take out male body type 4 then. O_o

I'm so sorry my complaining about the unfair treatment of women in video games triggers certain guys so easily, but I'm not going to shut up about it, and I'm not going to get dragged down into an argument about it. Every time I make a point about this I get a half-dozen guys telling me why sexism doesn't exist when the evidence is right there on the character creation screen, and it's freakin' exhausting. I don't owe them a "debate", I don't owe them an explanation, and I'm not going to waste anymore of my time.

 

And I will never, ever shut up about it.

I'm only responding to this post to point out that lots of female gamers don't post on forums or divulge their sex for the reason of guys throwing around the sexism, feminist words.

I've been on the receiving end of this too. Unfortunately a lot of males think females "never" play video games, we are just a myth

So when we bring up anything that we think is unfair or not equal to our male counterparts, some male players think we are QQing about nothing or that we are bringing up sexism. What's sad is that as soon as someone brings up sexism or feminism, the whole conversation changes about that, instead of the original topic. (FYI, this is not what I am trying to do here. So there is no need for people to respond and argue. This is just my own experience as a female gamer)

Now considering the percentage of male to female players of video games is close to 50/50 these days (depending on games and segment), game developers still cater a lot more to the male segment and hardly any on the female segment. This is slowly changing, but it is an up hill battle.

What makes it harder is when we get yelled down or told "there" is no problem by male gamers. Just because you are male and feel there is "no" problem, doesn't mean females feel the same way.

So guys, please play nice. If us females get a bit loud about stuff that we feel isn't equal to or caters more to the guys than us, let us run with it. We aren't trying to take anything from you, we are just trying to get the Devs to pay attention to a topic we feel we are under represented in or misrepresented in. If it doesn't effect you and has no major impact on the game, there really shouldn't be an issue for the guys.

Ok, I hope some people might have a better understanding of how female gamers can feel and maybe be a bit more sympathetic when the girls ask for something too.

I'm only responding to this post to point out that lots of female gamers don't post on forums or divulge their sex for the reason of guys throwing around the sexism, feminist words.

I've been on the receiving end of this too. Unfortunately a lot of males think females "never" play video games, we are just a myth

So when we bring up anything that we think is unfair or not equal to our male counterparts, some male players think we are QQing about nothing or that we are bringing up sexism. What's sad is that as soon as someone brings up sexism or feminism, the whole conversation changes about that, instead of the original topic. (FYI, this is not what I am trying to do here. So there is no need for people to respond and argue. This is just my own experience as a female gamer)

Now considering the percentage of male to female players of video games is close to 50/50 these days (depending on games and segment), game developers still cater a lot more to the male segment and hardly any on the female segment. This is slowly changing, but it is an up hill battle.

What makes it harder is when we get yelled down or told "there" is no problem by male gamers. Just because you are male and feel there is "no" problem, doesn't mean females feel the same way.

So guys, please play nice. If us females get a bit loud about stuff that we feel isn't equal to or caters more to the guys than us, let us run with it. We aren't trying to take anything from you, we are just trying to get the Devs to pay attention to a topic we feel we are under represented in or misrepresented in. If it doesn't effect you and has no major impact on the game, there really shouldn't be an issue for the guys.

Ok, I hope some people might have a better understanding of how female gamers can feel and maybe be a bit more sympathetic when the girls ask for something too.

I'm only responding to this to point out that when guys argue with girls on this stuff, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anything. People argue on the internet when they disagree and sometimes I get a vibe that may not be real (but it's a vibe I get all the same) that there's an expectation of special treatment, in terms of how the arguments are approached. That some things are simply beyond argument and debating means you are XYZ bad thing.

I get why this is the case on a certain level, but understanding something doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it.

I realize I'm being kind of vague. My point is really just, don't assume that it's personal if it's not? If someone gets personal on either end, the reaction makes sense to me. But in the cases where there's no criticism of individuals or groups and it's just arguing the points themselves, it may very well be that the person arguing simply feels like arguing the point for whatever reason, just like they would any other point on the internet.

As an aside, sometimes there's middle ground where the pot gets stirred because an argument targets a vague group with criticism, but isn't technically personal. The problem with this is that it sets the stage for anyone who identifies with said group to take it personally.

Keeping things impersonal is, in my experience, a lot harder than it sounds, especially on the internet. And I see so often cases of people (including myself in the past, though I think I do it less now) lobbing vague insults at groups, so as to avoid the rule-breaking of targeting individuals.

