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Galactic Starfighter (GSF) Suggestions

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Galactic Starfighter (GSF) Suggestions

DakhathKilrathi's Avatar


DakhathKilrathi
10.19.2019 , 11:50 PM | #11
I'm going to repeat the very last point in my previous post, since you didn't (and haven't) address(ed) it:

GSF is a group game. You decide whether or not you want to choose who is in your group. You don't have to, but you will be in a group regardless. Matchmaking is essentially RNG, so even if what you are suggesting was reasonable (and it's not), it wouldn't work.


To the second post: The idea that games played or components mastered means anything at all about a player's skill or ability is, frankly, absurd. As mentioned previously. The game already does what you're suggesting, though probably in a way that's better implemented. It still doesn't work because those are silly metrics.

Quote:
I am hopeful that those of us as a player base can come up with constructive ideas on how to better one aspect of our enjoyment that we derive from SWTOR, which is Galactic Starfighter!"
We have suggested an idea for that, that we as players can implement: we can form groups! It's pretty easy, and makes up for bad matchmaking.

Notable: I say this as a dedicated and stubborn solo player. I wish solo was less frustrating, but I don't blame the groups for this problem.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
10.20.2019 , 10:09 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by myrrhbear View Post
Honestly the level of ad hominem hostility being directed at me in this discussion is really disturbing.
It's not an ad hominem attack. No one is avoiding discussing your points- everyone has explained why your givens are wrong and your conclusions are wrong. The separate facts (that you lost, claimed you were better than other players in 1v1 (irrelevant and wrong), had that proven in a 1v1, posted salt in /ops, /gsf, the GSF Discord, then cried to Dakhath for literally hours, and now are here on the forums carrying on without addressing any of the things that have been discussed) are all relevant as well.

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I simply made the request that people be mindful and respectful of others in GSF.
NO, you did nothing this simple. Do you see why the facts are important? You didn't "simply request" anything, you flooded all chat forums available to you with salt, challenged a 1v1 (an irrelevant thing, btw), were indulged in this and got absolutely massacred, went to Discord, and went to forums, where you are currently begging the devs to make it so that groups can't queue and can't play because you want to win more in pvp and believe that changing the game would result in this. You want the entire game to be remade for you.

To this point, however, beating you in a pvp isn't a lack of mindfulness or respect, winning pvp matches is literally the point of pvp matches.

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If you know you are strong pilots and you queue as a group, and you wipe the floor with the opposing team repeatedly, it is game breaking for everyone else.
Nothing about this is game breaking though. GSF is a team game, 8v8 or 12v12, and the stronger team wins almost all of the time. What's game breaking about that occurring?

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The devs implemented an attempt to create more balanced matches by ranking pilots, and having them automatically separated and sorted to the two teams according to skill.
Actually no, they set them up according to experience, not skill. And said experience reviews your stuff account-wide (or at least server-wide per account). And this counts your most "experienced" pilot in group as if everyone in the group were that pilot.

It is very much not according to skill, however, as the game doesn't have a way to measure that as a metric- there's no ranking or rating or whatever.

This is one of your givens that is incorrect, despite being told as such by many players.

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This only seems to function when people queue individually.
It applies a harsher logic to groups, actually, as you've also been told, wherein everyone in the group is queued as if they are the most experienced person in the group.

This is one of your givens that is incorrect, despite being told as such by many players.

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However when people queue as a group together, all balance is lost.
This is also a given that is incorrect.

As has been explained- in this thread and other places- the GSF matchmaker isn't making many matches by skill in the first place. It is not bad at dealing with truly new players, but the difference between two experienced players can be really vast. The existing matchmaker isn't great at this, and it doesn't get appreciably worse than bad when you queue with groups. The matchmaker is pretty ok at taking two premades and splitting them on opposite sides- it doesn't do so 100% of the time, but it does do so much more than chance would dictate.

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the fact remains that GSF becomes basically unplayable during the periods when groups of expert pilots queue together as a team
What you actually mean is "I can't win when I get placed against a premade, and I'm not willing to make my own, so please stop them from having fun".

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My request of my fellow players is some consideration for the balance, and simply to please, if you notice after a couple of matches that you are clearly destroying the balance, to by all means keep queing and enjoying the game, but queue individually so that the game has a chance to balance the two teams.
Oh, that's it? Ok, then let me answer, for me personally:

No.

