paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Hey Snipers! Laze Target does leave a bit to be desired. As you stated in the question, Snipers already deal some of the highest, most consistent damage in the game, so any change to Laze Target would likely come at a price. For example, we could consider changing Laze Target to increase the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Explosive Probe, or Takedown by 100% (instead of Snipe) – but would you really want that change if it meant that another minute or two were added to Laze Target’s cooldown? Time to answer their question. So which one will you pick? Laze Target 1 min cooldown Auto-crit on next Snipe Laze Target between 2 and 3 min cooldown Auto-crit on next Ambush (MM) or Explosive Probe (Engineering) or Takedown (Lethality) This is a welcome change imo that makes Laze Target slightly more interesting in that it affects different abilities depending on what spec you run. BW might consider making this change but they will have to increase its cooldown by at least 100% if this pushes through IN COMPARISON TO THE SNIPER COMMUNITY QUESTIONS SHEET: 152% participation (counting the number of "legit" snipers/slingers in this thread) VOTES: I want LT/SL to affect abilities specific to the 3 specs at the cost of increased cooldown paowee / B'oardlordahlcjnjb-dickfalver lucky telanismathegmaicashyromankowabongamasterjacerdarthrunkmonkeyjetreaperzgrimsbloodgreg_biochemAtom_boybryceskatekvandertulipkingofbobscythelevenziggytanktipndipcasitasjboonesolarbreezeGalnarDeganaardarelsololoveeternaljohnpickardyindaka captCodylord_Virocarbonmeridardarelsolovaidinaharctyckenjerpilgrim_greyfridge_LMBKVsDragonCowboy I want LT/SL to remain as is: Snipe only and a 1 minute cooldown forsakenkingflyburitoSvii islanderschooch I want to see some changes to LT/SL but not this one notomorrowthejanitorphoenixfyreartikulerienangelfluttershyzetaazsamuela Edited September 10, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) How about we be more creative? I would like laze target to give us versatilty in the way how we play our sniper. Laze target upgrades your next Shatter Shot or Legshot damage to that of a Snipe, the ability itself will count as a snipe for purposes of FT proccing. This way you don't waste 1 GCD for just a debuff or root, you are doing actual damage with it, and it's instant. 45s CD is probably ok. This way you can have some more mobile DPS while applying shattershot/legshot. And it's useful to every spec! Paowee, would you like your legshots to do 4000 damage? Edited August 24, 2013 by NoTomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) How about we be more creative? I would like laze target to give us versatilty in the way how we play our sniper. Because in the first place, no amount of justification will convince BW to give us a strong and "biased" buff to Laze Target Smuggler's Luck . even though we don't have a "Recklessness" kind of cooldown, we do enough sustained single target and aoe dot fluff DPS as it is , we are lucky they are even open to giving as a STRONGER BURST in the form of auto-crit Ambush/EP and TD. Their version of Laze Target is very nice compared to what we have right now. We should take this chance. Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJNJ Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) How about we be more creative? I would like laze target to give us versatilty in the way how we play our sniper. Laze target upgrades your next Shatter Shot or Legshot damage to that of a Snipe, the ability itself will count as a snipe for purposes of FT proccing. This way you don't waste 1 GCD for just a debuff or root, you are doing actual damage with it, and it's instant. 45s CD is probably ok. This way you can have some more mobile DPS while applying shattershot/legshot. And it's useful to every spec! Paowee, would you like your legshots to do 4000 damage? As cool as that would be, it doesn't really help pve too much, just gives us a cheaper snipe, altho the mobility would be nice. I'd love this in pvp tho As far as the 3 sec of 30% crit chance goes tbh I don't really like it. Something like that just mixes things up too much and I feel wouldn't be even between the specs. On one hand you get MM's boosted SoS and FT Engi is say imidiately after PP with SoS, so you get a couple of the initial ticks of PP, reg SoS and all the ER ticks that join in the fun, but u gotta get the timing right so u may have to delay this to wait for the long CDs And finally for lethality and hybrid we would get a cull, with that whole volcano of dots that follow, and dam all those crits would hurt. I wouldn't know what to say, would be nice but certainly not necessary Edited August 24, 2013 by CJNJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) So i take it you two would rather have the old Laze Target than BW's new one? Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heal-To-Full Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) How about we be more creative? Make laze target upgrade your next Shatter Shot or Legshot damage to that of a Snipe, make ability itself count as a snipe for purposes of FT proccing. The problem with Snipers is they are a fairly weak class in PvP. Now, I can hear even weaker classes complaining. Yes. But people rolled snipers just to be PvP DPS... and if you look at top Arena compositions, none of them include snipers. Powertechs are represented even , but no snipers. Snipers don't need more creative tricks. They have plenty of tricks... just that no one cares about tricks. What snipers need, especially with the advent of Arena PvP, is to be the class with top single target burst. In all other regards, Marauders and Juggs are simply so much better. They are far tougher, they protect you instead of needing protection, they disrupt the enemy instead of trying to defend against disruption. A sniper brings nothing to a deathmatch team that already has Juggs or Maras as DPS. As of todays, Maras and Juggs also have better burst with their Smash attack. They are strictly superior. It shouldn't be nerfed. Smashers is the only thing with a chance to actually kill opponents on a ranked team. And high-end PvP can use more killing. What should be done is Sniper PvP burst to be powered up beyond what a Warrior can deliver. This comes at great expense of being single target instead of AoE, and being delivered by a fragile stationary class instead of an unstoppable leaper. With all that in mind, I would propose that Laze Target increases the critical chance of your next attack by 100% and makes it, at least, ignore Guard. Preferably outright make it so that your next attack can not be dodged, mitigated, or intercepted. Of course with an exception for complete immunity type boss shields. It won't be OP, it's just one shot in 2-3 minutes. But at least making it ignore Guard will give Snipers that special something in PvP that will make them worth consideration, with zero impact on PvE. And PvP can use a counter to guarded healers, because if in 8v8 you can at least burn down the tank, in 4v4 you can't do even that. Edited August 24, 2013 by B-Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Because in the first place, no amount of justification will convince BW to give us a strong and "biased" buff to Laze Target Smuggler's Luck . even though we don't have a "Recklessness" kind of cooldown, we do enough sustained single target and aoe dot fluff DPS as it is , we are lucky they are even open to giving as a STRONGER BURST in the form of auto-crit Ambush/EP and TD. Their version of Laze Target is very nice compared to what we have right now. We should take this chance. Well yeah, we take whatever we can grab. But i really really don't know if guaranteeing an ambush to crit every 2,5 minutes or so really useful to us. It's at best some extra 3000 damage out there. And in PvP we might as well just have your ambush reflected, deflected, missing, interrupted by diversion, stuns and who knows what. I have a gripe with current snipe in the game. I don't like this double snipe business they did with MM for ambush reactive shots and FT resets. The second snipe will always be hard casted if the first one is snap shotted. And this is something that just drives me mad. One more thing: how often we find ourselves paying one GCD for shatter shot incovenient for our rotation in PvP? I have this situation quite often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) The problem with Snipers is they are a fairly weak class in PvP. Now, I can hear even weaker classes complaining. Yes. But people rolled snipers just to be PvP DPS... and if you look at top Arena compositions, none of them include snipers. Powertechs are represented even , but no snipers. Snipers don't need more creative tricks. They have plenty of tricks... just that no one cares about tricks. What snipers need, especially with the advent of Arena PvP, is to be the class with top single target burst. In all other regards, Marauders and Juggs are simply so much better. They are far tougher, they protect you instead of needing protection, they disrupt the enemy instead of trying to defend against disruption. A sniper brings nothing to a deathmatch team that already has Juggs or Maras as DPS. As of todays, Maras and Juggs also have better burst with their Smash attack. They are strictly superior. It shouldn't be nerfed. Smashers is the only thing with a chance to actually kill opponents on a ranked team. And high-end PvP can use more killing. What should be done is Sniper PvP burst to be powered up beyond what a Warrior can deliver. This comes at great expense of being single target instead of AoE, and being delivered by a fragile stationary class instead of an unstoppable leaper. With all that in mind, I would propose that Laze Target increases the critical chance of your next attack by 100% and makes it ignore Guard. Preferably ignore all defenses except for complete immunity type boss shields, it won't be OP, it's just one shot in 2-3 minutes. But at least making it ignore Guard will give Snipers that special something in PvP that will make them worth consideration, with