I don't know why I'm writing this. I guess I took it a little personally, what you said, because I've probably been the guy arguing on occasion and I would never argue on that kind of topic for reasons other than intellectual honesty. Sometimes I just argue stuff because there's a point that stands out to me as factually incorrect or misleading and I don't want it to go unchallenged. I don't feel that Z topic should be relegated to some kind of special status of "let people just say stuff," when the rest of the alphabet in feature requests and game design get challenged all the time without the same reaction.

Anyway, I'm falling asleep here. I need to go to bed.

I'm only responding to this to point out that when guys argue with girls on this stuff, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anything. People argue on the internet when they disagree and sometimes I get a vibe that may not be real (but it's a vibe I get all the same) that there's an expectation of special treatment, in terms of how the arguments are approached. That some things are simply beyond argument and debating means you are XYZ bad thing.

 

I get why this is the case on a certain level, but understanding something doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it.

 

I realize I'm being kind of vague. My point is really just, don't assume that it's personal if it's not? If someone gets personal on either end, the reaction makes sense to me. But in the cases where there's no criticism of individuals or groups and it's just arguing the points themselves, it may very well be that the person arguing simply feels like arguing the point for whatever reason, just like they would any other point on the internet.

 

As an aside, sometimes there's middle ground where the pot gets stirred because an argument targets a vague group with criticism, but isn't technically personal. The problem with this is that it sets the stage for anyone who identifies with said group to take it personally.

 

Keeping things impersonal is, in my experience, a lot harder than it sounds, especially on the internet. And I see so often cases of people (including myself in the past, though I think I do it less now) lobbing vague insults at groups, so as to avoid the rule-breaking of targeting individuals.

 

I don't know why I'm writing this. I guess I took it a little personally, what you said, because I've probably been the guy arguing on occasion and I would never argue on that kind of topic for reasons other than intellectual honesty. Sometimes I just argue stuff because there's a point that stands out to me as factually incorrect or misleading and I don't want it to go unchallenged. I don't feel that Z topic should be relegated to some kind of special status of "let people just say stuff," when the rest of the alphabet in feature requests and game design get challenged all the time without the same reaction.

 

Anyway, I'm falling asleep here. I need to go to bed.

Ok....

not going to happen. they won't reskin all the gear, and without doing it there will be a ton of visual bugs. clipping issues, lighting issues, animation issues - just to name a few. this is the exact reason they don't want to even consider non humanoid new races. all the races use the same body types for the same reason - too much work adding another version of all the gear, which would work with the new body type.

All true. It doesn't mean we can't dream

So when we bring up anything that we think is unfair or not equal to our male counterparts, some male players think we are QQing about nothing or that we are bringing up sexism.

Part of the problem may be that the subjects brought up are not related to making things "equal" to male counterparts.

For example, this topic was initially about the OP's opinion that the female body types were "unrealistic". The fact that there was no mention of the male body types also being "unrealistic" makes the average male gamer think that this is basically a feminist whining about female "body image" or some other BS.

Was the OP concerned about her (or his) lack of ability to make a character with a "realistic" body type, or were they just complaining that other people "should" want realistic body types? If it's the latter, it's not surprising that there'd be some bow-back.

P.s Most "gamers", especially those who actually play MMOs, are well aware that there are lots of female gamers. It's only the non-gaming public (and press) that believes any of this "boys club" BS.

Gamergate is over.

Most "gamers", especially those who actually play MMOs, are well aware that there are lots of female gamers. It's only the non-gaming public (and press) that believes any of this "boys club" BS.

Gamergate is over.

If only that was true. But it's good see that you and obviously those you know, also feel this way. There are far more girl gamers than is generally believed.

But from my perspective as a "girl gamer", this is rarely the case. Often I am told to prove I am a "girl gamer", that girl gamers don't really exist. If I had a dollar for every time I've been seriously asked to prove it, I would never need to work again.

Sure, some guys are just perves and get their "little rocks off" wanting to hear or "see" a girl gamer. If they actually believe you without providing "proof", then the amount of comments about wanting to hear and see me is pretty insane.

It gets to the point that most girls don't ever let on they are girls. The boys club really does rule things, so most just let them roll with it because it's easier. We are in part, small contributors to making it a boys club.

Let me ask you, when was the last time you were asked to prove you were a man in a video game? I'm guessing never.