We're done here now, right?

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The suggestion that was aimed at me, that I should just find a group of my own if I don't like it, doesn't seem realistic.
Does "invite to group" not work on your UI? Are you banned from all Discords? Why is it not realistic?

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On the drop of a hat, at any random time when a group of 4 elite pilots happens to form a team and start queuing, I'm not suddenly going to be able to find an equal number of basically equally skilled pilots to form a second team.
Do you think this is what normally happens? You could form a group at a time you normally play, and then play with that group at that time. That's literally what every group in the game does, after all.

And of course, people do form groups sometimes, at the drop of a hat. There's GSF chat, there's Discord, and there's all the other mechanisms that the game allows for this. This then comes back to my earlier points which you seem to feel are "ad hominem"- you don't even do this. When beaten, you demand that groups be kicked out of the game.

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So if there aren't more people who want to form a second team then instead of wrecking the game for everyone else you could split your current team of 4 , for example, into two teams of 2, still allowing a chance that the GSF teams can be balanced, and fun for everyone.
Nah, hard pass.

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Until such time as our developers find a way to mitigate this imbalance through an internal mechanic, the best I can do is ask my fellow pilots to choose
"Until I can convince the devs to remove you by force, I will appeal to your better nature and my redefinition of the goals of the game, which I hope you will adhere to instead of playing to win."

What a compelling argument.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
10.20.2019 , 10:20 AM | #13
Continuing the thread:

Dakhath's points are all solid as well. GSF is a team based combat game, with a matchmaker that only really tries to sort roughly by gear and experience. Choosing to get random teammates when this is a self-imposed restriction is ultimately on you.

As to the posts you are bringing over from the ea forums:
The details of how matchmaker could work are not a terrible idea, but you wouldn't need to arbitrarily assign points for this or for that. You could base the whole thing off of win percent and it would be a reasonably solid system, you could do rankings and it would be a lot better. I'm pretty sure the devs know all this, and maybe one day they will do something that counts more things. The devs already:

1)- Got rid of the never-intended 8 man premade
2)- Got rid of the high probability game that one team is entirely unupgraded and the other is not
3)- Counts premades as higher than the sum of their parts

If they added win percent as a metric for choosing teams, that would do a bunch more. If they actually added a stack ranking internally, that would do even more. I think matchmaker is not the smartest script in the land already, and most times we have seen it modified results in it not popping games with enough players on, etc. One day we may see further improvements.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

cheese_cake's Avatar


cheese_cake
10.20.2019 , 11:04 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by myrrhbear View Post
The suggestion that was aimed at me, that I should just find a group of my own if I don't like it, doesn't seem realistic. On the drop of a hat, at any random time when a group of 4 elite pilots happens to form a team and start queuing, I'm not suddenly going to be able to find an equal number of basically equally skilled pilots to form a second team. I don't have the metrics available that the game's internal mechanic has for sorting pilots according to skill level, and finding several top notch pilots at a moment's notice just because another group has formed, is often not going to be available.
This bugs me the most. You're not supposed to be able to find random people at the drop of the hat that can instantly go toe to toe against better teams.You're supposed to find like minded people who will put in the time & effort to cultivate each other until the group as a whole becomes the better team. In any team based PvP game your carefully selected team will absolutely come across a better one & get squashed. It takes a lot of time, effort, and passion as a team to improve as a whole before taking on better teams.

Rather than demand others not play the game as intended, here is an actionable plan you can implement on your own just by willing it:
  • Determine other pilots of merit. You can do this by looking at the end game score board. Perhaps take top few names down. Pick whoever on the opposing team you felt gave you the most trouble during the match. Or if you slaughtered the other team think about who did their best despite the situation.
  • Invite them to group. Plain and simple. Not everyone will accept. You have to be consistent and persevere.
  • Group with the same people regularly. Again you need to persevere until you find friends who will group consistently & regularly.

After that you & your merry band will begin the journey of getting good as a team. Your team will get squashed every now & then, but you have to pick each other up & press on. You will eventually learn how your team plays & each other's quirks. You will learn how to help each other shine the most. You will improve each other collaboratively.

In the wise words of a particular French purple mineral, why can't GSF-ers learn to do what every PvE-er in the game picks up easily?