zero impact on PvE. no no no, it's wayyy too powerful what you are asking. This would lead to a massive QQ storm against snipers. Don't forget that we are the ones that send smashers to respawn. MM is the most powerful smash spec killer in the game simply because we can make crit smashes completely harmless to us with our siege bunker + ballistic dampers + armor (smash is kinetic damage). And all that without even popping our ballistic shield which got improved in 2.0. You cannot go the route of just MORE damage for the snipers. We have been accused already too often of being an easy class to play. Edited August 24, 2013 by NoTomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Well yeah, we take whatever we can grab. But i really really don't know if guaranteeing an ambush to crit every 2,5 minutes or so really useful to us. It's at best some extra 3000 damage out there. And in PvP we might as well just have your ambush reflected, deflected, missing, interrupted by diversion, stuns and who knows what. I have a gripe with current snipe in the game. I don't like this double snipe business they did with MM for ambush reactive shots and FT resets. The second snipe will always be hard casted if the first one is snap shotted. And this is something that just drives me mad. One more thing: how often we find ourselves paying one GCD for shatter shot incovenient for our rotation in PvP? I have this situation quite often. This is better than a 4000 Snipe every 1 minute, if you remember to use it, on an ability that always critically hits in the first place. In PVP: Laze Target scenario: 1.5 sec 8000 ambush - 6000 followthrough in 1.5 seconds is better than 1.5 sec 4000 snipe - 1.5 sec 4000 snipe - 6000 followthrough in 3 seconds The Lazed Target ambush is a better on-demand reliable BURST DPS combo than what our current Laze Target can ever be. This thread is not a discussion for what individuals want for Laze Target, but finding out which one among us wants to KEEP THE OLD LAZE TARGET , and which one among us WANTS IT CHANGED AS PER BW's OWN SUGGESTION. In PVE This is a perfect and nice change ideal for burst and burn phases. Kephess The Undying, Dread Master Styrak post Ghost Dragon, etc Relic + Adrenal + Marauder buffed automatic crit on Ambush for Marksman, on EP for Engineering, and TD for Lethality. Not an astronomical buff, nor should we ask for one, but at least Laze Target is more usual for other specializations (not just MM). Plus it would be nice to see back to back Ambush crits. Dread master styrak Snipe snipe ft - ambush (crit) ft - sos ft Snipe snipe ft - lazed ambush (crit) ft - sos ft Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJNJ Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) So i take it you two would rather have the old Laze Target than BW's new one? New one without 3 sec crit buff (EP, Ambush, TD) to be completely even with all 3 specs, as those 3 moves hit rather close. Possibly add some damage to TD in lethality to be completely in line. The crit buff for 3 sec is something we don't need to make the CD longer Edited August 24, 2013 by CJNJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heal-To-Full Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) no no no, it's wayyy too powerful what you are asking. This would lead to a massive QQ storm against snipers. Don't forget that we are the ones that send smashers to respawn. There's no respawn in Ranked Arenas... and no snipers, either. And won't be unless there is a significant PvP specific buff. I feel for other classes, but their problems should be addressed separately. This one isn't just a class balance issue, it's a PvP diversity issue. If Snipers aren't given something offensively useful in PvP, new arenas will be left with strictly one DPS class, Warriors. Don't compare to the worst class, compare to the best class. Anything that narrows the gap between the best and the second best is a good thing. You cannot go the route of just MORE damage for the snipers. We have been accused already too often of being an easy class to play. Yes. But ignoring Guard isn't more damage. Total damage is the same. It's simply being able, once in 100 attacks, make just 1 guaranteed to damage who you want to damage. All it amounts to is being able, after massive effort and coordination from your team it takes to bring a ranked healer's health down, have one shot at actually making it a kill instead of a harmless hp bar dip. That said, I will take the proposed change. But I would strongly urge Bioware to consider counter-mechanic to "turtle" Arena compositions, and if any class should be used as the counter, Sniper is the first one to come to mind. After all, the very idea of a real-life sniper is someone who can take out high-value targets without going through every grunt first. Edited August 24, 2013 by B-Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 NoT, Bdick, do you guys want the old laze target or the new one? Or neither? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heal-To-Full Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) I'm in favor: That said, I will take the proposed change. But, while at it, I'd also like some PvP specific utility to be added. Edited August 24, 2013 by B-Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsakenKing Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) honestly, with the way crit works right now, i would rather remove all auto crit abilities from the game but that is a different discussion lol Edited August 24, 2013 by ForsakenKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falver Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Signed. My largest frustration with the sharpshooter/marksman spec is the fact that I need to rely on RNG for crits on both flyby and aimed shot. I'll even take LESS DPS if it's more consistent parse to parse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckeyduckey Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Eh, even though I don't play it, I'd say change it. It would be awesome for arenas (or unbalanced?) Keep that in mind, because all cooldowns finish in arenas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telanis Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I favour the change, longer cooldown is fine if we can use it with Ambush! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Eh, even though I don't play it, I'd say change it. It would be awesome for arenas (or unbalanced?) Keep that in mind, because all cooldowns finish in arenas. That remains to be seen. But honestly an 8k auto crit every 2 - 3 minutes is a /lol comparison to how much other classes can and already are BURSTING for every few seconds in PVP. /biased But in all seriousness, BW acknowledges the fact that this 2 year old LAZE TARGET / SMUGGLER'S LUCK leaves a bit to be desired. They asked a question, and we should answer! Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathemagica Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I vote for the new Laze Target. I think it wouldn't break balance and I see it as a situational improvement, because you can increase your short-term damage by a larger amount with the new version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) forsaken king - no vote? falver - yes lucky - yes telanis - yes mathegmaica - yes Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyroman Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I would very much like the new lazed target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsakenKing Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) forsaken king - no vote? I'll go with no. i dont believe finishers should have an auto-crit proc. That and it would make the Aim High skill in the MM/SS tree (dont know its sniper counterpart) slightly less useful since that already gives 15% crit chance to quickdraw/takedown. if you take that off and take off the 3min cooldown, im ok with 2/2.5, then it would be a yes. Edited August 24, 2013 by ForsakenKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) I'll go with no. i dont believe finishers should have an auto-crit proc. That and it would make the Aim High skill in the MM/SS tree (dont know its sniper counterpart) slightly less useful since that already gives 15% crit chance to quickdraw/takedown. if you take that off and take off the 3min cooldown, im ok with 2/2.5, then it would be a yes. Cooldown is going to be increased by at least 100%. Its eithr 2min cd or 3 min cd. Example is for MM SPEC ONLY (Laze target now affecting Ambush or EP or TD) SUSTAINED DPS 4k every 1 minute on snipe or 8k every 2 or 3 minutes on ambush BURST DPS 4k 4k 6k (laze snipe snipe ft) = 3 seconds on-demand burst DPS in pvp or new laze target/smuggler's luck 8k 6k (laze ambush ft) = 1.5 seconds on-demand burst DPS in pvp 8k 6k 8k (rng crit ambush, ft, lazed takedown/quickdraw) = 3 seconds on-demand burst DPS execute range in pvp Thanks for your participation. I'll update the front page. Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffyburrito Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I simply think that the last thing our class needs is more buffs. I'm very much okay with our current state, and I even think we're a bit TOO powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) I simply think that the last thing our class needs is more buffs. I'm very much okay with our current state, and I even think we're a bit TOO powerful. The new laze target is a slight nerf to sustained in MM PVE (according to a post by Lift from the Harbinger server repost of this thread). Again the context was "boring" and lackluster 2-year old cooldown. An ability that leaves a lot to be desired. No one ever thinks of using it because it has such a miniscule impact in PVE and PVP. I'm happy that BioWare is OC and is open to helping us enjoy this class a bit better by suggesting they could change this ability to affect abilities other than Snipe (which is only ever really useful for one spec, which is MM/SS). I'll write you down as NO. Thanks! Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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