And how many times do you get a heaps of desperate "gamer girls" all start pm'ing you to flirt or even worse, as soon as someone confirms you are a guy. Once again I would say never.

Not so long ago, someone asked me why I have "lesbian gamer" in my signature and also in game. In part, but not the whole reason, is to discourage the notion that I'm available for all the guys to continue pm'ing me. I still get the sick perves or homophobes, but they're are far fewer of them now.

There are good guys out there like you and your friends but you are usually drowned out by the "louder than loud" guys club.

I hope this female perspective gives a little insight to the way it seems to us. We speak up and often get closed down, so somethings "seem" more lopsided than they probably are. Sometimes we may lean a bit further than we should on some subjects to get our voices heard amongst the boy herd

Edit: and sure the OP never mentioned guys bodies. I'm guessing that could be for another thread and would have equal weight from me on the subject.

Edit: To everyone, sorry I added to derailing some of the thread with this. I'll retreat to the gallery now to read and watch the excitement.

.

On the thread topic.

What would actually be good for creation of characters is a system like they have in Star Trek Online. I'm not sure if anyone here has seen it in the last 8 months or not, but customisation is unreal. You can pretty much customise any body size, shap, angle, dimension, etc.. The list goes on.

I know this would be an insane job for the Devs to do here, so it would never happen. I mean if a company like Blizzard wont change to such customisation in WoW, then bio certainly won't. Plus it's probably not possible with the engine or they would break it. They can't even get gear clipping correct. lol.

But it's just an example of what can be done if a developer wants to. ST Online went from Sub to F2P and got taken over by another company because it was hemoraging money. They have basically rebuilt the game and even ported it to console, all still on a F2P model. The game is so much better since its rebuild and upgrade. It's a shame EA are Biowares parent company and are signed to have exclusive rights to SW games. I'm sure others could do a better job.

Imagine this game done right, with all the bells and whistles the fans expect or want from a SW game. Imagine the Devs listening, imagine EA giving them resources. Imagine real gamers running things like the game Devs of old or the ones in boutique studios.

Imagine if EA hadn't just had the fan made/dev/funded real sequel to the original SW Battlefront consigned to the scrap heap. The game wasn't far off being released. It would be free to play and probably better than this game. I do understand why they had to shut it down, copy right etc. But EA missed a great opportunity in not deciding to buy it or fund it under their guidance.

So I'll say imagine one more time. Imagine a real SW game made and developed by the SW community and what possibilities may have been.

If only that was true. But it's good see that you and obviously those you know, also feel this way. There are far more girl gamers than is generally believed.

But from my perspective as a "girl gamer", this is rarely the case. Often I am told to prove I am a "girl gamer", that girl gamers don't really exist. If I had a dollar for every time I've been seriously asked to prove it, I would never need to work again.

Sure, some guys are just perves and get their "little rocks off" wanting to hear or "see" a girl gamer. If they actually believe you without providing "proof", then the amount of comments about wanting to hear and see me is pretty insane.

It gets to the point that most girls don't ever let on they are girls. The boys club really does rule things, so most just let them roll with it because it's easier. We are in part, small contributors to making it a boys club.

Let me ask you, when was the last time you were asked to prove you were a man in a video game? I'm guessing never.

And how many times do you get a heaps of desperate "gamer girls" all start pm'ing you to flirt or even worse, as soon as someone confirms you are a guy. Once again I would say never.

Not so long ago, someone asked me why I have "lesbian gamer" in my signature and also in game. In part, but not the whole reason, is to discourage the notion that I'm available for all the guys to continue pm'ing me. I still get the sick perves or homophobes, but they're are far fewer of them now.

There are good guys out there like you and your friends but you are usually drowned out by the "louder than loud" guys club.

I hope this female perspective gives a little insight to the way it seems to us. We speak up and often get closed down, so somethings "seem" more lopsided than they probably are. Sometimes we may lean a bit further than we should on some subjects to get our voices heard amongst the boy herd

 

Edit: and sure the OP never mentioned guys bodies. I'm guessing that could be for another thread and would have equal weight from me on the subject.

 

Edit: To everyone, sorry I added to derailing some of the thread with this. I'll retreat to the gallery now to read and watch the excitement.

 

.

Just to add a little extra perspective to this, based on my experiences... there was a period in another game where I co-ran a guild for a good year or two.