If you refuse to do these simple steps, you need to be honest with yourself that team based PvP is not for you. No one is given a great team on a silver platter. You work hard together to polish what you have.

depeshmood's Avatar


depeshmood
12.23.2019 , 07:55 AM | #15
I would like to first start off by thanking myrrhbear for having copied my posts to the GSF forums, in my hope that matchmaking and match types could be better optimized.

Please keep in mind that my suggestions are here for players to discuss, but my overall goal would be to have the devs implement.

MATCHMAKING
The matchmaking aspect for GSF could definitely be better optimized and I feel that Verain is on the right track.
Spoiler


If the devs could use better metrics to better balance the matches then I think that would help quite a bit. There really are quite a few stats that not only could, but should, be used at a per toon level to match players together. (This actually carries over to warzones too)

SCALING MATCHES
I've already mentioned this, but here it is again, which I think could help with the queue times and keep the overall match times more in balanced, based on the number of players in the matches.
Spoiler


I know that there has been various discussion about premade aspects.
For me personally, I am not able to use voice chat when I game since I have a family that is typically sleeping when I game and will easily hear. As a side note, I am just relieved that I'm currently a subscriber and can now pass on relying on GSF as a leveling tool for all of my new toons.
Ultimately, you cannot make players not do something as long as the game client allows it.

I am hopeful that the devs might actually have read something in this thread and think it would do some good if they could do something to improve upon what they've done in the past.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
12.24.2019 , 10:16 AM | #16
Quote:
If the devs could use better metrics to better balance the matches then I think that would help quite a bit.
I feel the if the devs used a second metric, to say nothing of actual plural metrics, that it would help quite a bit. Based on how it seems to lump players with a few hundred games in with players with a few thousand, while doing its best to treat actual fresh players differently, I think it's fair to say that the goal of the current system- helping actual fresh players be paired with strong teammates more often than chance would dictate- is kinda being achieved. The issue of course, is that no one who has ever complained on the forums, the GSF Discord, or reddit, is actually one of these fresh players. Having skulked around on alts an inordinate amount of time, the most common theme that I see is this: "Player or players stomp queue for hours, eventually find a premade that they have a thin chance of beating, complain about this fact".

I've said in other threads what I hope for matchmaker to eventually incorporate- win/loss (the only metric you cannot cheese in the winward direction), or a ranking solution, even if not strictly adhered to. The advantage of win/loss over every cheesable metric (k/d, damage, assists) is pretty obvious, and win/loss is already tracked. Ideally, however, you'd use something that takes into account who you won versus, as the various hidden matchmaking ratings across video gaming tend to do.

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SCALING MATCHES
There's several large problems with scaling matches.

First, games have an amount of time that they "should" last. This is invariant on the number of players. A few years ago this was 15 to 20- currently it is more like 10-15. This isn't GSF-wide, or SWTOR-wide, or MMO-wide, it's industry wide. So in general, screwing with match length deliberately isn't acceptable. You could, in some of your sample cases, get the game to the correct time length by having one or two fire off, in the same way that some game modes split have team A attack and team B defend, then flip this around.
There's another more SWTOR-reason for not offering games that scale down so dramatically- when calculating how much reward per minute you get in an MMO, you have to count time-in-queue in some fashion, then the entire game itself as exclusive time (you can be doing story while sitting in queue, but you can't be doing story or picking flowers while in Kuat TDM). Any time-based things would need to have robust answers to this, such that a 4 minute game would be slightly less than one third as good as a 12 minute game. The problem is, this is not at all straightforward- some rewards are based on the win or the loss, such as daily and weekly quest completion and conquest objectives, others are based on medals acquired, and if players in a 4 minute match are scrambling for medals, well, that's a big issue. This idea doesn't strike me as intractable- merely very complex.

So, lets handwave all the reward stuff and pretend there's a good solution to the timed thing.
What do these scaled matches get people? What great victory is won for the community?
The only beneficial thing that I can see is the ability for matches to continue popping absolutely 24-7 on all servers. A game with only 8 players on it, versus the current minimum of 16, could likely be made more often- constantly even. This doesn't strike me as amazing, but it does strike me as pretty good- the game is healthy on most servers, but has issues on servers with crashed population, after all.
But the cost?
It requires intense development time. It requires serious balance issues, as 4 man teams result in serious meta shifting issues (ships that are fair in 8v8 can be totally useless or kinda OP in 4v4- the meta in 4v4 is smaller than 8v8 or 12v12). Domination requires special rules or it devolves into 1v1s (pure 1v1s, the game is absolutely not balanced around). TDM has less serious issues, but is still quite serious. If only one actually good pilot is on, he can swing a 12v12 on live, but it almost feels fair. He can swing an 8v8 much more reliably. A 4v4, a single good solo pilot will almost always result in a win for his team, and a loss for the other team. And of course, if it puts a premade 4 versus 4 solo queues, the match will be a massive stomp, more so than seen on live.

All that being said, I do think scaling matches could be done. I just think it would take developers monitoring and tuning for a smallish gain, and it strikes me as unlikely to be something that will happen- it's certainly not at the top of my wishlist.

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For me personally, I am not able to use voice chat when I game since
If you can't use voice chat, you should lose more often than if you are able to use voice chat. Voice chat is helpful in any meaningful game based on teamwork and reactions, and if you can't use it for any reason, you lose more and win less than if you were able to use it.

One thing you might look into would be something where you could translate button presses into chatter in Discord, similar to how addons can help with callouts into /bg chat in WoW. You can't automate anything into chat in SWTOR /ops (that would be a TOS violation), but if some three button chord on your keyboard typed "two inc C" into Discord, I suspect that wouldn't mess with SWTOR's TOS, and might help you play in voice with people when your household is asleep. I'm not aware of such a product; it just seems likely to exist.
I've also played with a few people who whisper into voice over the years for precisely your reason; it's not at all unreasonable to folks on the other side of the voice chat, if that is your concern.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Kraysk's Avatar


Kraysk
12.26.2019 , 04:18 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
TLDR.
I pretty much agree on everything you say, maybe except this sentence
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
The advantage of win/loss over every cheesable metric (k/d, damage, assists) is pretty obvious, and win/loss is already tracked.
Why do i think that win/loss is not the best metric? Lets look at myself as an example. I am awful very low-skilled pilot, or even worse, yet on some of my characters i do have pretty decent win/lose percentage because for a long time i was in a guild with some actual aces and great pilots and flew alot of matches in premade groups with them.
K/D ratio is much closer to reality, in my humble opinion.
Musta Aurinko / Musta Leski / Musta Veri / Helvetissa / Ikiyossa
Gui'Ro'Inn / Ankhrithor Loin / Musta Liekki

DakhathKilrathi's Avatar


DakhathKilrathi
12.26.2019 , 08:33 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kraysk View Post
I pretty much agree on everything you say, maybe except this sentence

Why do i think that win/loss is not the best metric? Lets look at myself as an example. I am awful very low-skilled pilot, or even worse, yet on some of my characters i do have pretty decent win/lose percentage because for a long time i was in a guild with some actual aces and great pilots and flew alot of matches in premade groups with them.
K/D ratio is much closer to reality, in my humble opinion.
Win/loss is objectively better. Even in the circumstances you're outlining, that is a self-correcting problem. It doesn't give anyone an advantage for cheesing.

Meanwhile I've got a ship where I have a KDR of 63. That's not an exaggeration. I played it very conservatively. A more realistic look at my KDR puts it closer to 3.5 - 4 these days. Additionally, in domination I (and many of the best players) am(are) far more likely to just eat a death if it saves time. If that's the right call, it increases our chances of winning.

On the other side of things, it would be pretty easy to tank your MMR by self-destructing in dom more than you need to. You could still win even if you're doing that, so long as you only do it in domination. You can't cheese win/loss that way.

Dimitir's Avatar


Dimitir
12.30.2019 , 06:46 AM | #19
First thing that would need a change though, is the bad habit of the matchmaker to try and form the highest number of people in a group (12).
How many times matches ended after 30 seconds, because there were 12 people in one group and 2-3 in the other, instead of forming an equal 6v6 or 8v8 group and put remaining players in other queues where they can be matched with other waiting people in smaller groups than frigging 12

djmurloc's Avatar


djmurloc
01.01.2020 , 01:48 PM | #20
Allow joysticks ffs.
Kellers Void/ The Lev beta tester
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