Regarding the "girl gamer" weirdness:

1) There were definitely some moments in my guild when it felt like the girls were being given special attention in conversation, but...

2) Some of the girls were flirty from the offset and even hooked up with guys while in the guild (this and followup drama happened way too many times >.<)

3) And... our policies were never in any way biased about gender (we were really staunch about fairness in general) and I don't remember any instances of people going out of their way to make the girls uncomfortable, when it was unasked for.

Not that my experiences are the definition of how it goes in games. Just thought 2 was interesting, especially, because the typical narrative is that girl gamers get harassed or flirted with when they don't want it and although I'm sure that does happen sometimes, I also know that some of them are looking for love and/or flirting themselves. It's not all one-sided.

And granted, 3 is based on what I observed. It's possible there was some PMing going and it went unreported to us. But I don't think we ever got complaints about that kind of thing. Again though, I know it does happen. Just maybe our environment kept it in the open with people who wanted it, or something.

In general, as an unrelated aside, I was so weirded out after that experience at how many relationships we saw get started, or come in and break up, one or two of them was even an issue with a marriage. It was eye-opening, in a "holy crap, I had no idea" kind of way. But I still wonder if we were a magnet for it, too, for some unknown reason. The other guilds we talked to didn't seem to have that kind of problem.

Just to add a little extra perspective to this, based on my experiences... there was a period in another game where I co-ran a guild for a good year or two.

 

Regarding the "girl gamer" weirdness:

 

1) There were definitely some moments in my guild when it felt like the girls were being given special attention in conversation, but...

2) Some of the girls were flirty from the offset and even hooked up with guys while in the guild (this and followup drama happened way too many times >.<)

3) And... our policies were never in any way biased about gender (we were really staunch about fairness in general) and I don't remember any instances of people going out of their way to make the girls uncomfortable, when it was unasked for.

 

Not that my experiences are the definition of how it goes in games. Just thought 2 was interesting, especially, because the typical narrative is that girl gamers get harassed or flirted with when they don't want it and although I'm sure that does happen sometimes, I also know that some of them are looking for love and/or flirting themselves. It's not all one-sided.

 

And granted, 3 is based on what I observed. It's possible there was some PMing going and it went unreported to us. But I don't think we ever got complaints about that kind of thing. Again though, I know it does happen. Just maybe our environment kept it in the open with people who wanted it, or something.

 

In general, as an unrelated aside, I was so weirded out after that experience at how many relationships we saw get started, or come in and break up, one or two of them was even an issue with a marriage. It was eye-opening, in a "holy crap, I had no idea" kind of way. But I still wonder if we were a magnet for it, too, for some unknown reason. The other guilds we talked to didn't seem to have that kind of problem.

Guilds are usually inviting and girls feel more comfortable being themselves "if" it's a good close group, hence the flirting, lol.

But out of the guild environment, completely different.

Guilds are usually inviting and girls feel more comfortable being themselves "if" it's a good close group, hence the flirting, lol.

But out of the guild environment, completely different.

That makes sense.

 

Regarding the "girl gamer" weirdness:

 

And then you have the outliers like me who've never experienced that weirdness beyond a comment of "Wow..didn't know you were a chick" at most. Why I've never experienced the sort of behavior others have mentioned in the thread, I couldn't say. It could be I never go out of my way to say I'm a woman and the group/guild ends up figuring it out for themselves so by that time it's no big deal, it could be I mouth off and trash talk on par with everyone else so no one really notices anytime soon and by then it's no big deal, or it could even be something else I haven't a clue on as I don't go out of my way to carry myself any differently than I am offline. The women who game who do face the weirdness do have my complete and total sympathy for dealing with that sort of crap.

But back to topic, I do have to agree the customization options in STO are completely insane and awesome and it would be great to see something with that degree of variety available here, but then I start thinking of how many would start griping about what range the tatas slider would have along with seeing all that in the dancer/slave bikini outfits and I start thinking maybe this wouldn't be a good idea. It's not that I'm outraged or offended by the bikini style outfits, it's more for how many decades of being bombarded with that being the clothing style presented for women in fantasy/sci-fi, by this point it's old, it's tired and I'd really like to see something new at this point.

To build further off my earlier post in the thread, our perspectives of body type are skewed for a variety of reasons and regardless of what options we're given, there will always be debate over what those options are. To me, the OP's statement of being unable to tell between most of the offered body types was an alien concept as each type is dramatically different to me.